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Mike misleads in one thread on purpose…that is deceptive.–Lightenup.
Lightenup, when you quoted his words, you forgot to include the smiley face after the word “godhead.” Clearly, he doesn't believe in a godhead.
You also said:
“This proves that Mike is trying so bad to make the saints into a part of the Godhead as gods. In the kingdom of God, the Father and Son are kings and the rest are not.”REVELATION 5:9,10:
“You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”REVELATION 22:3-5
“And no more will there be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in [the city], and HIS SLAVES will render him sacred service; and THEY will see his face, and his name will be on THEIR foreheads. Also, night will be no more, and THEY have no need of lamplight nor [do they have] sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon THEM, and they will RULE AS KINGS forever and ever.”REVELATION 20:4-5
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”CLEARLY, THEY RULE AS KINGS WITH CHRIST.
Any Bible will say they rule as “kings.” These “kings” are the ones that make up the kingdom, along with Jesus.
REVELATION 1:6
“and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.”You also mentioned in that other thread where you quoted from Mike that God and Jesus are the kings and the holy ones are the heirs. Yet, here we are told that the holy ones are joint heirs WITH christ.
ROMANS 8:17
“If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”Quote (david @ Sep. 09 2011,22:50) “The kingdom of Christ is ALL OF CREATION…”–terricca Maybe you meant that the kingdom will rule over all of creation. But the kingdom is not itself “all of creation.” None of the scriptures you listed show that the kingdom is “all of creation.” If you think any of them do show this, please explain how. It will affect all creation. But it is not all creation itself, as if to say the kingdom is the universe and everything in it.
davidyes the kingdom will rule over all creation then the creation is part of the kingdom ,
if Christ is king in his kingdom then he rules over all what God has place under him ,is it not ?
and so all become part of that kingdom
but God his father rules over all including Christ
Pierre
“the kingdom will rule over all creation then the creation is part of the kingdom”–terricca
The Canadian government rules over all of canada, then Canada is part of the government. False.
and so all become part of that government. False.
Pierre, could you give your definition or understanding of what the “kingdom” actually is?
The Kingdom of Heaven.
2 words:
- Kingdom – A governing organisation with a king at its head.
- Heaven – We know the heavens are the stars or universe, so is Heaven the highest of the heavens, or is it the whole of the heavens?
Regardless, it is essentially the government that rules over the place.
The Kingdom of Heaven is the Kingdom of God.
According to Jesus, the Kingdom of God is within us.So does that mean that Heaven is in us or the government of God is in us?
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.Is the last scripture talking of Heaven as a place?
Was the Kingdom of Israel a place or a government, or both?
Quote (david @ Sep. 10 2011,00:31) “the kingdom will rule over all creation then the creation is part of the kingdom”–terricca The Canadian government rules over all of canada, then Canada is part of the government. False.
and so all become part of that government. False.
Pierre, could you give your definition or understanding of what the “kingdom” actually is?
DAVIDQuote The Canadian government rules over all of canada, then Canada is part of the government. False. No, that is not what I meant ,it goes like this the government of canada rules Canada so all what is incompast canada is part of that country and so ruled by that government.
Quote and so all become part of that government. False. what you imply is that the government in a country is rulling NO LAND AND NO PEOPLE IF SO WHY DO YOU NEED A GOVERNMENT ?
Pierre
T8
Why do you believe jesus said the kingdom is “within us”?
I believe the idea that the kingdom (a word that means “government, empire” etc) is within people does not line up with ACCURATE scripture.
There is really only one scripture that pushes people to believe that, and it's not translated that way in most modern Bibles. It is in fact, a mistranslation, and an easy one to spot, when you consider the context.Before we get to that, let's begin at the beginning, and I'll discuss why, I Biblically do not believe the kingdom of God is something “within” people.
Actually, no, let's start at that scripture:
LUKE 17:21
“neither will people be saying, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For, look! the kingdom of God is in within you.”1. CONTEXT! Read Luke 17:20 and 21. (Not just 21)
(He “answered” the pharisees. His statement was directed towards them. Do you think the kingdom of God is in the hearts of the pharisses? Please do not dismiss that question. Is it? Jesus called them “hypocrites” and “serpents” and said “how are you to flee from the judgement of Gehenna?”
Is God’s kingdom in such ones? What do you think?2. MODERN BIBLES translate it “in your midst” or “among you.” (Even KJ and others that have “within you” also have “among you” as an alternate translation in the margins.)
3. MANY SCRIPTURES SHOW KINGDOM TO BE A GOVERNMENT–dan 2:44; Is 9:6,7; 1 cor 15:24; Rev 1:6; 5:9,10.
At Matthew 23:13-33, we see that Jesus 4 times said: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!” And he said: “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgment of Ge·heńna?” (Mat 23:33)
Does it make sense that Jesus would say that God’s kingdom was in the wicked hearts of those corrupt men, the very ones he condemned to Gehenna, the very ones who shut up the kingdom for other men?
It’s interesting to note the margins and footnotes in the KJ and the NIV of this verse.
In the margin, KJ has this: “within you: or, among you.”
A footnote to Luke 17:21 in the New International Version shows that Jesus’ words could be rendered: “The kingdom of God is among you.”And here is how the vast majority of modern Bible’s tend to translate this verse:
“The kingdom of God is in your midst.” (New World Translation)
“For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (NASB)
“Because God's kingdom is already among you.” (The Message)
“For the Kingdom of God is already among you.[a]” (New Living)
“the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”[a] (English Standard)
“the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. (Darby Translation)
“the kingdom of God is among you.” (holman)
“God's kingdom is among you.” (New International readers version)
“because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” [a] (todays new international version)
“The kingdom of God is among you” (The New English Bible)
“is in the midst of you.” (The Jerusalem Bible)
“is in the midst of you.” (Revised Standard Version)
“God’s royal majesty is among you.” (The Emphatic Diaglott)
etc.Jesus, who was in their midst, thus referred to himself as the future King. (Compare Mat 12:27,28)
Jesus was “within” a group of people, among them, “in” their midst.
As the long-awaited Messiah and King-Designate, Jesus was in their very midst. Far from being something that a person has in his heart, God’s Kingdom is a real, operating government having a ruler and subjects.WHAT IS GOD’S KINGDOM?
As you said, a government. Does it make sense that a government is within us? Was gods kingdom within the Pharisees?
I would really like an answer.
Quote (david @ Sep. 09 2011,13:06) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2011,14:07) David the kingdom of Christ is all of creation because that is why he came to save,but the kingdom of God this refers to all including Christ
this is why it say that God his the God of gods,and Lord of lords
but of Christ it says Lord of lords and King of kings
Pierre
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a territory, state, people, or community ruled or reigned over by a king or queen“The kingdom of Christ is ALL OF CREATION…”–terricca
I was just saying that checking a dictionary bears out that a kingdom is a government ruled by a king.
But you say the kingdom is all of creation. Neither the bible nor the meaning of the word best that out.
David…………But God rules (IN) the Heart and Minds of his childern and there is where His true Kingdom is. Your focusing only on the Physical and discarding the Spiritual. “Make the up clean on the (INSIDE ) that it might be also clean on the outside”, or Physical side. God rules from the inside which cleans the outside which is seen physically IMOpeace and love to you and yours David……………………gene
david
WHAT IS GOD’S KINGDOM?
Quote As you said, a government. Does it make sense that a government is within us? Was gods kingdom within the Pharisees? I would really like an answer.
IF WE ACCEPT THE KINGDOM RULES THAT CHRIST ESTABLISHED WHEN HE WAS ON EARTH ,THEN THE KINGDOM IS IN US AND WE BECOME PART AND ARE PART OF IT ,THIS IS HOW “ALL BECOMES OF GOD ” AND IN GOD” IT IS A SELF CHOICE TO BE IN THE KINGDOM ,BUT THE RULES ARE OF GOD,
Pierre
GENE, show me scriptures that explain or back up what you say. For example, say:
“God rules (IN) the Heart and Minds of his childern” (scripture citation goes here)
Pierre, it is not a “self choice” to be in the kingdom. God chooses the rulers:
MATTHEW 20:23
“He said to them: “YOU will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”” (See Luke 22:28-30)“THEN THE KINGDOM IS IN US “–Pierre.
What scriptures do you use to back this up Pierre?
Have either of you read my rather long post above? If so, what do you disagree with?
david
Quote WHAT IS GOD’S KINGDOM? .
it is the will of God ,and Christ was that will by doing the will of God ,
MT 10:20 “For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
JN 14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
JN 14:20 “ In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
JN 15:4 “ Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in MeJN 15:7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
JN 15:11 “ These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.JN 17:21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
RO 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
MT 6:10 ‘ Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.so the kingdom is the dominion of the will of God.
MT 13:41 “ The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
MT 13:43 “ Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hearMT 22:2 “ The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son.
MT 23:13 “ But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.the kingdom is a spiritual kingdom where Gods will dwells at all times in all beings and so their is no darkness only light ,that is the way we all should be ,
Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.
Jas 3:18 Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Jas 4:9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.Pierre
Hi Pierre,
Excellent post!
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgPierre, did you notice my response to you where I quoted Matthew 20:23?
You said:
“IT IS A SELF CHOICE TO BE IN THE KINGDOM ,BUT THE RULES ARE OF GOD,”
Yet, the Bible says:
“He said to her: “What do you want?” She said to him: “Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” 22 Jesus said in answer: “YOU men do not know what YOU are asking for. Can YOU drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to him: “We can.” 23 He said to them: “YOU will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”” (Mat 20:21-23)
Thoughts Pierre?
Quote (david @ Sep. 10 2011,18:05) T8 Why do you believe jesus said the kingdom is “within us”?
I believe the idea that the kingdom (a word that means “government, empire” etc) is within people does not line up with ACCURATE scripture.
There is really only one scripture that pushes people to believe that, and it's not translated that way in most modern Bibles. It is in fact, a mistranslation, and an easy one to spot, when you consider the context.
Thanks david.I will look into that, and read the rest of your post later.
A bit late here in NZ at the moment.But my first thoughts are that the Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom that reigns from Heaven and out to the utmost parts of creation. I also think that our spirit is within us or in our soul like marrow is in the bone. We are told that no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born again, and I think it is a person with a new spirit that recognizes God's sovereignty over him and all things. Such a revelation or truth is not from the flesh which is the outward part of us.
I mean the flesh (the outward part of us) is not obedient to God. So if we are obedient, then it has to come from within us.
Quote (david @ Sep. 11 2011,22:45) Pierre, did you notice my response to you where I quoted Matthew 20:23? You said:
“IT IS A SELF CHOICE TO BE IN THE KINGDOM ,BUT THE RULES ARE OF GOD,”
Yet, the Bible says:
“He said to her: “What do you want?” She said to him: “Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” 22 Jesus said in answer: “YOU men do not know what YOU are asking for. Can YOU drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to him: “We can.” 23 He said to them: “YOU will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”” (Mat 20:21-23)
Thoughts Pierre?
DavidMt 20:24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers.
Mt 20:25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
Mt 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”Jn 17:6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,I quote scriptures that explain why it is all of God,but what is the real thing that should be understood is the answer that Jesus give to his disciples after they were
indignant,from the request ,what is and should be the rule between them ;;whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, AND ;;Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”now if you read Col 1;18 you may understand the supremacy of Christ ,and also understand what make a position in heaven ,
Pierre
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 11 2011,22:28) Quote (david @ Sep. 10 2011,18:05) T8 Why do you believe jesus said the kingdom is “within us”?
I believe the idea that the kingdom (a word that means “government, empire” etc) is within people does not line up with ACCURATE scripture.
There is really only one scripture that pushes people to believe that, and it's not translated that way in most modern Bibles. It is in fact, a mistranslation, and an easy one to spot, when you consider the context.
Thanks david.I will look into that, and read the rest of your post later.
A bit late here in NZ at the moment.But my first thoughts are that the Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom that reigns from Heaven and out to the utmost parts of creation. I also think that our spirit is within us or in our soul like marrow is in the bone. We are told that no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born again, and I think it is a person with a new spirit that recognizes God's sovereignty over him and all things. Such a revelation or truth is not from the flesh which is the outward part of us.
I mean the flesh (the outward part of us) is not obedient to God. So if we are obedient, then it has to come from within us.
T8………Well put brother.peace and loveto you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (david @ Sep. 11 2011,13:08) GENE, show me scriptures that explain or back up what you say. For example, say: “God rules (IN) the Heart and Minds of his childern” (scripture citation goes here)
David………..The prayer Jesus gave should Help you understand this , When Jesus said ” thy kingdom come thy (WILL) be Done” where God rules His (WILL) is Ruling. Jesus said Not my will be done but “THY” WILL be Done he also said the son of Man came Not to do his will but the Will of Him who sent Him So we can say Jesus was in the kingdom of God and so are all who do the Fathers Will , David God rules from Within you not external of a Person as you teach, “the kingdom of God come not with observation but is withing you” How much more do you need David, no need to explain away these scriptures they are straight forward and clear to anyone who does not have a preconceived mindset David.peace and love………………………….gene
Quote the Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom Both Pierre and T8 said this, but I dislike definitions that have the very word they are trying to define in them.
X is X?
ok.
Once we define what X actually is, it becomes much easier to have a clear understanding of the “within us” / “in our midst” scripture.
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 12 2011,02:18) Quote (david @ Sep. 11 2011,22:45) Pierre, did you notice my response to you where I quoted Matthew 20:23? You said:
“IT IS A SELF CHOICE TO BE IN THE KINGDOM ,BUT THE RULES ARE OF GOD,”
Yet, the Bible says:
“He said to her: “What do you want?” She said to him: “Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” 22 Jesus said in answer: “YOU men do not know what YOU are asking for. Can YOU drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to him: “We can.” 23 He said to them: “YOU will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”” (Mat 20:21-23)
Thoughts Pierre?
DavidMt 20:24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers.
Mt 20:25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
Mt 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”Jn 17:6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,I quote scriptures that explain why it is all of God,but what is the real thing that should be understood is the answer that Jesus give to his disciples after they were
indignant,from the request ,what is and should be the rule between them ;;whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, AND ;;Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”now if you read Col 1;18 you may understand the supremacy of Christ ,and also understand what make a position in heaven ,
Pierre
Hi Pierre,
The scripture I quoted shows quite plainly that God “the Father” decides who sits at the thrones with Christ in the “kingdom.”Yet, you said it was a “self choice to be in the kingdom.”
So, is it a self choice, or is it God's choice?
The scriptures you presented are all very lovely, but none of them touch on what I was actually asking.
Quote T8 Why do you believe jesus said the kingdom is “within us”?
I believe the idea that the kingdom (a word that means “government, empire” etc) is within people does not line up with ACCURATE scripture.
There is really only one scripture that pushes people to believe that, and it's not translated that way in most modern Bibles. It is in fact, a mistranslation, and an easy one to spot, when you consider the context.t8, I want to make sure you understand what I was asking. When I said: “Why do you believe jesus said the kingdom is “within us”?” I mean “within us” as contrasted to “in our midst” or how other newer translations translate it. I'm not asking what is meant by “within us” but asking why someone would argue that it should be translated “within us.” (See a couple pages back.)
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