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- david,Aug. wrote:
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Thank you David for the clarification on both accounts.A question does arise though, since these co-rulers/heirs are anonited/appointed by god, will the great crowd reverence the small group?
Another question, since the earth will be new, and everyone will be unified under the same spirit, what is the need for the rulers? Is there going to be an uprising of some sort?
The ones that are being chosen to rule, how are they chosen?
I do apologize for all the questions, your faith is not one I am very familiar with.
Princess
Question1: No.
Qestion2: We are repeatedly told that Christ will be king. What is the need for Jesus (and his “joint heirs” or co rulers) to rule? Part B: Nope. No more uprisings. We've already tried independant rule. It seems anyone uprising would be squashed like a bug. The experiment in independant rule has been seen by all to be a failure. So, no need to let another experiment like that go.
Question 3: Yes, didn't include that, but could have: By God.
MATTHEW 20:23
“He said to them: “YOU will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”” (See Luke 22:28-30)David……….Getting the Kingdom of Jesus and the Kingdom of GOD confused can create problems , The Kingdom of GOD is within you , the Kingdom of Jesus is a Physical Kingdom and begins upon his return. But at the end of His reign he turns it over to God the Father as a spiritual kingdom that will be (IN) All and (through) ALL> IMO
peace and love…………………………………gene
Hi Gene.
The kingdom is a theme that runs through the Bible, as is the seed, who would become king of that kingdom.
It's called many things: God's kingdom, Jesus' kingdom, heavenly kingdom, etc.
Yes, there is that scripture that says he will hand over the kingdom to his father. But the word “kingdom” means empire, government, etc. That is what the word means. the “king” in front of it signifies that it ruled by a king, unlike other governments that are ruled in other ways. What you suggest cannot really be found in scripture. If there is some sort of distinction, could you please provide some sort of biblical proof?
Quote (david @ Aug. 12 2011,10:45) Quote The number of 144 thousand seems a bit lean with all the ones that inhabit the earth today. Hi Princess.
REVELATION 5:9,10:
“You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made THEM [the 144,000] to be a kingdom [which is a government] and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”governments have no reason to be tremendously large. Notice there are 2 groups in this scripture: (1) “them,” that is, those that make up the kingdom, and (2) those they rule as kings over. Why does the first group have to be large?
In fact, it is specifically called a “small flock” and the other group is called a “great crowd.”
REVELATION 7:3-4,9
“saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of [spiritual] Israel: . . . .After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.”Again, in this scripture, we see 2 groups. One is very little. After that, we are shown a “great crowd.”
So, based on that, I do not understand your statement above.
Princess, in view of the scriptures, does that number actually seem lean?When the kingdom of God did not immediately assert itself, people began to allegorize, metaphorize, spiritual, etc the kingdom.
The kingdom of God is actually a kingdom, as the word suggests.
JESUS’ CO-RULERS ARE KINGS, JUDGES, PRIESTS AND MAKE UP GOD’S KINGDOM, THE GOVERNMENT
REVELATION 20:4-5
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”
REVELATION 20:6:
“They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.” (Also Daniel 7:27)
1 CORINTHIANS 4:8
“YOU men already have YOUR fill, do YOU? YOU are rich already, are YOU? YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings.”
1 CORINTHIANS 6:2:
“Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?” (Compare Rev 20:4; 2 Cor 5:10)
2 TIMOTHY 2:12
“if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings; if we deny, he also will deny us;”
REVELATION 5:10:
“You made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over [“on,” RS, KJ, Dy; “over,” AT, Da, Kx, CC] the earth.” (The same Greek word and grammatical structure is found at Revelation 11:6. There RS, KJ, Dy, etc., all render it “over.” Really, looking only at this scripture, that word could be translated either way. But based on the rest of the Bible, it seems to me the word “over” is a better translation.)
LUKE 22:28-30
““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Jesus told the apostles that in “the re-creation” they would “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mt 19:28) And he expressed a similar thought when he made a covenant with his faithful apostles for a Kingdom. (Lu 22:28-30) It is not reasonable that Jesus meant that they would judge the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel later mentioned in Revelation, for the apostles were to be part of that group. (Eph 2:19-22; Re 3:21) Those “called to be holy ones” are said to judge, not themselves, but “the world.” (1Co 1:1, 2; 6:2) Those reigning with Christ form a kingdom of priests. (1Pe 2:9; Re 5:10) Consequently, “the twelve tribes of Israel” mentioned at Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 evidently represent “the world” of mankind who are outside that royal priestly class and whom those sitting on heavenly thrones will judge.—Re 20:4.While on earth, Jesus preached the kingdom. He even said: but he said to them, “I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns as well; for I was sent for this purpose.”
While on earth, Jesus fortold that the kingdom would be preached: “And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”It was both Jesus central message and is to be his followers central message: the good news of the kingdom.
Yet, somehow, what the kingdom even is, has been blurred and misrepresented, to the point where no one really talks about it, because they don't even know what it is.
There are only a few threads in this forum that are about the kingdom, and I see that I started 2 of them. Shouldn't this be discussed more? Much much more? Shouldn't this be the central point of discussion?
Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2011,10:31) Quote (david @ Aug. 12 2011,10:45) Quote The number of 144 thousand seems a bit lean with all the ones that inhabit the earth today. Hi Princess.
REVELATION 5:9,10:
“You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made THEM [the 144,000] to be a kingdom [which is a government] and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”governments have no reason to be tremendously large. Notice there are 2 groups in this scripture: (1) “them,” that is, those that make up the kingdom, and (2) those they rule as kings over. Why does the first group have to be large?
In fact, it is specifically called a “small flock” and the other group is called a “great crowd.”
REVELATION 7:3-4,9
“saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of [spiritual] Israel: . . . .After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.”Again, in this scripture, we see 2 groups. One is very little. After that, we are shown a “great crowd.”
So, based on that, I do not understand your statement above.
Princess, in view of the scriptures, does that number actually seem lean?
David, the equation seems efficient. Although I can understand what your faith believes, to comprehend that rulers will be needed is somewhat odd to me since one god, faith and spirit will be the norm.Since this being the case, then why the need for rulers, or one could interprut that some will be given higher ranks in heaven then others. Which in state will be mostly JW's, is this what you are presenting.
“Athough I can understand what your faith believes, to comprehend that rulers will be needed is somewhat odd to me…”
Princess, would you say this verse is odd to you?
“you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”The Bible does not say that rulers are “needed” as though God needs to set up humans to rule. The Bible doesn't say that. What it does say is that he has done this…not that it's needed.
I suppose God could do everything himself. But he has chosen to use humans. Why were disciples chosen? Why the need? Couldn't God do these things himself?
A judge understands the law and is capable of judging himself. Yet, sometimes, a jury of peers are used. Why?
As well, it's not just “ruling.” They, along with Jesus at the lead will be “judging.” And much like a jury, it feels more fair knowing that you are being tried by others who have lived through the same things.
Princess;
“Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”–1 Cor 6:2
REVELATION 20:4
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”So, the holy ones (anointed; 144,000; co-heirs of the kingdom) will judge the world with Christ and will rule as kings with Christ.
It doesn't NEED to be that way Princess, but that is the way God has chosen. And I think the best illustration has to be that of a jury of your peers being chosen to judge you (and also to rule over the earth with Christ.)
david
David
the judgement is after the second resurrection but what about after the judgement,when all is done and Christ turn himself in submission to his father and so that all is of God then what ?
and all is new ,earth ,heaven, and only one rule LOVE then what ?
Pierre
Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2011,13:08) Princess; “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”–1 Cor 6:2
REVELATION 20:4
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”So, the holy ones (anointed; 144,000; co-heirs of the kingdom) will judge the world with Christ and will rule as kings with Christ.
It doesn't NEED to be that way Princess, but that is the way God has chosen. And I think the best illustration has to be that of a jury of your peers being chosen to judge you (and also to rule over the earth with Christ.)
david
David,The holy ones, what faith will they stem from ?
Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2011,10:24) Hi Gene. The kingdom is a theme that runs through the Bible, as is the seed, who would become king of that kingdom.
It's called many things: God's kingdom, Jesus' kingdom, heavenly kingdom, etc.
Yes, there is that scripture that says he will hand over the kingdom to his father. But the word “kingdom” means empire, government, etc. That is what the word means. the “king” in front of it signifies that it ruled by a king, unlike other governments that are ruled in other ways. What you suggest cannot really be found in scripture. If there is some sort of distinction, could you please provide some sort of biblical proof?
David…………Here is one for you, If the Saints are Joint Heirs (with) Jesus and are called a Kingdom of Priest a Royal Priesthood as He is also a High Priest, and Daniel said “THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH SHALL POSSESS THE “KINGDOM” FOR EVER”. Then tell us what kingdom are these Saint going to Posses “FOREVER”. David you are still confusing the spiritual Kingdom of GOD with the Physical Kingdom of Jesus and the SAINTS. God is SPIRIT and RULES in us through HIS SPIRIT. Why do you think It say Jesus must rule “UNTIL” the Thousand Years are finish and then He turns the KINGDOM over to the FATHER, and why does it say THAT GOD MAY IN ALL AND IN YOU ALL Gods rule is a SPIRITUAL ONE, he rules within the Cup so to Speak that the outside may be clean also. Your focus, and by the way the JW'S focus is more on the outside of the Cup, the Physical and not the SPIRITUAL, but it is the Spiritual one that counts. You tie people in that cult by preaching this Physical Kingdom , and Not understanding that everyone who is in that physical Kingdom of Jesus outside of the Saints, will turn away at the end of those thousand years and try to Kill all the Saints and Jesus also, what happened to your beautiful Physical Picture, “AND FIRE COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND DEVOURS THEM ALL” WHY because these people did not have the Spirit of the Living GOD (IN) them DAVID as the Saint and Jesus did. You portray to everyone DAVID and Your preachers us this Physical Kingdom attraction Ideas much like all Cults do , like Jim Jones did and Herbert W Armstrong did to keep people involved in their organizations, But look what happened in the end. This preaching that we are the “ONLY TRUE ONES” we are the KINGDOM PEOPLE and everyone else is on the outside is dangerous DAVID and is Used to control you all, because it make you all feel special But trust me David it can be a Poison to your soul in the end brother.peace and love to you and yours David…………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2011,08:22) Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2011,10:24) Hi Gene. The kingdom is a theme that runs through the Bible, as is the seed, who would become king of that kingdom.
It's called many things: God's kingdom, Jesus' kingdom, heavenly kingdom, etc.
Yes, there is that scripture that says he will hand over the kingdom to his father. But the word “kingdom” means empire, government, etc. That is what the word means. the “king” in front of it signifies that it ruled by a king, unlike other governments that are ruled in other ways. What you suggest cannot really be found in scripture. If there is some sort of distinction, could you please provide some sort of biblical proof?
David…………Here is one for you, If the Saints are Joint Heirs (with) Jesus and are called a Kingdom of Priest a Royal Priesthood as He is also a High Priest, and Daniel said “THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH SHALL POSSESS THE “KINGDOM” FOR EVER”. Then tell us what kingdom are these Saint going to Posses “FOREVER”. David you are still confusing the spiritual Kingdom of GOD with the Physical Kingdom of Jesus and the SAINTS. God is SPIRIT and RULES in us through HIS SPIRIT. Why do you think It say Jesus must rule “UNTIL” the Thousand Years are finish and then He turns the KINGDOM over to the FATHER, and why does it say THAT GOD MAY IN ALL AND IN YOU ALL Gods rule is a SPIRITUAL ONE, he rules within the Cup so to Speak that the outside may be clean also. Your focus, and by the way the JW'S focus is more on the outside of the Cup, the Physical and not the SPIRITUAL, but it is the Spiritual one that counts. You tie people in that cult by preaching this Physical Kingdom , and Not understanding that everyone who is in that physical Kingdom of Jesus outside of the Saints, will turn away at the end of those thousand years and try to Kill all the Saints and Jesus also, what happened to your beautiful Physical Picture, “AND FIRE COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND DEVOURS THEM ALL” WHY because these people did not have the Spirit of the Living GOD (IN) them DAVID as the Saint and Jesus did. You portray to everyone DAVID and Your preachers us this Physical Kingdom attraction Ideas much like all Cults do , like Jim Jones did and Herbert W Armstrong did to keep people involved in their organizations, But look what happened in the end. This preaching that we are the “ONLY TRUE ONES” we are the KINGDOM PEOPLE and everyone else is on the outside is dangerous DAVID and is Used to control you all, because it make you all feel special But trust me David it can be a Poison to your soul in the end brother.peace and love to you and yours David…………………….gene
geneunless you have the knowledge of the true word of God in you ,you have nothing in you from God,
see Jesus add the truth from his father in him ,he never when to men school,but he knew scriptures better than the doctors of the law,
when he open the books of the law like he did he knew where to look,the truth of the words of God was in him,
this is why Jesus also said the words i speak are not mine but they are from my father,
he was the instrument to fulfill that word and law.
Pierre
Quote (princess @ Aug. 14 2011,09:25) Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2011,13:08) Princess; “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”–1 Cor 6:2
REVELATION 20:4
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”So, the holy ones (anointed; 144,000; co-heirs of the kingdom) will judge the world with Christ and will rule as kings with Christ.
It doesn't NEED to be that way Princess, but that is the way God has chosen. And I think the best illustration has to be that of a jury of your peers being chosen to judge you (and also to rule over the earth with Christ.)
david
David,The holy ones, what faith will they stem from ?
Princessthere is only one true faith it is the faith in God and Christ according to the word of God
religion is not a faith it is an organization with doctrines and politics ,men made deviation
Pierre
Quote (princess @ Aug. 14 2011,02:25) Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2011,13:08) Princess; “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”–1 Cor 6:2
REVELATION 20:4
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”So, the holy ones (anointed; 144,000; co-heirs of the kingdom) will judge the world with Christ and will rule as kings with Christ.
It doesn't NEED to be that way Princess, but that is the way God has chosen. And I think the best illustration has to be that of a jury of your peers being chosen to judge you (and also to rule over the earth with Christ.)
david
David,The holy ones, what faith will they stem from ?
Princess, the scripture says:
“I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand.”So, this scripture seems to be speaking of some who witness about Jesus and speak about God. Also, they don't worship the wild beast, nor its image.
But, my point was that “power of judging was given them” and “the holy ones will judge the world,” and they will rule “as kings for a thousand years.”
This is one thing that those who make up the kingdom (government) will do. You had said you saw no “need” for rulers. I'm just pointing out what scripture says, and does it not seem to say there will be rulers?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2011,01:22) Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2011,10:24) Hi Gene. The kingdom is a theme that runs through the Bible, as is the seed, who would become king of that kingdom.
It's called many things: God's kingdom, Jesus' kingdom, heavenly kingdom, etc.
Yes, there is that scripture that says he will hand over the kingdom to his father. But the word “kingdom” means empire, government, etc. That is what the word means. the “king” in front of it signifies that it ruled by a king, unlike other governments that are ruled in other ways. What you suggest cannot really be found in scripture. If there is some sort of distinction, could you please provide some sort of biblical proof?
David…………Here is one for you, If the Saints are Joint Heirs (with) Jesus and are called a Kingdom of Priest a Royal Priesthood as He is also a High Priest, and Daniel said “THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH SHALL POSSESS THE “KINGDOM” FOR EVER”. Then tell us what kingdom are these Saint going to Posses “FOREVER”. David you are still confusing the spiritual Kingdom of GOD with the Physical Kingdom of Jesus and the SAINTS. God is SPIRIT and RULES in us through HIS SPIRIT. Why do you think It say Jesus must rule “UNTIL” the Thousand Years are finish and then He turns the KINGDOM over to the FATHER, and why does it say THAT GOD MAY IN ALL AND IN YOU ALL Gods rule is a SPIRITUAL ONE, he rules within the Cup so to Speak that the outside may be clean also. Your focus, and by the way the JW'S focus is more on the outside of the Cup, the Physical and not the SPIRITUAL, but it is the Spiritual one that counts. You tie people in that cult by preaching this Physical Kingdom , and Not understanding that everyone who is in that physical Kingdom of Jesus outside of the Saints, will turn away at the end of those thousand years and try to Kill all the Saints and Jesus also, what happened to your beautiful Physical Picture, “AND FIRE COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND DEVOURS THEM ALL” WHY because these people did not have the Spirit of the Living GOD (IN) them DAVID as the Saint and Jesus did. You portray to everyone DAVID and Your preachers us this Physical Kingdom attraction Ideas much like all Cults do , like Jim Jones did and Herbert W Armstrong did to keep people involved in their organizations, But look what happened in the end. This preaching that we are the “ONLY TRUE ONES” we are the KINGDOM PEOPLE and everyone else is on the outside is dangerous DAVID and is Used to control you all, because it make you all feel special But trust me David it can be a Poison to your soul in the end brother.peace and love to you and yours David…………………….gene
Gene,I would greatly like to speak with you about the scriptures that speak of the kingdom.
I am not interested in any ad hominim fallacious arguments you try to construct. Can we not just discuss scripture? If you'd like to attack JW's, there are 25 threads that have been created for that purpose.
But here, can we not discuss what I believe is the theme of the entire Bible: the good news of the kingdom, specifically, what that kingdom is?
I asked you if you could provide some sort of logical scriptural argument for your belief that there is a spiritual kingdom (maybe in our hearts or whatever) and there is a physical kingdom.
(Understand, I don't really think there is a physical kingdom, as though there was a castle or whatever you picture when you hear the word kingdom. God's heavenly kingdom is a government made up of Christ and other joint heirs.)
So, can you provide some sort of coherent scriptural argument for your assertions? Thank you.
david.
Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2011,10:29) FTK, I am wondering what your thoughts are on the scriptures i provided in response to your post.
bump for FTK
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