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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 18 2011,02:09) Hi t8, I think what David has been asking is: “WHY would you use it the same way? If the word can mean “within”, but it can also mean “in your midst”, what other scriptures do you have to SUPPORT the “within” definition in Luke 17:21?”
I gave the only other scripture that uses the same word 'entos'.Matthew 23:26
Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.So at least the only other mention of 'entos' supports within/inside view.
That IMO is pretty significant especially considering that the opposite meaning of 'entos' in this verse is translated as 'outside'.Given that there are no other 'entos' verses in scripture, I am then forced to look at patterns in scripture regarding the things of God that seem to be within or inside us. In particular the spirit that is given to us is placed in us and it is only having this spirit dwelling in us that enables us to see the Kingdom of God, the very thing we are talking about. So having the spirit in us let's us see the Kingdom within us? Or having the spirit in us, let's us see the Kingdom among us?
I am still saying it is possible to translate the verse as among us even after that.
Number 1787
Transliteration:
entos {en-tos'}
Word Origin:
from 1722
Part of Speech:
prep
Usage in the KJV:
within 2
Total: 2
Definition:
within, inside
within you i.e. in the midst of you
within you i.e. your soulQuote (david @ Sep. 17 2011,14:21) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 17 2011,03:20) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 17 2011,02:47) David…………You are using your JW Bible translation to support you false teachings of the Kingdom of God only being a Physical Kingdom becasue it makes you people feel you are special , unique, and separates you from the rest of the world so by that you people think you are the “ONLY TRUE CHOSEN ONES” and in order to grow you organization your leaders Know it is necessary to preach that their organization is the only ones who have “THE REAL TRUTH” even if it means creating you own translations and alterations of plain scriptures. You say we don't quote scriptures that is a LIE David, We have and you fail to acknowledge them becasue they differ from you organizations belief system .
Here is some scriptures that you say we don't quote.
Like 17:20……And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,when the, Kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,The kingdom of God comes “NOT WITH OBSERVATION”
Luk 17:21……> Neither shall you say, Lo here!, or lo there! for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you
Now David are these Scriptures or NOT?
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Hi Gene,How about these verses?
Even the [HolySpirit] of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not,
neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:17)
Rom.14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the HolySpirit.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
OK, I'm starting to get the idea that this is a main argument used to support the “kingdom of God is within people” idea.Here is why it is a bad argument:
the holy spirit is not God's kingdom.
Over and over and over again, God's holy spirit is said to be “in” people.
I don't think anyone here argues that. It's so bizarre to me when people keep using this as proof. Yes, God's holy spirit resides in people. Sure. Agreed.
WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH JESUS ANSWERING THE PHARISEES AND SAYING THAT THE “KINGDOM” IS EITHER “WITHIN” THEM OR “AMONG” THEM?
And then we have Romans 14:17. Yes, it is talking about the “kingdom of God” and it does have the word “in” in the sentence. But that's about it. It DOES NOT say the kingdom is within people.
Are these really thought to be valid arguments?
Hi David,Here are a few more for you…
1) Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matt.5:3)
2) Matt 6: 20-23 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt,
and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness.3) Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man
that is a householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. (Matt.13:52)4) Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15)
5) And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. (Mark 12:34)
6) Joseph of Arimathaea, an honorable counselor, which also waited for the kingdom of God,
came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. (Mark 15:43)7) And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. (Luke 6:20)
8) Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. (Luke 12:32)
9) And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; (Luke 22:29)
10) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,
then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36)11) To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days,
and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded
them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard
of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the HolySpirit not many days hence. (Acts 1:3-5)12) But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God,
and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. (Acts 8:12)13) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the HolySpirit came on them;
and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve.
And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months,
disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. (Acts 19:6-8)14) For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. (1 Cor.4:20)
15) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (Col.1:13)16) ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory. (1Thess.2:12)
17) Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs
of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? (James 2:5)Please tell is how exactly how you would dismiss all these, especially point#11?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2011,18:20) Quote (david @ Sep. 16 2011,18:14) First,you didn't use “scriptures,” you used one scripture:
“I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
Secondly, I believe it is applicable to believers, but not all believers. When quoting this, we should also include the next verse;
“Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
david, I am not making the argument that the scripture in question is not saying the Kingdom of God is among us, but I made the point earlier that the same word is used elsewhere in scripture about the inside of the cup and if you use it the same way, then it is indeed inside or within.I then followed this line of reasoning further with other scriptures that talk about the new spirit that resides in us, and without it we cannot see the kingdom.
But if you must have more scripture (which is a good thing to ask for) then I can give you this:
Jesus said in John 7:38
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, from within him shall flow rivers of living water.Other scriptures say heart. The point here is that Jesus gives us access to the river of life or living water and it flows from within us rather than say an earthly river that flows around us, (if we bathe in it). Just another witness scripture about God moving from inside or within us, rather than in an external way that we see with other kingdoms and relationships. What other kingdom do you know of can only be seen if the spirit is in us, or what other kingdom offers life or living water from our inner most being?
We know that God is a spirit and spirit can live inside people, even bad spirits reside in people.
The very description of a temple which our body is and the Church is demonstrates that it is what is inside the temple that defines the temple.
I am sure that I could search out heaps of scriptures that refer to within, in us, or in our soul regarding the things of God.
I am merely making these points which I believe are valid as to whether the Kingdom of God can be in us or not.
Further, if out of your innermost being shall flow living water, is that water the river of life?
If so, then it flows from the throne of God which is in Heaven. Thus, again we see a Kingdom that is spiritual and on high, and effects us from within, rather than from a physical perspective like the Kingdoms of this world.
Revelation 22:1
And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb,And what kind of water flows in the River of Life?
Surely living water.
Hi T8,Good Post!
What kind of water flows in the River of Life? …spiritual water!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (t8 @ Sep. 17 2011,19:06) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 17 2011,03:20) Hi Gene, How about these verses?
Even the [HolySpirit] of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not,
neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:17)
Rom.14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the HolySpirit.God bless
Good point Ed.
Thank you, T8
It's a good verse Ed because it says both:
- he dwelleth with you,
- and shall be in you.
I think it is absolutely possible that the Kingdom of God is in us and among us. Other references to the Kingdom as being among us is not necessarily contradictory if Jesus says, the Kingdom is within us. The only other time on record when Jesus said “entos” was when he said: “First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean”.
So it is possible that Jesus taught that the kingdom is among us and also that it was within us.
After all, if the Kingdom is among us, then you have to ask yourself, from whence does the Kingdom come, because surely it is not sourced from among us, but from God himself who is the source of all creation and authority. And if from God, then where is God in relation to us? Is he not in us?
And if so, then the Kingdom comes from God who is in us, and from there it expresses itself through us and among us.
It is entirely possible that the kingdom is both within us and among us.
T8……….You are absolutely right, the only times the word (entos) appears in scripture is twice and in both cases it means (INSIDE).
David is letting His JW church do his talking here not the Spirit of Truth IMO> There are so many scriptures that show it is inside a person, Most all the Parables about the kingdom of God show it as an INSIDE Work, even the Parable of the Sower is about the Kingdom of God and Jesus was alway saying the Kingdom of GOD is Like unto something and the gave an example and in most all cases it was what was going on INSIDE a PERSON> IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 18 2011,02:09) I have seen many scriptures that support “in your midst”, but none so far that would support the entire Kingdom of God being “within” the very Pharisees that had Jesus killed.
Mike……….There are only two place in scripture that shows the word “entos” and both place mean inside and no matter what you NWT says if it differed from that is is wrong.You always say “well is it Possible” and like all your other questions of “is it Possible” yes if you want to twist up what is being said i guess it would all be possible to meet the dogmas of you or anyone else for that matter. IMO
peace and love………………………………….gene
Mike,
Quote That statement is odd enough to me, for a whole KINGDOM cannot dwell within someone. And when you consider that this KINGDOM wound not only be “within” ONE person, but possibly millions of people, we now have millions of KINGDOMS. Unless it says that only PART OF the Kingdom of God is “within you”. Does it? I am pretty sure it means the whole thing as I believe it is speaking of the righteous spirit of God in that context and it is considered one kingdom because it is the same Spirit in each. In other another context an individual is but one part of the kingdom, such as the parable of the kingdom as a net. We do have to be careful not to limit the aspects of God’s kingdom. Those aspects may be the reign and territory of God.
Quote So you believe that the Kingdom of God can be IN flesh and blood beings when flesh and blood beings cannot even ENTER it? How does one go about ENTERING something that is “within them”? God rules the spirit the rest is but territory.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 18 2011,01:31) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2011,23:30)
The kingdom of God is of the kingdom of the godly character and the character of God dwells in those that obey all of Jesus' teachings.
That statement is odd enough to me, for a whole KINGDOM cannot dwell within someone. And when you consider that this KINGDOM wound not only be “within” ONE person, but possibly millions of people, we now have millions of KINGDOMS. Unless it says that only PART OF the Kingdom of God is “within you”. Does it?mike
Hi Mike,Your rudimentary logic fails here; Here is similar logic…
Does it say that only part of God dwells in us? (2Cor.6:16)
Or does it mean that God has become a bunch of little God's?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kerwin @ Sep. 19 2011,13:48) Mike, Quote That statement is odd enough to me, for a whole KINGDOM cannot dwell within someone. And when you consider that this KINGDOM wound not only be “within” ONE person, but possibly millions of people, we now have millions of KINGDOMS. Unless it says that only PART OF the Kingdom of God is “within you”. Does it? I am pretty sure it means the whole thing as I believe it is speaking of the righteous spirit of God in that context and it is considered one kingdom because it is the same Spirit in each. In other another context an individual is but one part of the kingdom, such as the parable of the kingdom as a net. We do have to be careful not to limit the aspects of God’s kingdom. Those aspects may be the reign and territory of God.
Quote So you believe that the Kingdom of God can be IN flesh and blood beings when flesh and blood beings cannot even ENTER it? How does one go about ENTERING something that is “within them”? God rules the spirit the rest is but territory.
Mike,I was moved to meditate on this and I can remember the Kingdom being used in four ways.
1) The Kingdom of God is all creation as everything is his.
2) The Kingdom of God is the kingdom of of Judah-Israel/Samaria and associated kingdoms.
3) The Kingdom of God is the good news as in the net thrown into the sea to catch fish.
4) The kingdom of God is the saintly spirit that is a treasure of great value to those that hunger and thirst for righteousness.That corrects some of what I wrote previously.
KERWIN
Quote 1) The Kingdom of God is all creation as everything is his.
2) The Kingdom of God is the kingdom of of Judah-Israel/Samaria and associated kingdoms.
3) The Kingdom of God is the good news as in the net thrown into the sea to catch fish.
4) The kingdom of God is the saintly spirit that is a treasure of great value to those that hunger and thirst for righteousness.1+2+3+4+ = the will of God.
Pierre
Terricca…………“thy kingdom come thy “WILL” be done” in earth as it is done in heaven. That all work (INSIDE) of a person. You have posted it right IMO.
peace and love……………………………………………………………gene
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 18 2011,20:20) It's a good verse Ed because it says both: - he dwelleth with you,
- and shall be in you.
I think it is absolutely possible that the Kingdom of God is in us and among us. Other references to the Kingdom as being among us is not necessarily contradictory if Jesus says, the Kingdom is within us. The only other time on record when Jesus said “entos” was when he said: “First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean”.
So it is possible that Jesus taught that the kingdom is among us and also that it was within us.
After all, if the Kingdom is among us, then you have to ask yourself, from whence does the Kingdom come, because surely it is not sourced from among us, but from God himself who is the source of all creation and authority. And if from God, then where is God in relation to us? Is he not in us?
And if so, then the Kingdom comes from God who is in us, and from there it expresses itself through us and among us.
It is entirely possible that the kingdom is both within us and among us.
T8 and EdJ………….both right on brothers.peace and love to you both…………………………………gene
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 20 2011,17:15) KERWIN Quote 1) The Kingdom of God is all creation as everything is his.
2) The Kingdom of God is the kingdom of of Judah-Israel/Samaria and associated kingdoms.
3) The Kingdom of God is the good news as in the net thrown into the sea to catch fish.
4) The kingdom of God is the saintly spirit that is a treasure of great value to those that hunger and thirst for righteousness.1+2+3+4+ = the will of God.
Pierre
Pierre,They all share that in common.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 21 2011,19:50) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 20 2011,17:15) KERWIN Quote 1) The Kingdom of God is all creation as everything is his.
2) The Kingdom of God is the kingdom of of Judah-Israel/Samaria and associated kingdoms.
3) The Kingdom of God is the good news as in the net thrown into the sea to catch fish.
4) The kingdom of God is the saintly spirit that is a treasure of great value to those that hunger and thirst for righteousness.1+2+3+4+ = the will of God.
Pierre
Pierre,They all share that in common.
kerwinJn 4:21 Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
Jn 4:22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Jn 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
Jn 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”what happen to US when we worship in truth and spirit ?
and God is spirit ,what kingdom does he have ? spirit ? or physical ?
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 22 2011,06:00) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 21 2011,19:50) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 20 2011,17:15) KERWIN Quote 1) The Kingdom of God is all creation as everything is his.
2) The Kingdom of God is the kingdom of of Judah-Israel/Samaria and associated kingdoms.
3) The Kingdom of God is the good news as in the net thrown into the sea to catch fish.
4) The kingdom of God is the saintly spirit that is a treasure of great value to those that hunger and thirst for righteousness.1+2+3+4+ = the will of God.
Pierre
Pierre,They all share that in common.
kerwinJn 4:21 Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
Jn 4:22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Jn 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
Jn 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”what happen to US when we worship in truth and spirit ?
and God is spirit ,what kingdom does he have ? spirit ? or physical ?
Pierre
Pierre,The one that worships God in the saintly spirit has the kingdom of God within them as is witnessed by the fruit they bear.
God rules all his creation. His word rules those kingdoms, organizations, and individuals who seek his righteousness and so his kingdom. His Spirit rules all of those that live according to it and so have received it.
The first is corporeal the last are non-corporeal.
Kerwin
Quote God rules all his creation. His word rules those kingdoms, organizations, and individuals who seek his righteousness and so his kingdom. His Spirit rules all of those that live according to it and so have received it. if God rules all his creation ,why is it that Christ show us to pray for ;;Mt 6:9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
“ ‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
Mt 6:10 your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.is this not seams to contradict you view
is rules = love ??Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 23 2011,07:08) Kerwin Quote God rules all his creation. His word rules those kingdoms, organizations, and individuals who seek his righteousness and so his kingdom. His Spirit rules all of those that live according to it and so have received it. if God rules all his creation ,why is it that Christ show us to pray for ;;Mt 6:9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
“ ‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
Mt 6:10 your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.is this not seams to contradict you view
is rules = love ??Pierre
Pierre,It does not contradict my view as God’s rule in heaven is not the same as God’s rule on earth” as he suffers the presence of sin on earth. It will be when God finishes putting all things under the feet of Jesus.
Yes, Jesus is teaching us to petition God that a time when all things are united in love.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2011,02:09) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 23 2011,07:08) Kerwin Quote God rules all his creation. His word rules those kingdoms, organizations, and individuals who seek his righteousness and so his kingdom. His Spirit rules all of those that live according to it and so have received it. if God rules all his creation ,why is it that Christ show us to pray for ;;Mt 6:9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
“ ‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
Mt 6:10 your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.is this not seams to contradict you view
is rules = love ??Pierre
Pierre,It does not contradict my view as God’s rule in heaven is not the same as God’s rule on earth” as he suffers the presence of sin on earth. It will be when God finishes putting all things under the feet of Jesus.
Yes, Jesus is teaching us to petition God that a time when all things are united in love.
KerwinQuote It will be when God finishes putting all things under the feet of Jesus. 1Co 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.lease check your statement ,you are confusing God and Christ
Pierre
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