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David said:
Quote But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone. TO ALL:
David's statement above is true but not as the JW's mean it. The JW's mean to say that Christ has nothing to with the subjugation of His enemies. This is a half truth and a half truth is a lie.
What is a half truth?
Quote A half-truth is a deceptive statement that includes some element of truth. The statement might be partly true, the statement may be totally true but only part of the whole truth, or it may utilize some deceptive element, such as improper punctuation, or double meaning, especially if the intent is to deceive, evade, blame or misrepresent the truth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-truthThe statement that God will subjugate Christ's enemies is totally true but is only a part of the whole truth.
The WHOLE truth is that Christ will also subjugate His enemies. This is because He always acts as one with His Father. Paul said that Christ will subdue His enemies:
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself. Philippians 3:21
Christ will transform our lowly bodies. In this act He destroys the last enemy which is death. He destroys this enemy “according to the power by which He is able to subdue all things unto Himself.”
Please don't ever forget that a half truth is a lie. One who does not tell the whole truth in a court of law is a perjuror. I am therefore prompted to say that the JW's are perjurors.
In logic the half truth is very similar to The Reductive Fallacy
What is The Reductive Fallacy?
This occurs when humans suppose that a description on one level excludes or invalidates a description on another level.
Quote You commit the reductive fallacy when you stop with a one level description when there are many levels to be described. You are mistaken when you “reduce” a complex entity to only one of its many aspects. Don't You Believe It! Poking holes in faulty logic, A. J. Hoover, p. 25-26
There are at least two apsects to the subjugation of Christ's enemies. But the JW's STOP at the one level. They confess that the Father subdues Christ's enemies to the point that they invalidate that Christ also subdues His enemies.They deny the clear biblical principle regarding the Father and the Son which is this: The Father and the Son always act together as one.
Example:
Jesus said that He keeps His own sheep from harm. He said also that His Father keeps them (John 10). They act together as one regarding the safety of Christ's sheep (Christ's sheep and not His Father's sheep). The act of the one Person does not invalidate that the act of the other Person. The JW's want to invalidate the work of Jesus Christ in our redemption. Shame on them!
The JW's speak half truths and they commit the Reductive Fallacy. They also deny the FULL statement found in Psalm 110. They STOP at verse 1 and ignore verses 5-7. Verse 1 says that Christ will sit at Jehovah's right hand until Jehovah makes Christ's enemies His footstool. The JW's comment on this statement to the exclusion of the remainder of the Psalm. In verse 5 David replies to Jehovah saying,
Quote 5 My Adonay (God) is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.
King David acknowledged that the person sitting at Jehovah's right hand was His “Adonay”. The Hebrew form “Adonay” ALWAYS refers to God! Therefore, David believed that the person sitting at Jehovah's right hand was His God.Then David says, “He shall judge, fill, execute and drink and lift up His head”. Therefore, Christ at God's right hand works together with God to subdue Christ's enemies.
But one person here has said that Christ does not reign at God's right hand but is “waiting” for God to subdue His enemies.
If the JW's would only comment on statements in their context.
Kangaroo Jack
Man…I was going to do the same thing…. You took my flame,
Ran me over, Reversed, and Went off again.
Now i have to wait for my chance to mention this scripture again.
I will emphasis on the last part later.
I second your post!
Half Truth, agreed.
The sheep analysis, also a analysis i made on another post…on John 10…. grr….. (agreed)
I have no idea who is a JW here or not… maybe that would help me understand ppl better.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 24 2010,16:44) Man…I was going to do the same thing…. You took my flame,
Ran me over, Reversed, and Went off again.
Now i have to wait for my chance to mention this scripture again.
I will emphasis on the last part later.
I second your post!
Half Truth, agreed.
The sheep analysis, also a analysis i made on another post…on John 10…. grr….. (agreed)
I have no idea who is a JW here or not… maybe that would help me understand ppl better.
Hi SFDavid is a JW and Mikeboll is JW in 99% of his doctrine!
Blessings Keith
Mike said to Kangaroo Jack:
Quote Btw, it is Scripture that tells us that Jesus now sits at God's right hand, WAITING for his enemies to BE MADE a footstool for his feet. Instead of heresy accusations, maybe you could actually answer to what the Bible teaches for once? WJ replied to Mike:
Quote You are taking Jack out of context. Jacks point is not that Jesus is waiting but that Jesus is the one who will subdue his enemies under his feet which you are denying.
Mike said that christ does not reign now. I then asked him what Christ is doing at God's right hand and His reply was this, “He is waiting for God to make His enemies His footstool”.According to Paul: He must REIGN UNTIL….
According to Mike: He must WAIT until….
TO WJ:
Did you notice that Mike did not produce a statement by me inwhich I “deny” that God will subdue Christ's enemies.
I have always confessed this. But I have said that christ will also subdue His enemies because He and His father always act together as one. Mike explicitly denied that the two persons act as one.Mike does nothing but accuse falsely here. Jesus was also accused falsely for saying things He did not say. I rejoice that He counts me worthy to suffer with Him.
From OP:
David said:
Quote But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone. TO ALL:
David's statement above is true but not as the JW's mean it. The JW's mean to say that Christ has nothing to with the subjugation of His enemies. This is a half truth and a half truth is a lie.
What is a half truth?
Quote A half-truth is a deceptive statement that includes some element of truth. The statement might be partly true, the statement may be totally true but only part of the whole truth, or it may utilize some deceptive element, such as improper punctuation, or double meaning, especially if the intent is to deceive, evade, blame or misrepresent the truth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-truthThe statement that God will subjugate Christ's enemies is totally true but is only a part of the whole truth.
The WHOLE truth is that Christ will also subjugate His enemies. This is because He always acts as one with His Father. Paul said that Christ will subdue His enemies:
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself. Philippians 3:21
Christ will transform our lowly bodies. In this act He destroys the last enemy which is death. He destroys this enemy “according to the power by which He is able to subdue all things unto Himself.”
Please don't ever forget that a half truth is a lie. One who does not tell the whole truth in a court of law is a perjuror. I am therefore prompted to say that the JW's are perjurors.
In logic the half truth is very similar to The Reductive Fallacy
What is The Reductive Fallacy?
This occurs when humans suppose that a description on one level excludes or invalidates a description on another level.
Quote You commit the reductive fallacy when you stop with a one level description when there are many levels to be described. You are mistaken when you “reduce” a complex entity to only one of its many aspects. Don't You Believe It! Poking holes in faulty logic, A. J. Hoover, p. 25-26
There are at least two apsects to the subjugation of Christ's enemies. But the JW's STOP at the one level. They confess that the Father subdues Christ's enemies to the point that they invalidate that Christ also subdues His enemies.They deny the clear biblical principle regarding the Father and the Son which is this: The Father and the Son always act together as one.
Example:
Jesus said that He keeps His own sheep from harm. He said also that His Father keeps them (John 10). They act together as one regarding the safety of Christ's sheep (Christ's sheep and not His Father's sheep). The act of the one Person does not invalidate that the act of the other Person. The JW's want to invalidate the work of Jesus Christ in our redemption. Shame on them!
The JW's speak half truths and they commit the Reductive Fallacy. They also deny the FULL statement found in Psalm 110. They STOP at verse 1 and ignore verses 5-7. Verse 1 says that Christ will sit at Jehovah's right hand until Jehovah makes Christ's enemies His footstool. The JW's comment on this statement to the exclusion of the remainder of the Psalm. In verse 5 David replies to Jehovah saying,
Quote 5 My Adonay (God) is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.
King David acknowledged that the person sitting at Jehovah's right hand was His “Adonay”. The Hebrew form “Adonay” ALWAYS refers to God! Therefore, David believed that the person sitting at Jehovah's right hand was His God.Then David says, “He shall judge, fill, execute and drink and lift up His head”. Therefore, Christ at God's right hand works together with God to subdue Christ's enemies.
But one person here has said that Christ does not reign at God's right hand but is “waiting” for God to subdue His enemies.
If the JW's would only comment on statements in their context.
Kangaroo Jack
KJ, I don't know where to begin. First, I would say you should visit one of the “fallacies” in thinking threads. (I created one of them precisely because of posts like this and people like you.)
Did you know that calling something a fallacy when it is not is itself a fallacy?
You falsely state:
Quote The JW's mean to say that Christ has nothing to with the subjugation of His enemies. This is a half truth and a half truth is a lie. This is an extremely bizarre post in that you decided to pick something completely false to try to make your point.
We of course actually believe that Christ has been appointed by God and will take the lead in the destruction of his enemies.
You can't just randomly make stuff up.
It is so ironic that you go on to talk so much about half truths and explain clear thinking….
Quote (david @ July 01 2010,09:54) KJ, I don't know where to begin. First, I would say you should visit one of the “fallacies” in thinking threads. (I created one of them precisely because of posts like this and people like you.) Did you know that calling something a fallacy when it is not is itself a fallacy?
You falsely state:
Quote The JW's mean to say that Christ has nothing to with the subjugation of His enemies. This is a half truth and a half truth is a lie. This is an extremely bizarre post in that you decided to pick something completely false to try to make your point.
We of course actually believe that Christ has been appointed by God and will take the lead in the destruction of his enemies.
You can't just randomly make stuff up.
It is so ironic that you go on to talk so much about half truths and explain clear thinking….
David,I owe you and the JW's an apology here. I was going by Mikeboll's assertions. Since this post I have talked with JW acquaintances about Mike's views and they assure me that his views do not accutately represent the JW's. They even said that he is an apostate which they called the “evil slave class.”
Since my discussion with these acquaintances I no longer assume that Mike speaks accurately of the JW beliefs.
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 01 2010,10:00) David, I owe you and the JW's an apology here. I was going by Mikeboll's assertions. Since this post I have talked with JW acquaintances about Mike's views and they assure me that his views do not accutately represent the JW's. They even said that he is an apostate which they called the “evil slave class.”
Since my discussion with these acquaintances I no longer assume that Mike speaks accurately of the JW beliefs.
KJ
Jack, when will you learn?
First, I'm not a JW and disagree with some of their interpretations of scripture. I think, however that they have most of it correct, IMO.
Second, I said that the only way Jesus could destroy his enemies is if his God first placed them as a stool for his feet.
In other words, Jesus' power to do anything has always come from his God and always will.
Stop misrepresenting – it makes you look stupid.
mike
Mike to KJ:
Quote First, I'm not a JW and disagree with some of their interpretations of scripture. I think, however that they have most of it correct, IMO. . . . Stop misrepresenting – it makes you look stupid. Mike, you are right. We do agree on some things.
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