The Manuscripts

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
If you know of error introduced by man should they make you stumble?
Or is it just the fear that there are other hidden errors that God will let slip by you?
If you let scripture interpret scripture and rely on proofs by scriptural support should that not help?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,08:36)

WJ, Did God inspire the errors, too?

Mandy

The errors are in translation and not the text.

But the errors you speak of are few and do no damage to the overall message of the Bible and the basic tenants of the faith.

WJ

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,08:46)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,08:36) WJ, Did God inspire the errors, too? Mandy The errors are in translation and not the text. But the errors you speak of are few and do no damage to the overall message of the Bible and the basic tenants of the faith. WJ

But all we have are translations….

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,08:41)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,08:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,08:30) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,08:28) But wait!  There have been reports of people doing skydiving and their shoots not opening up…and they survive!  So, scratch that absolute off my list….. Mandy So then in other words a man cannot be absolutely sure of his salvation or of his experience with God? WJ Not if it's based on a book that contains known errors.  But again, I don't think it's necessarily needed.  God said we can know him by looking at his creation. Hi Mandy So in other words there are absolutes. God existing is one. Right? So is it possible to know this God and be absolutely sure he exist? WJ

Why do I feel like I'm being backed into a corner?

When I think of an absolute, I think of something that is true and factual accross the board for everyone. Like, if you stop breathing you are dead.

For me, looking at creation is one way that I know God exists. But for Stu, it does not mean anything of the sort.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2008,08:44)

Hi not3, If you know of error introduced by man should they make you stumble? Or is it just the fear that there are other hidden errors that God will let slip by you? If you let scripture interpret scripture and rely on proofs by scriptural support should that not help?

1. Yes. Because man put the books together. Man added to the books. And the only thing we can say is the original text was OK. But that doesn't help those of us who do not possess a copy of the original.

2. Yes. We may not know until thousands of years pass that some information was added by a scribe. Look at all the poor souls who banked on 1 John 5:7 and were completely duped.

3. Yes. Error can confirm error. Ha! No, seriously, I do believe in the words contained in the bible and they do help in supporting other words. However, I do not put lock-stock-and-barrel in their inclusions/exclusions of human beings and doctine. I put my faith in God who is unseen and largely unknown today.

I look forward to the Day when we will see him and know…. Until then, gray exists for me. I cannot say I know for certain, 100% about anything written in the bible. Look at those who did and found out the dried ink had been tampered with.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,09:26)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,08:41) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,08:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,08:30) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,08:28) But wait!  There have been reports of people doing skydiving and their shoots not opening up…and they survive!  So, scratch that absolute off my list….. Mandy So then in other words a man cannot be absolutely sure of his salvation or of his experience with God? WJ Not if it's based on a book that contains known errors.  But again, I don't think it's necessarily needed.  God said we can know him by looking at his creation. Hi Mandy So in other words there are absolutes. God existing is one. Right? So is it possible to know this God and be absolutely sure he exist? WJ Why do I feel like I'm being backed into a corner?   When I think of an absolute, I think of something that is true and factual accross the board for everyone.  Like, if you stop breathing you are dead. For me, looking at creation is one way that I know God exists.  But for Stu, it does not mean anything of the sort.

Mandy

No backing you into a corner You either believe you can be absolutely sure of some things or you don't.

I believe there are absolutes. I am absolutely sure that stu is an atheist and does not know God.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,09:31)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2008,08:44) Hi not3, If you know of error introduced by man should they make you stumble? Or is it just the fear that there are other hidden errors that God will let slip by you? If you let scripture interpret scripture and rely on proofs by scriptural support should that not help? 1.  Yes.  Because man put the books together.  Man added to the books.  And the only thing we can say is the original text was OK.  But that doesn't help those of us who do not possess a copy of the original. 2.  Yes.  We may not know until thousands of years pass that some information was added by a scribe.  Look at all the poor souls who banked on 1 John 5:7 and were completely duped. 3.  Yes.  Error can confirm error.  Ha!  No, seriously, I do believe in the words contained in the bible and they do help in supporting other words.  However, I do not put lock-stock-and-barrel in their inclusions/exclusions of human beings and doctine.  I put my faith in God who is unseen and largely unknown today. I look forward to the Day when we will see him and know….  Until then, gray exists for me.  I cannot say I know for certain, 100% about anything written in the bible.  Look at those who did and found out the dried ink had been tampered with.

Mandy

How are they poor souls?

1 John 5:7 or the lack of it does not break down scriptures that support the Trinitarian view.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,09:24)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,08:46) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,08:36) WJ, Did God inspire the errors, too? Mandy The errors are in translation and not the text. But the errors you speak of are few and do no damage to the overall message of the Bible and the basic tenants of the faith. WJ But all we have are translations….

Mandy

No, we also have Greek and Hebrew literall interlinears and concordances where we can examine Hebrew and Greek meanings for ourselves.

WJ

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:40)

I believe there are absolutes. I am absolutely sure that stu is an atheist and does not know God.

Hmmmm

With all due respect bro, you may want to reconsider this “absolute”. For no man knows another's heart….

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:45)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,09:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2008,08:44) Hi not3, If you know of error introduced by man should they make you stumble? Or is it just the fear that there are other hidden errors that God will let slip by you? If you let scripture interpret scripture and rely on proofs by scriptural support should that not help? 1.  Yes.  Because man put the books together.  Man added to the books.  And the only thing we can say is the original text was OK.  But that doesn't help those of us who do not possess a copy of the original. 2.  Yes.  We may not know until thousands of years pass that some information was added by a scribe.  Look at all the poor souls who banked on 1 John 5:7 and were completely duped. 3.  Yes.  Error can confirm error.  Ha!  No, seriously, I do believe in the words contained in the bible and they do help in supporting other words.  However, I do not put lock-stock-and-barrel in their inclusions/exclusions of human beings and doctine.  I put my faith in God who is unseen and largely unknown today. I look forward to the Day when we will see him and know….  Until then, gray exists for me.  I cannot say I know for certain, 100% about anything written in the bible.  Look at those who did and found out the dried ink had been tampered with. Mandy How are they poor souls? 1 John 5:7 or the lack of it does not break down scriptures that support the Trinitarian view. WJ

According to you….

But it was the ONLY verse that confirmed the trinity, literally. Without it, questions arise naturally.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,09:53)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:40) I believe there are absolutes. I am absolutely sure that stu is an atheist and does not know God. Hmmmm With all due respect bro, you may want to reconsider this “absolute”.  For no man knows another's heart….

Mandy

So then you would say that stu is not telling the truth when he says this?

stu with his own words says so. Why should I doubt him?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,09:55)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:45) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,09:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2008,08:44) Hi not3, If you know of error introduced by man should they make you stumble? Or is it just the fear that there are other hidden errors that God will let slip by you? If you let scripture interpret scripture and rely on proofs by scriptural support should that not help? 1.  Yes.  Because man put the books together.  Man added to the books.  And the only thing we can say is the original text was OK.  But that doesn't help those of us who do not possess a copy of the original. 2.  Yes.  We may not know until thousands of years pass that some information was added by a scribe.  Look at all the poor souls who banked on 1 John 5:7 and were completely duped. 3.  Yes.  Error can confirm error.  Ha!  No, seriously, I do believe in the words contained in the bible and they do help in supporting other words.  However, I do not put lock-stock-and-barrel in their inclusions/exclusions of human beings and doctine.  I put my faith in God who is unseen and largely unknown today. I look forward to the Day when we will see him and know….  Until then, gray exists for me.  I cannot say I know for certain, 100% about anything written in the bible.  Look at those who did and found out the dried ink had been tampered with. Mandy How are they poor souls? 1 John 5:7 or the lack of it does not break down scriptures that support the Trinitarian view. WJ According to you…. But it was the ONLY verse that confirmed the trinity, literally.  Without it, questions arise naturally.

Mandy

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

We know that the Father is one with Yeshua and his Spirit.

How does this verse say Yeshua and the Spirit is God?

If this verse was still in the bible would it change anyones belief?

I dont think so. I can hear the debate going “but just because Yeshua is one with the Father and the Spirit does not mean he is God”.

WJ

[TimothyVI]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:55)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,09:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:40) I believe there are absolutes. I am absolutely sure that stu is an atheist and does not know God. Hmmmm With all due respect bro, you may want to reconsider this “absolute”.  For no man knows another's heart…. Mandy So then you would say that stu is not telling the truth when he says this? stu with his own words says so. Why should I doubt him? WJ

Hi WorshippingJesus,
even Stu says that is not an absolute.
He has maintained many times that he leaves room for the slightest possibility that God may exist. But he does not believe it.

Tim

[TimothyVI]

Just look at the debates on pre-existence and the Trinity.
How can so many Jesus loving, God fearing Christians be led
in to different beliefs by the Spirit.

Which ones are being led astray by the spirit?
And more importantly, how do they know, if they truly believe they are being
taught by the Spirit?

Tim

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 20 2008,10:01)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:55) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,09:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:40) I believe there are absolutes. I am absolutely sure that stu is an atheist and does not know God. Hmmmm With all due respect bro, you may want to reconsider this “absolute”.  For no man knows another's heart…. Mandy So then you would say that stu is not telling the truth when he says this? stu with his own words says so. Why should I doubt him? WJ Hi WorshippingJesus, even Stu says that is not an absolute. He has maintained many times that he leaves room for the slightest possibility that God may exist. But he does not believe it. Tim

Tim

As I said…

Based oin stu's own confession I am absolutely sure he is an atheist and does not know God.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 20 2008,10:06)

Just look at the debates on pre-existence and the Trinity. How can so many Jesus loving, God fearing Christians be led in to different beliefs by the Spirit. Which ones are being led astray by the spirit? And more importantly, how do they know, if they truly believe they are being taught by the Spirit? Tim

Tim

I am convinced of my own experience with my God and his word.

I cannot nor can you account for anyone else.

We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

In the end God will show who is telling the truth and who is not.

WJ

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:49)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,09:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,08:46) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,08:36) WJ, Did God inspire the errors, too? Mandy The errors are in translation and not the text. But the errors you speak of are few and do no damage to the overall message of the Bible and the basic tenants of the faith. WJ But all we have are translations…. Mandy No, we also have Greek and Hebrew literall interlinears and concordances where we can examine Hebrew and Greek meanings for ourselves. WJ

Question:

Did the texts you ref to above have an original copy of the scriptures to work from?

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,10:09)

In the end God will show who is telling the truth and who is not.

You had me until this line above…..

I don't believe it's that cut and dry. If it were, I would consider God to be extremely unfair for giving us a collection of books that can be interpreted a zillion ways to Sunday and then expect us to find the black-and-white-absolute-truth.

[david]

Quote

I can hear the debate going “but just because Yeshua is one with the Father and the Spirit does not mean he is God”.

–wj

Well, yes…

JOHN 17:11
““Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that THEY [Jesus followers] MAY BE ONE JUST AS WE [Father and Son] ARE.”

JOHN 17:21
“in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.”

It's clearly talking about unity. For the Father and Son are “one” just as Jesus followers are to be “one.”

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,10:00)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,09:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2008,09:45) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2008,09:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2008,08:44) Hi not3, If you know of error introduced by man should they make you stumble? Or is it just the fear that there are other hidden errors that God will let slip by you? If you let scripture interpret scripture and rely on proofs by scriptural support should that not help? 1.  Yes.  Because man put the books together.  Man added to the books.  And the only thing we can say is the original text was OK.  But that doesn't help those of us who do not possess a copy of the original. 2.  Yes.  We may not know until thousands of years pass that some information was added by a scribe.  Look at all the poor souls who banked on 1 John 5:7 and were completely duped. 3.  Yes.  Error can confirm error.  Ha!  No, seriously, I do believe in the words contained in the bible and they do help in supporting other words.  However, I do not put lock-stock-and-barrel in their inclusions/exclusions of human beings and doctine.  I put my faith in God who is unseen and largely unknown today. I look forward to the Day when we will see him and know….  Until then, gray exists for me.  I cannot say I know for certain, 100% about anything written in the bible.  Look at those who did and found out the dried ink had been tampered with. Mandy How are they poor souls? 1 John 5:7 or the lack of it does not break down scriptures that support the Trinitarian view. WJ According to you…. But it was the ONLY verse that confirmed the trinity, literally.  Without it, questions arise naturally. Mandy For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 We know that the Father is one with Yeshua and his Spirit. How does this verse say Yeshua and the Spirit is God? If this verse was still in the bible would it change anyones belief? I dont think so. I can hear the debate going “but just because Yeshua is one with the Father and the Spirit does not mean he is God”. WJ

Hi WJ,
Offering this added verse to support your arguments shows how weak they are.

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