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Quote (Baker @ April 28 2011,12:10) Keith! It's the same then the trinity!!! What kind of Scriptures to you want all the put up??? And where in the Scriptures does it say hypo-stasis?
not even the word trinity is in the Scriptures…..Irene
IreneIt is found in Heb 1:3 and I quote it above but here it is again…
Jesus is the “…radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his “being”, (hypostasis)…” Heb 1:3 NIV
It is the Greek word for “Being” the KJV renders it “person”.
I am interested in what the Forefathers believed concerning the nature of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in relation to “hypostasis”.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 29 2011,09:01) Quote (terraricca @ April 28 2011,03:26)
Scriptures have nothing to do with it so it seems.
PierreNot at all! The scripture says…
Jesus is the “…radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, (hypostasis)…” Heb 1:3
You cannot seperate the sun rays from the sun. Like the sun rays Jesus is the radiance of Gods glory and cannot be seperated for they are completely and totally one as the sun and its rays.
WJthe word may be right but your analogy from it looks weird,
RADIANCEdoes not mean that Christ was shinning like rays,
but more in wisdom and Godly knowledge,this is also radiance ,but of a different kind ,like the true radiance of God.
that is what Paul was talking about,
and this is also true that in that respect we cannot split Christ from his father because of that ,Christ was the reflection in wisdom on earth before all men,and God give him the back up to prove it.(miracles)
just remember scriptures tells us that God is spirit and so it is only in that representation that Christ could be the radiance of his father,showing the knowledge and wisdom of the father.
Christ actions are a testimony to that reality.
Pierre
Terra,
This is true that you say.The Spirit of Christ is the radiance of the spirit of the father.
What Jesus was on Earth was what Jesus was trying to get humanity to become.
Therefore, if Jesus IS God, then those that attain the Spirit of Christ – will be also God!!
This is an end point that is never broached because it would cause a backwash against the 'Jesus is God' theory!
Work backwards: if Jesus IS God – and he says we are to become like him – then he must mean that we too are to become GOD!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 29 2011,04:42) Quote (karmarie @ April 27 2011,22:36) WJ, what is wrong with questioning the validity of (a part of) what the topic is about?
If you actually read what I had posted then you will see that it is actually about the forefathers and what SCRIPTURE could be saying about it. (You call scripture spam?)
Yes to post a ton of scriptures that are not related to the topic is “SPAM”.The topic is about the “Hypostatic Union”. It is not about them being right or wrong.
There is no mention in your post of either the “Forefathers of the NT Church” or the “Hypostatic Union”.
WJ
My apologies then WJ.
Yes please report it as spam if you want to.Quote (Istari @ April 29 2011,16:04) Terra,
This is true that you say.The Spirit of Christ is the radiance of the spirit of the father.
What Jesus was on Earth was what Jesus was trying to get humanity to become.
Therefore, if Jesus IS God, then those that attain the Spirit of Christ – will be also God!!
This is an end point that is never broached because it would cause a backwash against the 'Jesus is God' theory!
Work backwards: if Jesus IS God – and he says we are to become like him – then he must mean that we too are to become GOD!
istarilet it be clear ,Christ is not God and no human can ever become like or God this is a glory what is not shared,
now Christ as a son he is the one that shares his glory with some of his brothers ,but those are numbered to 144000 so if you do not fit in those ,you will never be with Christ exept on earth and recieve benefits from that heavenly government.
if you think men will become like God the father show me that scripture.
Pierre
Hi all
The early forefathers to the best of my understanding were incorporating a word and philosophy of Plato or Aristotle as both used the words in their philosophical framework. Most likely Plato with his “First Principle” philosophy. The Jewish people were very resistant to allowing philosophys and gods from other countries into there life, community or lexicon. They were militarily defeated by the Greeks. Therefore, ideas, philosophys, and words entered their lexicon and culture. The word isn't used in the synoptics or John. Jesus never used it or if he did it isn't recorded in the gospel. The meaning of the word in the NT in my humble researched opinion is “a foundational understanding that has a confidence in real existence”. When you are a lover and keeper of Jesus's words both Christ Jesus and God take up residence in you according to Jesus's own words. When this occurs you,in general, become a hypostasis of God.
With Love and Respect,
WispringWispring: Another excellent post! One problem I have, I don't know what HYPOSTASIS means. I would bet it means something like, united together or one together or a form of melding together or merger from two to one. Total union. ONENESS or one in the same. Blood of blood and bone of bone! What a beautiful truth. No more wondering when Jesus will come or go because he, the father and the spirit are US! IMO, TK
WJ,
I am not sure what you mean when you state the word “hypostasis” is found in scripture. Since I did not find the literal word in scripture and you have not cited a scripture that literally states it I conclude you mean that the ideal expressed by the word “hypostasis” is found in scripture.
From what I understand the meaning you are using for “hypostasis” is ““the substance or essential nature of an individual”, Merriam-Webster’s Online Dictionary. Since that does not seem to fit scripture which clearly states Jesus has two natures one that is descended from King David and the other he received by the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ, I do not believe you mean either one of those are his essential nature. This dovetails with you linking to a Wikipedia entry about the hypostasis union of those two separate natures.
The idea that the two natures are united to become one essential nature is plausible if the two do not conflict. If there is a conflict then difficulties would arise. Scripture states though that Jesus subjected his will to the will of his Father and our Father. So perhaps you speak of an unequal merger.
Your Wikipedia source states Apollinaris of Laodicea, a fourth Century was the first known to use the term in advancing his chosen doctrine against his opponents. Nestorian Theodore of Mopsuestia who made the dyophysite argument seems to be more based on the scripture where Jesus denied his own will to subject himself to the will of his Father and our Father.
You have quoted Hebrews 1:3 and then wrote to Pierre that you cannot separate the Sun rays from the Sun. What you say is true as far as it goes but scientists do not state that the rays of the Sun are part of the sun. The do state the rays of the Sun are emitted by the Sun. In addition a person’s glory is not part of themselves but it is associated with them just like their name is. So Hebrews 1:3 is stating that Jesus is the exhalation of something associated with God. That something could be the Spirit; for God lives in him though the Spirit of Christ and both live in those that believe through the same Spirit. The fact that God dwells in him makes him the image of God, for the reason that God does his work through him.
I do not see evidence for a hypostasis union in Hebrews 1:3 as it clearly seems to be speaking about the nature of the Holy Spirit which is the nature of God.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 29 2011,07:48) Quote (Baker @ April 28 2011,12:10) Keith! It's the same then the trinity!!! What kind of Scriptures to you want all the put up??? And where in the Scriptures does it say hypo-stasis?
not even the word trinity is in the Scriptures…..Irene
IreneIt is found in Heb 1:3 and I quote it above but here it is again…
Jesus is the “…radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his “being”, (hypostasis)…” Heb 1:3 NIV
It is the Greek word for “Being” the KJV renders it “person”.
I am interested in what the Forefathers believed concerning the nature of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in relation to “hypostasis”.
WJ
Keith!Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
This Scripture does not prove the trinity. That is not hypostasis. Then Jiohn 17;5 means the same.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
He had a glory with His Father, and since He now is a Spirit Being, that is what is meant by His glory. God also gave Him all Authority and power in order to put all under subjection.
1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Rev. 19 tells us that He will come as The Word of God
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Jesus has not been that King of Kings yet, and when He dies come, He will do what verse 15
Peace Irene
Quote (karmarie @ April 28 2011,17:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 29 2011,04:42) Quote (karmarie @ April 27 2011,22:36) WJ, what is wrong with questioning the validity of (a part of) what the topic is about?
If you actually read what I had posted then you will see that it is actually about the forefathers and what SCRIPTURE could be saying about it. (You call scripture spam?)
Yes to post a ton of scriptures that are not related to the topic is “SPAM”.The topic is about the “Hypostatic Union”. It is not about them being right or wrong.
There is no mention in your post of either the “Forefathers of the NT Church” or the “Hypostatic Union”.
WJ
My apologies then WJ.
Yes please report it as spam if you want to.
Thank you!I am not going to report it because I have been guilty of the same thing.
More than likely this thread will eventually be off topic like every other thread but I guess it sort of bothered me that the first post here was not related to the subject. Sorry if I seemed a little harsh.
Blessings to you!
Keith
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,04:46) Quote (karmarie @ April 28 2011,17:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 29 2011,04:42) Quote (karmarie @ April 27 2011,22:36) WJ, what is wrong with questioning the validity of (a part of) what the topic is about?
If you actually read what I had posted then you will see that it is actually about the forefathers and what SCRIPTURE could be saying about it. (You call scripture spam?)
Yes to post a ton of scriptures that are not related to the topic is “SPAM”.The topic is about the “Hypostatic Union”. It is not about them being right or wrong.
There is no mention in your post of either the “Forefathers of the NT Church” or the “Hypostatic Union”.
WJ
My apologies then WJ.
Yes please report it as spam if you want to.
Thank you!I am not going to report it because I have been guilty of the same thing.
More than likely this thread will eventually be off topic like every other thread but I guess it sort of bothered me that the first post here was not related to the subject. Sorry if I seemed a little harsh.
Blessings to you!
Keith
Thankyou for your forgiveness WJ.
I'm trying to stick to just one or two threads only so I will leave you alone here.Thanks again
Blessings to you too.Quote (Istari @ April 28 2011,17:04) Work backwards: if Jesus IS God – and he says we are to become like him – then he must mean that we too are to become GOD!
OK JADoes it mean that we are going to become God if we are made after Gods image? Because it is his image that we are being changed into you know.
So lets work backwards.
If we go all the way back to the beginnng we find that God said…
And God said, Let us make man in “OUR IMAGE”, after OUR LIKENESS: Gen 1:26
So God created man in “HIS OWN IMAGE”, in the “IMAGE OF GOD” created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 1:27
Yet the scriptures tell us that we are being made into the image of Jesus.
Major Premise = We are being changed into the image of God.
Minor Premise = We are being changed into the image of Jesus.
Conclusion = Jesus is God!
I learned that from KJ.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,08:42) Major Premise = We are being changed into the image of God. Minor Premise = We are being changed into the image of Jesus.
Conclusion = Jesus is God!
I learned that from KJ.
Keith, the fact you learned it from KJ should be enough to tell you something has to be flawed with it.You Major Premise is wrong, for scripture never says we “are being changed into the image of God”. We were made in His image right from the start.
About your thread: I don't remember God, Jesus, the prophets, or the Apostles having to use big fancy words that common folk wouldn't understand in order to teach the message of God.
In fact it was quite the opposite, right? It seems that God and Jesus both went out of their way to “dumb it down” and use simple, everyday terms and metaphors to teach.
Your guys, on the other hand, have gone out of their way to take something as simple and understandable as a father/son relationship and turn it into a freak of nature relationship, thereby being FORCED to come up with these nonsensical terms. And the worst part is that it doesn't seem they do it in an effort to explain their flawed claim that the Son of God could be the God he is the Son of, but to make themselves seem so far above the intelligence of everyday common folk that these common folk will just “accept” this nonsense because these guys sound smarter than them.
(How long will you ignore the posts I have waiting for you in the other threads?)
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2011,01:42) Quote (Istari @ April 28 2011,17:04) Work backwards: if Jesus IS God – and he says we are to become like him – then he must mean that we too are to become GOD!
OK JADoes it mean that we are going to become God if we are made after Gods image? Because it is his image that we are being changed into you know.
So lets work backwards.
If we go all the way back to the beginnng we find that God said…
And God said, Let us make man in “OUR IMAGE”, after OUR LIKENESS: Gen 1:26
So God created man in “HIS OWN IMAGE”, in the “IMAGE OF GOD” created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 1:27
Yet the scriptures tell us that we are being made into the image of Jesus.
Major Premise = We are being changed into the image of God.
Minor Premise = We are being changed into the image of Jesus.
Conclusion = Jesus is God!
I learned that from KJ.
WJ
Keith! Jesus is called God, but not that He is Jehovah God. He is not as great as Jehovah is, by Jesus own words inJhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.
Isa 42:8 I [am] the LORD Jehovah: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him.
Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Keith, I know how hard it is when you have believed in the trinity all your life, then to change. I was very involved in the Catholic Church, and to change and come out of that system was not easy….However if you want to prove all and then see by these Scriptures I gave, we did. One day we all will know the truth….Many are called but few are chosen…
notice that for Jehovah God it is LORD, and for Jesus it is Lord……
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Peace Irene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,09:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,08:42) Major Premise = We are being changed into the image of God. Minor Premise = We are being changed into the image of Jesus.
Conclusion = Jesus is God!
I learned that from KJ.
Keith, the fact you learned it from KJ should be enough to tell you something has to be flawed with it.
MikeReally? Ha Ha!
I will give you another chance to answer the question correctly.
Are we being changed into the image of God, Mike? Yes or No?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,10:42) We were made in the image of God, Keith. Scripture says so.
Thats it.So we are children of God and are not being made to be more like the Father God?
What is the image of God we were made into Mike?
WJ
Mike
Didn't you make this statement?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011,22:38) The “OUR image” would HAVE to be Jesus IMO, because mankind wasn't yet there, and no one else is said to share God's image. WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2011,10:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,10:42) We were made in the image of God, Keith. Scripture says so.
Thats it.So we are children of God and are not being made to be more like the Father God?
What is the image of God we were made into Mike?
WJ
WJthat is a good question,what is the image ?
could you answer that question?
Pierre
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