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hi david,
Christ the king lives and rules in the submitted sons of God. That is the kingdom of God [through Christ]now.
“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” Rom 3.23
So can we clean ourselves then to make ourselves holy? No way david.
“Our righteousness is as filthy rags”
We need to repent and be baptised into the death of Jesus Christ [Rom 6]to partake of his righteousness-he is THE Holy One of God.The kingdom is a government created for a purpose. It is made up of the holy ones as well as Jesus. Jesus recieved it from his father.
I know Romans 3:23 too Nick.
I've already said that no one is sinless. Yet, Jehovah's words cannot be nullified: “You must be holy, because I am holy.”
1 PETER 1:15-16
“but, in accord with the Holy One who called YOU, do YOU also become holy yourselves in all [YOUR] conduct, because it is written: “YOU must be holy, because I am holy.””
Being holy (clean) doesn't mean being sinless, for that's impossible right now. We are told to imitate our heavenly father. “Holy Holy Holy is Jehovah of armies.” So, we are to try to be clean, or holy in a spiritual, moral, and physical way.The Christian holy ones
The holy ones are persons brought into relationship with God by means of the new covenant are sanctified, cleansed, and set apart for God’s exclusive service by “the blood of the covenant,” the shed blood of Jesus Christ. (Heb 10:29; 13:20) They are thereby constituted “holy ones” (“saints” in KJ and some other versions). Consequently, they do not become “holy ones,” or “saints,” by decree of a man or an organization, but by God, who brings them into covenant relationship with himself through the blood of Jesus Christ. The term “holy ones” applies to all those thus brought into union and joint heirship with Christ, not to a mere few considered to have exceptional holiness. It is also applied in the Bible to them from the beginning of their sanctified course on earth, not being deferred until after their death. Peter says they must be holy because God is holy. (1Pe 1:15, 16; Le 11:44) All the spiritual brothers of Christ in the congregations are frequently called “holy ones.”—Ac 9:13; 26:10; Ro 1:7; 12:13; 2Co 1:1; 13:13.LUKE 22:28-29
““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,”Hi david,
The real issue is which point of view is the most important, that of God or man. The church that Peter identified were those who were chosen by God, sprinkled with the blood of Jesus and sharers in the Holy Spirit. They had been cleansed and forgiven, and had to stay clean, but they had not cleansed themselves. That is not possible. Holiness is of God and not of man.Didn't I just say that in the post above yours?
“they do not become “holy ones,” or “saints,” by decree of a man or an organization, but by God, who brings them into covenant relationship with himself through the blood of Jesus Christ.”
So david,
Who knows then if God has brought him into such a covenant relationship? Is it not necessary to know if God has done so or do you just wait and hope?We're talking about the kingdom of God in this thread, and the reason I have been talking about these holy ones, is that they make up this kingdom along with Jesus.
Kingdom=heavenly government ruled by a king, along with the holy ones.Next, we've discussed the earth and how the meek will inherit the earth, how there is to be a new heavens, (a new system of rulership, the kingdom) and a new earth (earth with people that want to worship Jehovah)
We've discussed how the people that are “bought from the earth,” and have the heavenly calling, go to heaven go their for a purpose, to rule, to judge, to be priests for mankind. These holy ones rule with Christ Jesus over the earth. Over the thousand year reign, the benefits of Christ's ransom will be applied, as mankind is brought to perfection. All good people do not go to heaven, but those who go there go for a specific purpose, so the number that go, the “little flock” need not be a large number.LUKE 12:32
““Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.”How many people live in your country? How many people make up the government in the country in which you live? A much much much smaller number.
The holy ones who make up this kingdom go to heaven for a purpose.So would there have to be a large number that make up the group that go to heaven, or could it be a “little flock,” as Jesus said?
Nick said: “So david,
Who knows then if God has brought him into such a covenant relationship? Is it not necessary to know if God has done so or do you just wait and hope?”Nick, we're discussing this topic in the JW thread. Well, we're discussing how to recognize Jesus true disciples. We haven't really got into the Abba, Father, the spirit cries out, topic, but I'd prefer to move this along slower.
Hi david,
It is your contention men go to heaven but no evidence has convinced me. A little flock are all sheep and not goats. They have gone to the shepherd and gone through the gate and do not number 144,000.Your jumping ahead again. I haven't really discussed the number that go to heaven too much yet.
CAN WE PLEASE JUST AGREE THAT A LITTLE NUMBER OF PEOPLE MAKE UP THE KINGDOM?
and yes, of course the little flock are not goats. Why would Jehovah give goats the kingdom?
I almost feel like starting a new topic: Does anyone go to heaven? But, since we're discussing the “heavenly kingdom,” made up of people that go to heaven, we might as well just discuss that topic here, in this thread.
I still find it hard to believe that you don't think anyone goes to heaven. To put that another way, I also find it hard to believe that you know people will be living on the earth. I have always found myself trying to explain that to people.
Actually, before I go looking for the scriptures that will show that a select few, a “little flock” do go to heaven for a purpose, can we reverse this and can you explain why you don't believe anyone goes to heaven.
You've probably explained this before, maybe on this forum.
That is easy david,
What I believe is what is shown in scripture and scripture does not say men go to heaven.CAN WE PLEASE JUST AGREE THAT A RELATIVELY LITTLE NUMBER OF PEOPLE MAKE UP THE KINGDOM?
I'm just going to keep repeating that.
OK, I'll go look for scriptures that say people go to heaven.
Actually, I'll probably do that tonight.
bye for now.david
Hi david,
“the road is narrow and few will choose it”
Of the 10 saved bridesmaids only 5 were awake when the master returns.
Yes I believe few will be in the first resurrection or raptured.“God knows those who are His”
Do men?
In responce to my repeated question: “Will a little number of people make up the kingdom?”
YOU SAY:
“YES I BELIEVE FEW WILL BE IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION OR RAPTURED,”OK, that's all I was looking for. Relatively few make up the “heavenly kingdom,” and they make up this kingdom for a purpose. I guess I can't go on to explain how those few number 144000 who will go to heaven if you don't believe any go to heaven. So….here goes.
THOSE WHO GO TO HEAVEN….
Christ Jesus became “higher than the heavens” (Heb 7:26) in that he was thereby placed “far above every government and authority and power and lordship . . . not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.”—Eph 1:19-21; Mt 28:18.
Christian followers of Jesus, as “partakers of the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1), are assigned by God as “heirs” in union with Christ, through whom God purposed “to gather all things together again.” “The things in the heavens,” that is, those called to heavenly life, are the first to be thus gathered into unity with God through Christ. (Eph 1:8-11) Their inheritance is “reserved in the heavens.” (1Pe 1:3, 4; Col 1:5; compare Joh 14:2, 3.) They are “enrolled” and have their “citizenship” in the heavens. (Heb 12:20-23; Php 3:20) They form the “New Jerusalem” seen in John’s vision as “coming down out of heaven from God.” (Re 21:2, 9, 10; compare Eph 5:24-27.) Since this vision is initially stated to be of “a new heaven and a new earth” (Re 21:1), it follows that both are represented in what is thereafter described. Hence the “new heaven” must correspond to Christ together with his “bride,” the “New Jerusalem,” and the “new earth” is seen in the ‘peoples of mankind’ who are their subjects and who receive the blessings of their rule, as depicted in verses 3 and 4.Thank you,
But you have no direct scriptural evidence that men ever go to heaven but you draw conclusions by inference?THOSE WHO GO TO HEAVEN
At Pentecost, Peter said of David that he “did not ascend to the heavens.” (Ac 2:34) IN REALITY, NICK, THERE IS NOTHING IN THE SCRIPTURES TO SHOW THAT A HEAVENLY HOPE WAS HELD OUT TO GOD'S SERVANTS PRIOR TO THE COMING OF JESUS CHRIST. Such hope first appears in Jesus’ expressions to his disciples (Mt 19:21, 23-28; Lu 12:32; Joh 14:2, 3) and was fully comprehended by them only after Pentecost of 33 C.E.—Ac 1:6-8; 2:1-4, 29-36; Ro 8:16, 17
MATTHEW 19:21
“Jesus said to him: “If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven, and come be my follower.””MATTHEW 19:23-28
“But Jesus said to his disciples: “Truly I say to YOU that it will be a difficult thing for a rich man to get into the kingdom of the heavens. Again I say to YOU, It is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard that, they expressed very great surprise, saying: “Who really can be saved?” Looking them in the face, Jesus said to them: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Then Peter said to him in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what actually will there be for us?” Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”LUKE 12:32
““Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.”JOHN 14:2-3
“In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be.”ACTS 1:6-8
“When, now, they had assembled, they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He said to them: “It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction; but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de´a and Sa·mar´i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.””ACTS 2:1-4
“Now while the day of the [festival of] Pentecost was in progress they were all together at the same place, and suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting. And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed about, and one sat upon each one of them, and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance.”ACTS 2:29-36
““Men, brothers, it is allowable to speak with freeness of speech to YOU concerning the family head David, that he both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day. Therefore, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one from the fruitage of his loins upon his throne, he saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Ha´des nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear. Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom YOU impaled.””ROMANS 8:16-17
“The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”The Scriptures show that Christ Jesus was the first one to ascend from earth to the heavens of God’s presence. (1Co 15:20; Heb 9:24) By such ascension and his presentation of his ransom sacrifice there, he ‘opened the way’ for those who would follow—the spirit-begotten members of his congregation. (Joh 14:2, 3; Heb 6:19, 20; 10:19, 20) In their resurrection these must bear “the image of the heavenly one,” Christ Jesus, in order to ascend to the heavens of the spirit plane, for “flesh and blood” cannot inherit that heavenly Kingdom.—1Co 15:42-50.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”HEBREWS 9:24
“For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.”JOHN 14:2-3
“In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be.”HEBREWS 6:19-20
“This [hope] we have as an anchor for the soul, both sure and firm, and it enters in within the curtain, where a forerunner has entered in our behalf, Jesus, who has become a high priest according to the manner of Mel·chiz´e·dek forever.”HEBREWS 10:19-20
“Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh,”1 CORINTHIANS 15:42-50
“So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven. As the one made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one. However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”THOSE WHO GO TO HEAVEN
The apostle Paul in his letter to the Ephesians speaks of Christians then living on earth as though they were already enjoying a heavenly position, being raised up and “seated . . . together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus.” (Eph 1:3; 2:6) The context shows that anointed Christians are so viewed by God because of his having ‘assigned them as heirs’ with his Son in the heavenly inheritance. While yet on earth, they have been exalted, or ‘lifted up,’ by such assignment. (Eph 1:11, 18-20; 2:4-7, 22) These points also shed light on the symbolic vision at Revelation 11:12. Likewise it provides a key for understanding the prophetic picture contained at Daniel 8:9-12, where what has previously been shown to represent a political power is spoken of as “getting greater all the way to the army of the heavens,” and even causing some of that army and of the stars to fall to the earth. At Daniel 12:3, those servants of God on earth at the foretold time of the end are spoken of as shining “like the stars to time indefinite.” Note, too, the symbolic use of stars in the book of Revelation, chapters 1 through 3, where the context shows that such “stars” refer to persons who are obviously living on earth and undergoing earthly experiences and temptations, these “stars” being responsible for congregations under their care.—Re 1:20; 2:1, 8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 14.
THOSE WHO GO TO HEAVEN
The way to heavenly life. The way to heavenly life involves more than just faith in Christ’s ransom sacrifice and works of faith in obedience to God’s instructions. The inspired writings of the apostles and disciples show that there must also be a calling and choosing of one by God through his Son. (2Ti 1:9, 10; Mt 22:14; 1Pe 2:9) This invitation involves a number of steps, or actions, taken to qualify such a one for the heavenly inheritance; many of such steps are taken by God, others by the one called. Among such steps, or actions, are the declaring righteous of the called Christian (Ro 3:23, 24, 28; 8:33, 34); bringing him forth (‘begetting him’) as a spiritual son (Joh 1:12, 13; 3:3-6; Jas 1:18); his being baptized into Christ’s death (Ro 6:3, 4; Php 3:8-11); anointing him (2Co 1:21; 1Jo 2:20, 27); sanctifying him (Joh 17:17). The called one must maintain integrity until death (2Ti 2:11-13; Re 2:10), and after he has proved faithful in his calling and selection (Re 17:14), he is finally resurrected to spirit life.—Joh 6:39, 40; Ro 6:5; 1Co 15:42-49
Quote (david @ Sep. 06 2005,22:53) THOSE WHO GO TO HEAVEN At Pentecost, Peter said of David that he “did not ascend to the heavens.” (Ac 2:34) IN REALITY, NICK, THERE IS NOTHING IN THE SCRIPTURES TO SHOW THAT A HEAVENLY HOPE WAS HELD OUT TO GOD'S SERVANTS PRIOR TO THE COMING OF JESUS CHRIST. Such hope first appears in Jesus’ expressions to his disciples (Mt 19:21, 23-28; Lu 12:32; Joh 14:2, 3) and was fully comprehended by them only after Pentecost of 33 C.E.—Ac 1:6-8; 2:1-4, 29-36; Ro 8:16, 17
MATTHEW 19:21
“Jesus said to him: “If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven, and come be my follower.””MATTHEW 19:23-28
“But Jesus said to his disciples: “Truly I say to YOU that it will be a difficult thing for a rich man to get into the kingdom of the heavens. Again I say to YOU, It is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard that, they expressed very great surprise, saying: “Who really can be saved?” Looking them in the face, Jesus said to them: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Then Peter said to him in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what actually will there be for us?” Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”LUKE 12:32
““Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom.”JOHN 14:2-3
“In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be.”ACTS 1:6-8
“When, now, they had assembled, they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He said to them: “It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction; but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju·de´a and Sa·mar´i·a and to the most distant part of the earth.””ACTS 2:1-4
“Now while the day of the [festival of] Pentecost was in progress they were all together at the same place, and suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting. And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed about, and one sat upon each one of them, and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance.”ACTS 2:29-36
““Men, brothers, it is allowable to speak with freeness of speech to YOU concerning the family head David, that he both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day. Therefore, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one from the fruitage of his loins upon his throne, he saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Ha´des nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear. Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom YOU impaled.””ROMANS 8:16-17
“The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”
Hi david,
The Kingdom of heaven for men is on earth. It is ruled ultimately from heaven by God but King Jesus Christ, in the seat of David, and his brothers rule it on earth.
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