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The only qualification for Jesus to be Messiah is God willing for it to be so:
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luke 3:7-9To All,
Though I am addressing what Gene wrote. I invite anyone that is interested to follow our discussion.
Gene wrote:
Quote Kerwin……….Read the Posted link by ADAM it shows that the Curse was indeed lifted, When he repented in captivity, He was told he would be childless, but after repentance, he had six or eight kids, and He also was restored to Power . God has said else where he would never withhold mercy from the house of David, don't know where it is at right now but i can find it. Kerwin read it and see what you think.
I read his point and found a dispute between the experts. In one case the New International Version reads.
Jeremiah 22:30(NIV) reads:
Quote This is what the LORD says:
“Record this man as if childless,
a man who will not prosper in his lifetime,
for none of his offspring will prosper,
none will sit on the throne of David
or rule anymore in Judah.”And
Jeremiah 22:30(KJV) reads:
Quote Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.
Just before the scripture he stated Jeremiah also states:
Jeremiah 22:30(NIV) reads:
Quote Is this man Jehoiachin a despised, broken pot,
an object no one wants?
Why will he and his children be hurled out,
cast into a land they do not know?And
Jeremiah 22:30(KJV) reads:
Quote Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?
That certainly sounds like he has children or at least will have them. If you look I have checked an no man of his seed has sat on the throne of Judah since he went into captivity even though there have been a few opportunities including at the present.
I found nothing else to help resolve this dispute among experts.
Gene wrote:
Quote Kerwin……….It does not matter what your quoting says, the linage given is through Joseph that can not be deputed. IMO
I still believe the account in Luke is Mary’s ancestry.
I can see the confusion for those who are not familiar with Jewish thought. My source is the Catholics who claim the Pharisees have what is called levirate law based on the situation when a man dies without male issue. Constitutionalist also mentioned this possibility though I do not know his source.
I am skeptical of that claim but this also brings up a possible parallel rule dealing with when daughter inherit. I do not know if such an interpretation exists but if Mary has no brothers as I speculated earlier then I believe the rights and privilege of the male issue would transferred to Jacob through his marriage to her.
Here is a command in the Law which supports my hypothesis.
Numbers 36:2-9(NIV) reads:
Quote They said, “When the LORD commanded my lord to give the land as an inheritance to the Israelites by lot, he ordered you to give the inheritance of our brother Zelophehad to his daughters. Now suppose they marry men from other Israelite tribes; then their inheritance will be taken from our ancestral inheritance and added to that of the tribe they marry into. And so part of the inheritance allotted to us will be taken away. When the Year of Jubilee for the Israelites comes, their inheritance will be added to that of the tribe into which they marry, and their property will be taken from the tribal inheritance of our forefathers.” Then at the LORD's command Moses gave this order to the Israelites: “What the tribe of the descendants of Joseph is saying is right. This is what the LORD commands for Zelophehad's daughters: They may marry anyone they please as long as they marry within the tribal clan of their father. No inheritance in Israel is to pass from tribe to tribe, for every Israelite shall keep the tribal land inherited from his forefathers. Every daughter who inherits land in any Israelite tribe must marry someone in her father's tribal clan, so that every Israelite will possess the inheritance of his fathers. No inheritance may pass from tribe to tribe, for each Israelite tribe is to keep the land it inherits.”
Gene wrote:
Quote God has said else where he would never withhold mercy from the house of David, don't know where it is at right now but i can find it. Kerwin read it and see what you think.
He did not withhold mercy even if he rejected Solomon’s line as he stated he did and established Nathan’s like as I speculate.
1 King 8:25(KJV) reads:
Quote Therefore now, LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.
You may not understand the ancient English which seem to use “so that” in place of an “only if”. We still use “so that” as a correlative conjunction though I belie we would reverse the order of the parts of the sentence we are relating. “Only if” get around that.
1 King 8:25(NKJV) reads:
Quote Therefore, LORD God of Israel, now keep what You promised Your servant David my father, saying, ‘You shall not fail to have a man sit before Me on the throne of Israel, only if your sons take heed to their way, that they walk before Me as you have walked before Me.’
In other words since Solomon and his line repetitively violated the condition God set on the promise, he removed them and then he chose to show mercy to Nathan’s line instead.
I believe all of what I have stated is in accordance which what God stated. I have also presented the supporting scriptural evidence.
Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 21 2009,17:32) Hi brother Kerwin,
Here is one of the excellent Christian explanation of Jesus genealogy through Solomon and Jehoiachin.
I read it. The Christian in question is a Messianic Jew who does not seem to believe in the virgin birth. He missed a verse two previous to the one he quoted where he reached the conclusion Jehoiachin would be without children. The verse addresses Jehoiachin's seed. I address the issue more thoroughly in my previous post inviting all to read it.Kerwin……..There is a lot of speculation here, What if GOD was saying none of Jehoiachins, offspring would rule in (Judah) any more because the Kingdom of Judah no longer existed as such. but that does not negate the Kingdom of (ISREAL) would no longer exist. Many confuse the kingdom of Judah with the Kingdom of Israel, they are (not) the Same and never were, even though the Jews are part 1/13 th of Israel nation . When they (the Jews confederated with, Levi, Benjamen) they separated from Israel they became know as the kingdom of (JUDAH) a new KINGDOM, no longer the KINGDOM OF (ISREAL), consisting of the other ten tribes there were two separate KINGDOMS then. GOD said that the Kingdom of Israel would not lack a King of the linage of DAVID not the kingdom of JUDAH a small splinter group.
God words were (ISRAEL) would never lack a king of Davids descent to rule over them, not (the kingdom of Judah), but ISREAL this is another technical issue you failed to consider also. When Jesus sent his disciples to go the the (LOST) sheep of (ISREAL) he was not references the Jews, but ISREAL the Lost ten Tribes which make up the bulk of the Nation of ISREAL, and retained the name the KINGDOM of ISREAL until there captured by the Ancient Assyrians they were not and are not the Jews, this is a misconception of many even today. As i said before while the Jews are part of Israel they are a very (SMALL) part 1/13 th in fact. Israels presents in the wolds today could very easily be a third of the world population, Jews are a very small part of the total peoples of Israel that exist today. The Crown was to be held by ISREAL (not the JEWS). I believe the true Head of ISREAL is the trib of Ephraim and Manasseh The two brothers that JACOB said Let my name(ISREAL) be upon them, nothing to do with the Jews, and Ephraim today is ENGLAND, Jacob said he would become a common wealth of Nations, the only one that fulfills that is ENGLAND. The King and Queen of England may very well be DAVIDS SEED.There are many, many, many, Israelites alive today that have nothing to do with being a JEW. IMO But that is all another subject.
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 19 2009,22:47) Here is the challenge on virgin birth;
“What I will prove is that IF Yeshua was born of a “virgin” mother he is NOT the Messiah of Scripture. Note that I said Messiah “of Scripture”. I will show that the “Christ” of traditional Christianity and counterfeit Messianism is actually derived from pagan mystery sun-god religions from which many traditional Christian teachings originate…”Quote 1. It is NEVER mentioned in ANY of the epistles.
2. It is NEVER mentioned by Yeshua (jesus) the Messiah.
3. It is NEVER mentioned in ANY recorded presentations of the “gospel” in Acts or the epistles.
4. It is NEVER mentioned ANYWHERE as part of a necessary belief a person must accept! EVER!
5. The ONLY place it is mentioned, or even hinted at, is in the alleged (and contradictory) birth accounts of Matthew and Luke!
6. Yet Christianity, counterfeit Messianism, and many monotheistic Messianics consider it a crucial doctrine even though Scripture most certainly shows it to NOT be crucial!You have a lot in common with David, our JW friend. You are showing the crazy places a person can go with Sola Scriptura and Private Interpretation.
Try adding the Church Jesus founded into the equation…your arguments look silly.
Gene wrote:
Quote There is a lot of speculation here
I am speculation to some extent about Mary having no brothers but even then I am basing my hypothesis on what is written in scripture. The only possible flaw I see in my theory about Solomon’s line being dethroned is that I may be taking scriptures too literally and God is not always literal as he expects us to pick up the hidden meaning.
Gene wrote:
Quote When they (the Jews confederated with, Levi, Benjamen) they separated from Israel they became know as the kingdom of (JUDAH) a new KINGDOM, no longer the KINGDOM OF (ISREAL), consisting of the other ten tribes there were two separate KINGDOMS then
I believe the throne of Judah was considered the throne of David because that is where David literally sat. Judah remained loyal to David’s family while Israel rebelled.
Gene wrote:
Quote and Ephraim today is ENGLAND
Despite the questionable claims of the religious sect you were once part of neither the “English” or “Americans” are most likely not the lost tribes of Israel. The lost tribes did not become nomads but rather were dispersed among the nations by Assyria. Those nations would be the nations of the Fertile Crescent and Egypt which were part of the Assyrian Empire. Some Israelites were shipped to Media. Babylonia later conquered Assyria and then Judah about 120 years after Israel was conquered. Many Jews were either taken as slaves or fled to the same places. There does seem to be a genetic link to a people in Ethiopia and some Americans of Irish Decent and Canadians and Americans of French decent of the Jewish hereditary disease Tay Sachs. I believe both the French and Irish have Gaelic blood but I am not sure if that is the link since it only appears on the North American continent.
Gene wrote:
Quote God words were (ISRAEL) would never lack a king of Davids descent to rule over them, not (the kingdom of Judah), but ISREAL this is another technical issue you failed to consider also.
If God stated that in the way you state then he is looking like a liar since Israel does not and his not had a king of David’s line to rule over them since they rebelled against Solomon’s son.
1 King 8:25(NIV) reads:
Quote “Now LORD, God of Israel, keep for your servant David my father the promises you made to him when you said, 'You shall never fail to have a man to sit before me on the throne of Israel, if only your sons are careful in all they do to walk before me as you have done.'
I believe this is the words you are referring to. God did not lie as he put a condition on that promise and Solomon did not fulfill that condition thus forfeiting the promise of the whole kingdom of Israel for his line. Even then he did keep the throne though the kingdom was much smaller and underwent a name change.
Here is the promise with the condition attached once more.
1 King 2:1-4(NIV) reads:
Quote When the time drew near for David to die, he gave a charge to Solomon his son. “I am about to go the way of all the earth,” he said. “So be strong, show yourself a man, and observe what the LORD your God requires: Walk in his ways, and keep his decrees and commands, his laws and requirements, as written in the Law of Moses, so that you may prosper in all you do and wherever you go, and that the LORD may keep his promise to me: 'If your descendants watch how they live, and if they walk faithfully before me with all their heart and soul, you will never fail to have a man on the throne of Israel.'
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 22 2009,07:52) Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 19 2009,22:47) Here is the challenge on virgin birth;
“What I will prove is that IF Yeshua was born of a “virgin” mother he is NOT the Messiah of Scripture. Note that I said Messiah “of Scripture”. I will show that the “Christ” of traditional Christianity and counterfeit Messianism is actually derived from pagan mystery sun-god religions from which many traditional Christian teachings originate…”Quote 1. It is NEVER mentioned in ANY of the epistles.
2. It is NEVER mentioned by Yeshua (jesus) the Messiah.
3. It is NEVER mentioned in ANY recorded presentations of the “gospel” in Acts or the epistles.
4. It is NEVER mentioned ANYWHERE as part of a necessary belief a person must accept! EVER!
5. The ONLY place it is mentioned, or even hinted at, is in the alleged (and contradictory) birth accounts of Matthew and Luke!
6. Yet Christianity, counterfeit Messianism, and many monotheistic Messianics consider it a crucial doctrine even though Scripture most certainly shows it to NOT be crucial!You have a lot in common with David, our JW friend. You are showing the crazy places a person can go with Sola Scriptura and Private Interpretation.
Try adding the Church Jesus founded into the equation…your arguments look silly.
Logic Error alert. The person you are accusing of going to strange places using Sola Scripture is not going according to Sola Scripture which explicitly supports that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus.Kerwin………..Assyria did not mingle with Israel the cast them out of there land and they migrated up through the Caucasus into Europe and became known as Anglo Sac-sons or sons of Issac, They have found new way of tracing the languages and how they changed over time and Have confirmed many word that are of these country's have Hebrew origins. I have study History and many of the Peoples of Europe Just could not be traced in the past but new archaeological credence is surfacing. You and many others will be surprised someday at how many millions of Isrealite descendent's exist today, They were lost Sheep no destroyed sheep and were dispersed into all the nations of the world and some day will be Gathered as GOD said He would. I would venture to say most people on this site are of one of the thirteen tribes of Israel, is it by change we have 13 original colonies and our flag has thirteen stripes and originally had thirteen stars. Why does our eagle hold thirteen arrows and have thirteen tail feathers in our great seal of the United States of America.
Could it be because there were thirteen tribes of Israel…… Ephraim, Manasseh , Benjamin , Judah, Asher, Naphtali, Dan, Levi. Ruben, Simeon, Gad, Issachar, Zebulen = 13 tribes , coincidence maybe but i believe there is more to it then coincidence. IMO
gene
Gene,
I do realize that is the teaching of Herbert Armstrong who has preached false prophecies in the past. The apparent similarities in speech between the Germanic Saxon people and the Semantic Hebrew people could be just a consequence or it could hark back to when the Caucasian people were all one people. I looked up language families and the proto-Semitic and proto-Germanic languages. I have taken the proto-Germanic language one step back to the hypothetical proto-Indo-European language. It seems the ancestors of the Germanic people got around and could have influenced the Hebrew language or vice versa.
There were 12 tribes named after the 12 sons of Israel which is why they are called Israelites. When Moses led the Israelites into Canaan the tribe of Joseph was split in two but it is really still one tribe. I am not sure why this was. Scripture clearly calls at least Manasseh a half tribe and together refers to Ephraim and Manasseh as Joseph. It also refers to them as tribes. So I suppose it depends on context. When God pronounces his judgment on Solomon the one tribe is obviously Judah and the 10 are all but Levi and Judah with Manasseh and Ephraim counted as one tribe and not two separate ones. Levi would have been divided into both kingdoms as the inheritance of the tribe of Levi is the priesthood and not land.
Hi brothers Gene and Kerwin,
You are involved in a deep discussion on the lineage of Messiah. I appreciate both of you for your contribution on this thread. I still part with brother Kerwin in terms of his speculations on Solomon being cut off from Messiah's lineage. He ignores that God establshed the throne of David through Solomon's son Rehoboam. Virgin birth is unnessary for Christianity and it was developed by pagan Christians to attract gentiles into Christianity. I believe Christianity is more paganised because of this alleged virgin birth than any other doctrine.
Hope people will realise this fact.love and peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Oct. 23 2009,18:54) Hi brothers Gene and Kerwin,
You are involved in a deep discussion on the lineage of Messiah. I appreciate both of you for your contribution on this thread. I still part with brother Kerwin in terms of his speculations on Solomon being cut off from Messiah's lineage. He ignores that God establshed the throne of David through Solomon's son Rehoboam. Virgin birth is unnessary for Christianity and it was developed by pagan Christians to attract gentiles into Christianity. I believe Christianity is more paganised because of this alleged virgin birth than any other doctrine.
Hope people will realise this fact.love and peace to you
Adam
Hi Adam:You are teaching what you believe about the virgin birth “as a statement of fact”?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2009,18:24) Gene, I do realize that is the teaching of Herbert Armstrong who has preached false prophecies in the past. The apparent similarities in speech between the Germanic Saxon people and the Semantic Hebrew people could be just a consequence or it could hark back to when the Caucasian people were all one people. I looked up language families and the proto-Semitic and proto-Germanic languages. I have taken the proto-Germanic language one step back to the hypothetical proto-Indo-European language. It seems the ancestors of the Germanic people got around and could have influenced the Hebrew language or vice versa.
There were 12 tribes named after the 12 sons of Israel which is why they are called Israelites. When Moses led the Israelites into Canaan the tribe of Joseph was split in two but it is really still one tribe. I am not sure why this was. Scripture clearly calls at least Manasseh a half tribe and together refers to Ephraim and Manasseh as Joseph. It also refers to them as tribes. So I suppose it depends on context. When God pronounces his judgment on Solomon the one tribe is obviously Judah and the 10 are all but Levi and Judah with Manasseh and Ephraim counted as one tribe and not two separate ones. Levi would have been divided into both kingdoms as the inheritance of the tribe of Levi is the priesthood and not land.
Kerwin……WE are finding out more and more the ancient languages and how they have changed over the centuries, I read an article that showed that the Hebrew language slowly changed over the centuries, but they are tracing them back and finding amazing facts. They have recently uncovered many Hebrew and Jewish graves in ancient Armenia around the Caucuses and are presently excavating them. That would fit the migration path from Israel into Europe fairly well. It may be very well when the Jews were kicked out they wound up in Germany also because they followed after the LOST ten TRIBES of Israel.Your saying that the there were only twelve tribes of Israel is in error Joseph was considered Jacobs (first born) and therefore got a double portion through his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh God even said that Ephraim was his first born son also, But with this addition it would extend the number to 13 tribes of Israel. and the Kingdom of Judah is (NOT) the Kingdom of ISRAEL as shown in scripture in fact in the book of the Kings they were at war with each other. They were separate nations. And Ephraim and Manasseh were not part of the kingdom of Judah That nation consisted of Judah, Levi, Benjamen. The other ten became known as the Kingdom of ISREAL. In fact the apostle Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin .
By the way Armstrong did not write that book < He copied it from a author named Smith. It was in print years before the wwcog published there book.
Gene wrote:
Quote Kerwin……WE are finding out more and more the ancient languages and how they have changed over the centuries, I read an article that showed that the Hebrew language slowly changed over the centuries, but they are tracing them back and finding amazing facts. They have recently uncovered many Hebrew and Jewish graves in ancient Armenia around the Caucuses and are presently excavating them. That would fit the migration path from Israel into Europe fairly well. It may be very well when the Jews were kicked out they wound up in Germany also because they followed after the LOST ten TRIBES of Israel.
The ancestors of the Germans tribes were fairly well spread and are believed to have even influenced the Japanese language. I had not heard about the Armenian graves before this.
Gene wrote:
Quote Your saying that the there were only twelve tribes of Israel is in error.
Elijah supports my claim.
I Kings 18:31(NIV) reads:
Quote Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, “Your name shall be Israel.”
Gene wrote:
Quote That nation consisted of Judah, Levi, Benjamin.
That is not what Judah consisted of when the tribes that would become Israel rebelled. It is plausible that Benjamin was conquered previous to the exile of Israel to the lands of Assyria.
1 Kings 11:32(NIV) reads:
Quote But for the sake of my servant David and the city of Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, he will have one tribe.
And
1 King 12:20(NIV) reads:
Quote When all the Israelites heard that Jeroboam had returned, they sent and called him to the assembly and made him king over all Israel. Only the tribe of Judah remained loyal to the house of David.
There were most likely individual exceptions.
1 King 12:17(NIV) reads:
Quote But as for the Israelites who were living in the towns of Judah, Rehoboam still ruled over them.
I believe Jeremiah was of the tribe of Benjamin since he had land there and he prophesied after the exile of Israel. I also believe at least some of Benjamin land was then part of Judah. Of course it may have been after Babylon conquered both lands would invalidate my hypothosis.
After the exile it does seem that a significant part of the tribe of Benjamin also returned.
Nehemiah 11:4(NIV) reads:
Quote while other people from both Judah and Benjamin lived in Jerusalem):
From the descendants of Judah:Athaiah son of Uzziah, the son of Zechariah, the son of Amariah, the son of Shephatiah, the son of Mahalalel, a descendant of Perez;
Be aware of
MESSIANIC JUDAISM is a religious movement or sect whose congregants comprise both ethnic Jews and Gentiles who believe that Jesus of Nazareth, whom they call Yeshua, is both their savior and the resurrected Jewish Messiah. By 1993 there were 160,000 adherents of Messianic Judaism in the United States and 350,000 worldwide. By 2003, there were at least 150 Messianic synagogues in the U.S. and over 400 worldwide. While Messianic Jews practice their faith in a way that they consider to be authentically Torah-observant and culturally Jewish, all Jewish denominations, as well as national Jewish organizations, reject that Messianic Judaism is a form of Judaism. Most Christians also do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism. Messianic Jews are also not considered Jewish under the State of Israel's Law of Return. According to Israeli Supreme Court Justice Menachem Elon, “In the last two thousand years of history the Jewish people have decided that Messianic Jews do not belong to the Jewish nation. He wrote, “those who believe in Jesus, are, in fact, Christians.”
Jewish objections to Messianic Judaism begin with objections to the term “Messianic Judaism” itself, and to Jesus' messiahship and divinity. According to the Central Conference of American Rabbis:
“For us in the Jewish community, anyone who claims that Jesus is their savior is no longer a Jew and is an apostate. Through that belief they have placed themselves outside the Jewish community. Whether they care to define themselves as a Christian or as a 'fulfilled Jew,' 'Messianic Jew,' or any other designation is irrelevant; to us, they are clearly a Christian.”According to 1998 Audit of Antisemitic Incidents issued by Canadian B'nai Brith, “One of the more alarming trends in antisemitic activity in Canada in 1998 was the growing number of incidents involving messianic organizations posing as “synagogues”. These missionizing organizations are in fact evangelical Christian proselytizing groups, whose purpose is specifically to target members of the Jewish community for conversion. They fraudulently represent themselves as Jews, and these so-called synagogues are elaborately disguised Christian churches.”
JEWS FOR JESUS
Jews for Jesus is a Christian evangelical organization based in San Francisco, California, whose goal is to convince Jews that Jesus is the Messiah and God. Jews for Jesus defines “Jewish” in terms of parentage and as a birthright, regardless of religious belief. Identification of Jews for Jesus as “Jewish” is overwhelmingly rejected by Jewish religious denominations, secular groups and the State of Israel due to the Christian beliefs of its members.Jews for Jesus is a member of numerous evangelical Christian groups, including The World Evangelical Alliance, the National Association of Evangelicals, the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, the World Evangelical Fellowship, and the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada. The organization was founded under the name Hineni Ministries in 1973 by Moishe Rosen, an ordained Baptist minister who was born Jewish but converted to Christianity at the age of 17. The group's financial support largely comes from a variety of Christian groups, described as “a number of Bible schools, and individual Christian donations…”. It has “a full-time staff of 150 employees running branch offices in nine cities across the United States. There are also branch offices in Australia, Brazil, Canada (Montreal, Toronto), France, Germany (Essen), Israel, Russia, South Africa, United Kingdom, Ukraine (Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkov, Kiev, Odessa). In addition to English language, the group runs websites in Hungarian, Persian, Italian, Spanish, and Korean languages.
The organization is known for targeting populations of Jews such as recent immigrants, college students, senior citizens and interfaith couples. Evangelists are trained to recite phrases from the Hebrew Bible and to use Yiddish words in order to convince potential converts that Jews for Jesus maintain Jewish traditions. They use deceptive tactics in its attempt to convert Jews to Christianity. Critics claim that JfJ uses the ambiguity in the definition of “Jew” and “Jewish” to confuse their prospective converts into believing there is a possibility of one being a follower of both Judaism and Christianity simultaneously.In 1993, the Task Force on Missionaries and Cults of the Jewish Community Relations Council of New York (JCRCNY) issued a statement which has been endorsed by the four major Jewish denominations: Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism, Reform Judaism, and Reconstructionist Judaism, as well as national Jewish organizations. Based on this statement, the Spiritual Deception Prevention Project at the JCRCNY stated:
“On several occasions leaders of the four major Jewish movements have signed on to joint statements opposing Hebrew-Christian theology and tactics. In part they said: “Though Hebrew Christianity claims to be a form of Judaism, it is not … It deceptively uses the sacred symbols of Jewish observance … as a cover to convert Jews to Christianity, a belief system antithetical to Judaism … Hebrew Christians are in radical conflict with the communal interests and the destiny of the Jewish people. They have crossed an unbridgeable chasm by accepting another religion. Despite this separation, they continue to attempt to convert their former co-religionists.”
The Interfaith Conference of Metropolitan Washington, an umbrella organization that includes Muslims, Jews, and church groups from the Roman Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran and Presbyterian churches, has condemned Jews for Jesus as promoting activities “harmful to the spirit of interreligious respect and tolerance.” The conference also denounces the group's “deceptive proselytizing efforts”, stating that when practiced on “vulnerable populations” such as the young or the elderly, these efforts are “tantamount to coerced conversions.” The Board of Governors of The Long Island Council of Churches, voiced similar sentiments in a statement that “noted with alarm” the “subterfuge and dishonesty” inherent in the “mixing [of] religious symbols in ways which distort their essential meaning.” In 1996, Pope John Paul II said Jews shouldn't be targeted for conversion. Christian denominations that have issued statements criticizing evangelism of Jews include the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the United Church of Christ and the Presbyterian Church USA, which said in 1988 that Jews have their own covenant with God.
Isaiah 53 : A Jewish Interpretation
Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 27 2009,13:04) Be aware of MESSIANIC JUDAISM is a religious movement or sect whose congregants comprise both ethnic Jews and Gentiles who believe that Jesus of Nazareth, whom they call Yeshua, is both their savior and the resurrected Jewish Messiah. By 1993 there were 160,000 adherents of Messianic Judaism in the United States and 350,000 worldwide. By 2003, there were at least 150 Messianic synagogues in the U.S. and over 400 worldwide. While Messianic Jews practice their faith in a way that they consider to be authentically Torah-observant and culturally Jewish, all Jewish denominations, as well as national Jewish organizations, reject that Messianic Judaism is a form of Judaism. Most Christians also do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism. Messianic Jews are also not considered Jewish under the State of Israel's Law of Return. According to Israeli Supreme Court Justice Menachem Elon, “In the last two thousand years of history the Jewish people have decided that Messianic Jews do not belong to the Jewish nation. He wrote, “those who believe in Jesus, are, in fact, Christians.”
Jewish objections to Messianic Judaism begin with objections to the term “Messianic Judaism” itself, and to Jesus' messiahship and divinity. According to the Central Conference of American Rabbis:
“For us in the Jewish community, anyone who claims that Jesus is their savior is no longer a Jew and is an apostate. Through that belief they have placed themselves outside the Jewish community. Whether they care to define themselves as a Christian or as a 'fulfilled Jew,' 'Messianic Jew,' or any other designation is irrelevant; to us, they are clearly a Christian.”According to 1998 Audit of Antisemitic Incidents issued by Canadian B'nai Brith, “One of the more alarming trends in antisemitic activity in Canada in 1998 was the growing number of incidents involving messianic organizations posing as “synagogues”. These missionizing organizations are in fact evangelical Christian proselytizing groups, whose purpose is specifically to target members of the Jewish community for conversion. They fraudulently represent themselves as Jews, and these so-called synagogues are elaborately disguised Christian churches.”
JEWS FOR JESUS
Jews for Jesus is a Christian evangelical organization based in San Francisco, California, whose goal is to convince Jews that Jesus is the Messiah and God. Jews for Jesus defines “Jewish” in terms of parentage and as a birthright, regardless of religious belief. Identification of Jews for Jesus as “Jewish” is overwhelmingly rejected by Jewish religious denominations, secular groups and the State of Israel due to the Christian beliefs of its members.Jews for Jesus is a member of numerous evangelical Christian groups, including The World Evangelical Alliance, the National Association of Evangelicals, the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, the World Evangelical Fellowship, and the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada. The organization was founded under the name Hineni Ministries in 1973 by Moishe Rosen, an ordained Baptist minister who was born Jewish but converted to Christianity at the age of 17. The group's financial support largely comes from a variety of Christian groups, described as “a number of Bible schools, and individual Christian donations…”. It has “a full-time staff of 150 employees running branch offices in nine cities across the United States. There are also branch offices in Australia, Brazil, Canada (Montreal, Toronto), France, Germany (Essen), Israel, Russia, South Africa, United Kingdom, Ukraine (Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkov, Kiev, Odessa). In addition to English language, the group runs websites in Hungarian, Persian, Italian, Spanish, and Korean languages.
The organization is known for targeting populations of Jews such as recent immigrants, college students, senior citizens and interfaith couples. Evangelists are trained to recite phrases from the Hebrew Bible and to use Yiddish words in order to convince potential converts that Jews for Jesus maintain Jewish traditions. They use deceptive tactics in its attempt to convert Jews to Christianity. Critics claim that JfJ uses the ambiguity in the definition of “Jew” and “Jewish” to confuse their prospective converts into believing there is a possibility of one being a follower of both Judaism and Christianity simultaneously.In 1993, the Task Force on Missionaries and Cults of the Jewish Community Relations Council of New York (JCRCNY) issued a statement which has been endorsed by the four major Jewish denominations: Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism, Reform Judaism, and Reconstructionist Judaism, as well as national Jewish organizations. Based on this statement, the Spiritual Deception Prevention Project at the JCRCNY stated:
“On several occasions leaders of the four major Jewish movements have signed on to joint statements opposing Hebrew-Christian theology and tactics. In part they said: “Though Hebrew Christianity claims to be a form of Judaism, it is not … It deceptively uses the sacred symbols of Jewish observance … as a cover to convert Jews to Christianity, a belief system antithetical to Judaism … Hebrew Christians are in radical conflict with the communal interests and the destiny of the Jewish people. They have crossed an unbridgeable chasm by accepting another religion. Despite this separation, they continue to attempt to convert their former co-religionists.”
The Interfaith Conference of Metropolitan Washington, an umbrella organization that includes Muslims, Jews, and church groups from the Roman Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran and Presbyterian churches, has condemned Jews for Jesus as promoting activities “harmful to the spirit of interreligious respect and tolerance.” The conference also denounces the group's “deceptive proselytizing efforts”, stating that when practiced on “vulnerable populations” such as the young or the elderly, these efforts are “tantamount to coerced conversions.” The Board of Governors of The Long Island Council of Churches, voiced similar sentiments in a statement that “noted with alarm” the “subterfuge and dishonesty” inherent in the “mixing [of] religious symbols in ways which distort their essential meaning.” In 1996, Pope John Paul II said Jews shouldn't be targeted for conversion. Christian denominations that have issued statements criticizing evangelism of Jews include the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the United Church of Christ and the Presbyterian Church USA, which said in 1988 that Jews have their own covenant with God.
In other words the Jews issuing this warning are Anti-Christians or in other words Anti-Christs.
They are not Jews except perhaps by culture and genetics but they have certainly rejected the God if Abraham in rejecting Jesus.
Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 27 2009,13:51) Isaiah 53 : A Jewish Interpretation
You call them Jews. They do not even know of the true God because they have chosen to embark on Baalam's error.That is a more modern interpretation that I believe came about in the Middle Ages. I would hypothesis it was in repose to Christian evangelism.
The Gabriel Tablet is an interesting example of what at least some Jews believed in 1 BC. Here is a Times article about it.
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