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Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,11:16) 
Sure, there is certainly more than one definition for anything. But why search for another definition just because one doesn't fit what you want to believe? We do that so much around here, don't we (myself included).
MandyNo there was no searching. When NH said the scritpures were sound that is what comes to my mind.
WJ
Hi not3,
I agree with WJ that there is one Spirit that speaks one message of truth.
We are all deaf to a degree.Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,11:18) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,11:16) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,11:11) Keith, I do trust the Spirit and what God tells me. But I do not hold other's to it's message because I can plainly see that Spirit gives other's different messages……
MandySo the Spirit of God speaks one thing to someone and then speaks something contradictory to someone else?
WJ
That's a ROGER. A big 10-4 there, good buddy.
You and I are perfect examples of the Spirit telling us two different things.
What do you make of it?
Nick,
If one Spirit speaks to all, how do you explain the Spirit telling Keith and I two different stories? Are we not listening good enough? We're deaf? Maybe Keith has sin in his life (Keith, I'll let you be the sinner in this scenerio, OK? Ha). Or maybe we don't belong to the right denomination? Perhaps we are of the whore?I've heard so many reasons (read: excuses) as to why the “Spirit” doesn't speak the same accross the board.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,11:18) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,11:16) Sure, there is certainly more than one definition for anything. But why search for another definition just because one doesn't fit what you want to believe? We do that so much around here, don't we (myself included).
MandyNo there was no searching. When NH said the scritpures were sound that is what comes to my mind.
WJ
MandyBut what comes to many when the scriptures are mentioned is “corrupt”.
You know I am done with this conversation.
I think it is sad that believers debate over the soundness of the scriptures.
How can we tell anyone in the world to accept any scripture that we quote?
Blessings to you Mandy! But I don't hold your view and unfortunatly scriptures say that unless 2 are agreed how can they walk together.
We cannot even come to agreement over the written scriptures then how in the world can we come to agreement on any other truth?
WJ
Hi Mandy,
Is the Spirit doing this?
Surely your God is not so small?
Our mind enlarges by eating the bread of heaven.
If we would all do more listening we would progress maybe?OK guys,
This horse is dead. I certainly don't want Keith to get all upset and throw in the towel with those of us who question the absoluteness of the bible. For reasons given here there is ample reason to doubt that all scripture we have in hand is accurate. However blind faith can overcome this and does in the vast majority of believer's. This is perfectly fine with me…..I still think we can walk together down this road of life and love one another. Again, be careful of drawing those absolute lines in the sand.Take care brothers,
MandyKeith has taken his ball and gone home…..
Your riding off on your horse….I guess I better get back to doing laundry!
Thanks for the chat Nick (and Keith if you are still listening somewhere…)
Later,
MandyQuote However blind faith can overcome this and does in the vast majority of believer's. Your statement reminds me of this scripture. Maybe this has something to do with it.
2 CORINTHIANS 4:4
“. . . . the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.”Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2008,17:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,10:09) In the end God will show who is telling the truth and who is not.
You had me until this line above…..I don't believe it's that cut and dry. If it were, I would consider God to be extremely unfair for giving us a collection of books that can be interpreted a zillion ways to Sunday and then expect us to find the black-and-white-absolute-truth.
If God indeed “gave” you the bible. Who is to say s/he did not give you something else to lead you and the bible is merely a distraction, written by various authors with theological agendas?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2008,17:37) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,10:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:49) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,09:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,08:46) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,08:36) WJ,
Did God inspire the errors, too?
MandyThe errors are in translation and not the text.
But the errors you speak of are few and do no damage to the overall message of the Bible and the basic tenants of the faith.
WJ
But all we have are translations….
MandyNo, we also have Greek and Hebrew literall interlinears and concordances where we can examine Hebrew and Greek meanings for ourselves.
WJ
Question:Did the texts you ref to above have an original copy of the scriptures to work from?
not3So you think that because there is a few errors then it is not to be trusted?
Is it entirely possible that God is able to preserve his inspired written word?
Sorry Mandy. Call it blind faith. But I do not approach the Holy scriptures with the attitude that it is corrupt.
And in fact my faith is not solely based on the written word but also in the Spirit of Truth that confirms the things written.
If I believed that the scriptures are corrupt then what is the point have these discussions. For there is no final authority is there?
Yeshua spoke of the scriptures many times and the Apostles claimed to have a direct revelation from the Lord, and the 1000s of manuscripts from all over the world from various times have very few discrepencies and most of those are in punctuation or a missed letter.
However many put more faith in the local newspaper than in the soundest document in the history of man.
WJ
The inerrancy and infallibility of the bible was the result of Martin Luther's reform. The Catholic church would have you believe that the Pope is infallible. The late-coming Protestant church came up with a counter argument that the bible is infallible.Neither is true.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2008,17:56) Hi not3,
Sooner or later you will have to go back to trusting God as we have nothing useful to offer.
The bible is sound. More trustworthy than any man.
Trust God, not a book. But I found out long ago that your god is a book, Nick. well, 66 of them to be more accurate. That makes you a polytheist
.Hi Nick
When no lies are found it “all” becomes truth, in portions each is trusted, light is then never separated from darkness, and truth is never seen when there is no adversary. where there’s no offenders there is no need of judgment, where there’s no Judgement there was never a need to establish Law, Where there’s no Laws Made there”s nothing over offensive beyond our own vanity from the beginning, where God was invented and became somthing to be offended that we may be in need of forgiveness with every breath of fresh air -charityZec 13:3 And it shall come to pass, [that] when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
For he honour the prophet that teachers the Lie
Isa 9:15 The ancient and honourable, he [is] the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he [is] the tail.
Of whom is the most ancient Prophet they see, even the first Head of Lies, was that adam or the serpent for both were wrong? And both fathers and heads?
How has wrong left off and become right?Should we assume that a witness is one that testifies of God, perceiving and teaching Lies about the Nature of God, starting from the beginning, as amongst the brethren, least he even is respected to take a pen up and write to us of his own discord and deceit? untill that the whole earth cry's under the force that only be called faith in Him!
Pro 6:19 A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Pro 14:25 A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful [witness] speaketh lies.Quote I wish the bible was more clear-cut. To Jesus, it was asked:
“Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?”Most people are interested in Jesus simply as a masterful storyteller and miracle worker, not as one to be served as Lord and to be unselfishly followed. They do not want to be disturbed in their view of things or their way of life. They do not want the message to penetrate to that extent.
“This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, ‘ . . . For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive.’”
The 12 apostles and those with them have receptive hearts. Therefore Jesus says: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted.”
The fact that a person sometimes has to dig to get their full, deep, heart-reaching meaning tends to turn back those who do not love God but who have a mere surface interest and therefore do not desire the truth in their hearts. God is not gathering such persons. Illustrations moved the humble ones to ask for further explanation; the proud refused to do so. Jesus said: “Let him that has ears listen,” and though the majority of the crowds hearing Jesus went their way, the disciples would come and ask for explanation.—Mt 13:9, 36.
Hi David,
Quote The 12 apostles and those with them have receptive hearts. Therefore Jesus says: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted.”
Do you count yourself amongst the group that is receptive and given true understanding? If so you have quite a few brother's here who also have the Spirit who would disagree with you! Quote Most people are interested in Jesus simply as a masterful storyteller and miracle worker, not as one to be served as Lord and to be unselfishly followed. They do not want to be disturbed in their view of things or their way of life. They do not want the message to penetrate to that extent.
I don't know anyone like that here, do you? When you say, “most people” I think you must be exagerating just a bit. Most Christians I know want God to the fullest. Especially those of us who log many hours here reading, listening and asking questions.So what is your point, David? You have my quote listed above, are you trying to imply that I do not really want to know God but just have a surface interest in the things of God?
Thanks,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,06:52) Quote (theodorej @ Aug. 20 2008,03:36) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,02:57) Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 19 2008,22:43) When people truly study the bible and finally think they have figured out the meaning, they are certain that the spirit has shown them the meaning.
In truth, it may only have been their own understanding.
It's disappointing, isn't it?Well, I believe you are correct. I have witnessed terrible treatment of brother's and sister's because someone was “led by the Spirit” to use “tough love” on someone. I'm not just talking here, but also out in everyday life.
Sometimes I think it's shame when someone is totally convinced of what they believe! It leaves no room to consider other's views in all honestly. It definitely leaves no room for your personal view to be called into question and God forbid! be wrong.
As I've said recently, an open mind is a terrible thing to lose.
I wish the bible was more clear-cut.
I wish relying on “the Spirit” led to more consistent outcomes for everyone.
I wish the God we are supposed to know would be more knowable.I wish, I wish, I wish…… I guess it is what it is. When the end of the day comes, we have our faith and we have love. Maybe that's all we really need?
Love,
Mandy
Greetings Mandy…..The Bible is the manufacturers operating manual,unfortunately,thanks to the misguided interpretation of the so called scholors,the bible is in many different languages and with that comes confusion…Faith in the existance of of God and his goverment and the hope in things to come is a pretty good foundation….The Torah (first 5 books of the bible ) is the only scripture that has indeed survived the sands of time…Until this day it is the same as it was 2000 plus years ago…
Hi Theo,Unfortunately knowing that the first five books are probably more accurate and genuine is not comforting in the least! It is within these books that many things are said of God that seem so uncompatible with a God of love, and a God who is the Father of all.
Love,
Mandy
Greetings Mandy…..A point well taken,and I must say that,there are times when I can't help but agree with you….Having said that,my feeling is ,at least in my case ,I need to revisit my understanding of just what Gods love entails…Perhaps the necessity for correction,because of our stuborn stiff necked nature was the only option available…Gods nature is one of love,and he will not be mocked,he is the essense of longsuffering and patience,as we can plainly see,with reference to the times we live in today…The level of brutality depicted in the OT is no more than the level of brutality we live with today,and rest assured when God steps in there will be carnage that has never been known by men nor ever will….God is not a respecter of Men..Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,11:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2008,10:56) Hi not3,
Sooner or later you will have to go back to trusting God as we have nothing useful to offer.
The bible is sound. More trustworthy than any man.
Hi Nick,Oh, I trust God alright. But God is not pages in a book or pew's in a building. He is Spirit and he teaches us what we need to know.
YES !! And if we seek him in honesty,he will reveal his truth…Mandy, I said:
They do not want to be disturbed in their view of things or their way of life. They do not want the message to penetrate to that extent.
Quote I don't know anyone like that here, do you? Yes. People are generally happy with the way they live, their way of life. They're happy with their celebrations, their beliefs, their attitudes, and they largely ignore scriptures that don't fit in with those beliefs.
Quote If so you have quite a few brother's here who also have the Spirit who would disagree with you!
If I didn't have so many that disagreed with me, I would feel something was wrong and would question my beliefs.Quote When you say, “most people” I think you must be exagerating just a bit. Most Christians I know want God to the fullest.
Do they? First, the people on this forum are not “most people” by any stretch of the imagination. The people you would meet on the street or in public who you try to discuss the Bible with–the Catholics, the Protestants, the anything else, they are the “most people.” And while they will all say this, notice Jesus words:MATTHEW 7:21-23
““Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.”I believe a lot are saying and not doing. I believe a big part of what God wants us to do, is to preach the good news of the kingdom to as many as will hear. (Mat 28:19,20; Mat 24:14) How many make an active effort to reach everyone?
Mandy, these ones that are saying “Lord, Lord” actually truly believe that they are doing what is acceptable. But they have deceived themselves, or allowed themselves to be deceived. (2 cor 4:4)
Quote Especially those of us who log many hours here reading, listening and asking questions.
I know a Catholic lady I call on who works for her church and spends hours doing volunteer work. She's always off to do something. But everything she believes is all wrong. I am not allowed to even mention certain things to her, like the idea that Mary may have had other children, something the Bible is extremley clear on…. Yet, she is ethusiastic about her beliefs. Yet, all wrong.ROMANS 10:2
“For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge;”Quote So what is your point, David? You have my quote listed above, are you trying to imply that I do not really want to know God but just have a surface interest in the things of God?
No, you are the one speaking about such things. I only quoted you saying:
I wish the bible was more clear-cut.And then I pointed out why some things aren't so clear cut, as in, why Jesus used Illustrations, something not everyone would understand–because they really didn't want to understand–it required effort.
I was not meaning to imply anything about you in that post. I was merely pointing out what Jesus said about why he spoke in illustrations, and hence, why the Bible is not clear cut.david
Good morning, Theo.
Quote I need to revisit my understanding of just what Gods love entails…Perhaps the necessity for correction,because of our stuborn stiff necked nature was the only option available
Very good point, brother. Love can look like discipline and correction. In fact we are told that our sonship is not even genuine unless we receive discipline. I have received much correction from the LORD, perhaps if nothing else, that is how I know I am his?However with that being said, when you discipline your child you do not discipline them unto death…..
Quote The level of brutality depicted in the OT is no more than the level of brutality we live with today
I agree with you here, however the brutality of the OT is credited to God himself.I certainly don't want you and other's to get the idea that I think the bible is useless. I do consider the bible to be a word of God. I didn't say THE word of God because I don't believe that the canon and God's mouth were closed at the same time. I respect those who believe it is the only word of God, I just would love it if they could respect my view (this seems a bit harder for some to do).
Love,
Mandy
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