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Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 03 2009,02:59) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 02 2009,22:23) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,23:41) Constitutionalist said: Quote Now when Jesus was born [gennaō] in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Matthew 2:1 Gennaō: To be born, be born, be delivered, begat, to be begotten, of women giving birth to children. Variation of Genos: Born, kindred, offspring, stock, tribe, nation.
TO ALL:
Constitutionalist in his statement above reveals his lack of knowledge of the Greek. He thinks that the word “gennao” always has reference to simple origin and must therefore rule out the possibility of preexistence of any kind. Thus he concludes that Christ could not have preexisted His human birth.
By Con's logic all those who were “gennao” of God could not have preexisted. So when Con became born of God he began to exist.
Paul said that Isaac was “gennao” according to the Spirit. I guess this must mean that Isaac did not preexist his spiritual origin. We must conclude this because Con redacts “gennao” to simple origin in meaning. The fact is however, those who are “gennao” according to the Spirit do not begin at that time to exist. They undergo a change in their mode of existence. When Jesus was “gennao” according to the seed of David He simply underwent a change in His mode of existence.
Please note that Con has been asked to produce his Greek credentials and he remains evasive about it. It has been sufficiently shown that Con is actually a novice who does not know what he is talking about. He is not aware of the difference between Greek vocabulary and Greek exegesis.
King David called the Messiah “my Lord” which necessarily infers that David KNEW Him. This in turn infers that Jesus was preexistent. It is not too late for Con to enroll in some courses in Logic and in Greek.
thinker
King David is and was a prophet of God.
King David was a prophet of God. In Psalm 40 he was Christ's mouthpiece. Christ spoke through David which necessarily infers that He was preexistent.thinker
Hi TT,
The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.[Rev19]
The prophets struggled to know what the Spirit of Christ was teaching them.[1peter1]
The Lord now is the Spirit and the Spirit of God that filled Jesus also inspired the Prophets but they never knew the Vine.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2009,05:01) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 03 2009,02:59) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 02 2009,22:23) Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,23:41) Constitutionalist said: Quote Now when Jesus was born [gennaō] in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Matthew 2:1 Gennaō: To be born, be born, be delivered, begat, to be begotten, of women giving birth to children. Variation of Genos: Born, kindred, offspring, stock, tribe, nation.
TO ALL:
Constitutionalist in his statement above reveals his lack of knowledge of the Greek. He thinks that the word “gennao” always has reference to simple origin and must therefore rule out the possibility of preexistence of any kind. Thus he concludes that Christ could not have preexisted His human birth.
By Con's logic all those who were “gennao” of God could not have preexisted. So when Con became born of God he began to exist.
Paul said that Isaac was “gennao” according to the Spirit. I guess this must mean that Isaac did not preexist his spiritual origin. We must conclude this because Con redacts “gennao” to simple origin in meaning. The fact is however, those who are “gennao” according to the Spirit do not begin at that time to exist. They undergo a change in their mode of existence. When Jesus was “gennao” according to the seed of David He simply underwent a change in His mode of existence.
Please note that Con has been asked to produce his Greek credentials and he remains evasive about it. It has been sufficiently shown that Con is actually a novice who does not know what he is talking about. He is not aware of the difference between Greek vocabulary and Greek exegesis.
King David called the Messiah “my Lord” which necessarily infers that David KNEW Him. This in turn infers that Jesus was preexistent. It is not too late for Con to enroll in some courses in Logic and in Greek.
thinker
King David is and was a prophet of God.
King David was a prophet of God. In Psalm 40 he was Christ's mouthpiece. Christ spoke through David which necessarily infers that He was preexistent.thinker
Hi TT,
The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.[Rev19]
The prophets struggled to know what the Spirit of Christ was teaching them.[1peter1]
The Lord now is the Spirit and the Spirit of God that filled Jesus also inspired the Prophets but they never knew the Vine.
Nick,
The person who spoke in Psalm 40 said, “I come as it is written of Me.” According to Hebrews it was Jesus Himself who said this (Heb. 10:5-9). David was Christ's mouthpiece.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2009,10:06) Hi WJ,
The Son has never become the same as his Father but they are united in the Spirit of God.
Why do you want to make Jesus an idol?[1Jn5]
Hey Nick: He is the way to the father. Could I ask here, is there a difference beteween you and your words? When you speak are the words the essence of you? Then Jesus is the essence of his father. The words of God. Is there separation between the father and his words? I think not. If no separation then ONE. God is not only three aspects existence but God is billions and billions of aspects of himself. I wouldn't fret over the word “trinity”. Thats only three aspects!! Bless you sir, TKQuote (Tim Kraft @ Dec. 03 2009,06:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2009,10:06) Hi WJ,
The Son has never become the same as his Father but they are united in the Spirit of God.
Why do you want to make Jesus an idol?[1Jn5]
Hey Nick: He is the way to the father. Could I ask here, is there a difference beteween you and your words? When you speak are the words the essence of you? Then Jesus is the essence of his father. The words of God. Is there separation between the father and his words? I think not. If no separation then ONE. God is not only three aspects existence but God is billions and billions of aspects of himself. I wouldn't fret over the word “trinity”. Thats only three aspects!! Bless you sir, TK
TK,
Good post bro!thinker
Nick said:
Quote Hi WJ,
The Son has never become the same as his Father but they are united in the Spirit of God.
Why do you want to make Jesus an idol?[1Jn5]Nick,
How is it you think that 1 John 5 supports your view?
In that chapter John said that he was writing in order that they might believe in the Son of God and have confidence in Him. Isn't it idolatry to put your confidence in a mere man?
thinker
Quote (Gene @ Nov. 10 2009,11:53) CT………..Thinker likes to try to play head trps on people by claiming to be a Greek scholar of some kind, but to Me it is simple, we Just have to believe what Jesus said ” FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. that is good enough for me and not to mention GOD the FATHER said “YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD'S BESIDES ME”. If they can't believe those (SIMPLE) straight forward scriptures then what hope is there for them. All their gandy dancing has never overcome those word to me and other here as well. peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
The FATHER is called likewise, the “true GOD,” in opposition to idols; for when CHRIST says all power was given to him, that he might give eternal life to as many as were given to him, those that were given to him were among the Gentiles as well as the Jews; he here respects them both. The Gentiles worshipped many gods, the Jews worshipped one GOD, but rejected CHRIST as Mediator. Now the knowledge of both is necessary to salvation. In the first clause he respects the multiplicity of heathen gods, in the other the Jewish contempt of the Mediator. So, then, the expression excludes only the heathen idols. In 1 Thess. 1: 9: “How you turned to God from idols, to serve the living and true God.” God is called the true God in opposition to idols.http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_we….rt8.htm
TO ALL:
Gene errs in thinking that Christ was contrasting God with Himself.
thinker
Gene said:
Quote CT………..Thinker likes to try to play head trps on people by claiming to be a Greek scholar of some kind,
Gene,
I am not a scholar by any stretch of the imagination. But I am certainly no novice like Constitutionalist. I get irked by people like Con who try to pull one over people. He is not learned in the Greek and he should stop with the facade.thinker
WorshippingJesus said to Kathi:
Quote No man under Hebrew law could demand the life of a man for himself. That would be Idolatry. This kind of devotion belongs to God alone and it is this kind of devotion that we give to our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ!
Exactly! Paul said, “for me to live IS CHRIST.” By Hebrew law Paul should have been stoned for saying that.
On the other hand, Gene might say that Paul meant, “For me to live is an anointed rock.”
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 02 2009,03:06) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2009,21:24) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 01 2009,19:41) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2009,18:43) Hi Keith,
Does Jesus teach us that He is the ultimate prize or the Father and the Son are the ultimate prize?Kathi
KathiI thought you would have known the answer to this?
Howbeit what things were gain to me, these have “I COUNTED LOSS FOR CHRIST”. Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the Excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: “FOR WHOM I SUFFERED THE LOSS OF ALL THINGS”, and do count them but refuse, “THAT I MAY GAIN (KJV WIN) CHRIST“, Phil 3:7, 8
Jesus is our Bridegroom; we are the bride being prepared for him. Our ultimate goal is to know him intimately like the Bride knows her husband and the husband knows his bride.
What are you looking for? Golden streets? A Mansion in the sky? Harps and wings? Those are the things the carnal man seeks after. But for those who look for their beloved, he alone is their desire!
No, it is the final union of the Bride with her Bridgroom, Jesus, when we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. That was the Apostles goal and that is every true believers goal.
Jesus demanded this kind of devotion of his followers…
““Whosoever will come after me“, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; “BUT WHOSOEVER SHALL LOSE HIS LIFE FOR **MY SAKE**” and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Mark 8:34, 35
No man under Hebrew law could demand the life of a man for himself. That would be Idolatry.
This kind of devotion belongs to God alone and it is this kind of devotion that we give to our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ!
Blessing WJ
Keith,
Yes, Jesus is the prize but only part of the prize. Without Jesus we do not have a way to our ultimate destiny. We are told by Jesus that He is the way, the truth and the life but the way to who? He is not the destination, He is the way to the destination. Remember, the rest of the verse is…”no man comes to the Father but through Me.”Jesus came to return us to the Father.
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
NASUKathi
KathiNo Jesus is the whole prize for in him dwells all the fulness of Deity! Col 1:19, Col 2:9
Don't forget the entire context of John 14:6.
Jesus said…
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. “Trust in God; trust also in me“. John 14:1
Imagine that, Jesus equates trusting him to being equal to Trusting God!!! I wonder Why?
Then Jesus says…
In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. “I am going there to prepare a place for you “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and “TAKE YOU TO BE WITH ME THAT YOU ALSO MAY BE WHERE I AM. John 14:2, 3
So you see Kathi, our destination is to be with Jesus where he is, (with the Father of course) this is why he is coming for his Bride without spot or wrinkle, those who have made themselves ready for their Bridegroom and have oil in their lamps!
Do you think you can have the Father without Jesus? Since the days of his flesh the Father has given everything to him! You cannot know the Father unless Jesus reveals him! And no man can know who Jesus is unless the Father reveals him! HMMM! I wonder why?
If you have Jesus, you have the Father, or God! They are “One” Kathi!
You can only serve one Master with the devotion that God requires and that is the devotion that we are to give to Jesus!
He is the “Way, the Truth, and the Life” meaning he is our source of life for he is the life!
“**Looking unto Jesus** THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH“; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2
Why do we find so many statements like this about looking or coming to Jesus and not the Father?
Kathi, the Apostles heart was toward Jesus for without him they had nothing!
Do a word search of the terms “Father”, “Lord” “God” and “Jesus” and “Christ” and add them up and you will be amazed that the NT scriptures are mainly about Jesus.
For instance, several times Jesus said “Come unto me”?
Jesus said…
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and “THEY ARE THEY WHICH TESTIFY OF ME” And “YE WILL NOT COME TO ME“, that ye might have life. . John 5:39, 40
“Come to Jesus for life”!
Imagine that, the Bible is a biography of God and Jesus takes claim to it! Either this is Blasphemy or Heresy and Jesus is a lunatic or Jesus is the God of the Old and New Testament!
Jesus again claims he is the source of life and crys out to all men to “come to him”.
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, “If any man thirst, LET HIM COME UNTO ME, AND DRINK. John 7:37
Since all things were made by him and for him and all things are his, then he is the entire prize, for all the fulness of deity resides in him.
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, Titus 2:13
Who are you looking for and preparing for Kathi? The Father or the Bridegroom?
Who do we see every knee and every tongue confessing as Lord to the Glory of God the Father? Who do we see casting their crowns before and falling on their faces to? Who do we see them crying out “thou only art worthy to recieve blessing and honour and Glory and power” to?
His name is Jesus, the name above ALL NAMES both in heaven and in earth and under the earth!
Again, such devotion belongs to God alone!
WJ
Keith,You said:
Quote So you see Kathi, our destination is to be with Jesus where he is, (with the Father of course) this is why he is coming for his Bride without spot or wrinkle, those who have made themselves ready for their Bridegroom and have oil in their lamps! Like I said, Jesus is part of the prize but not the whole prize..
.His Father with the Son is our ultimate prize. Not just the Son. You seem to be saying that Jesus is the whole prize by this statement:Quote No Jesus is the whole prize for in him dwells all the fulness of Deity! Col 1:19, Col 2:9 And then yet, you include the Father as part of the prize and you say that they are one. Well, I agree that they are one but I don't agree that they are one “being” as you have said in the past. We will be one as they are but we will not be one being and they are not one being. IMO
Let me give you an example of how a father and son are not the same being yet if you have one, you have the other.
If the only thing you knew about me was that I had a father-in-law, then you could assume that I had a husband…right?
Similarly, if the only thing you knew about me was that I had a husband, then you could assume that I had a father-in-law and a mother-in-law…right?
Do you see how when you are married you get more than a spouse…you get the spouse's whole family automatically and that certainly does not mean that the spouse is their whole family.
So, also, if I have a brother (Jesus) I will also have the same father as my brother. If I didn't accept Jesus as my brother but only as a friend then I wouldn't have His Father as my father.
I am trying to make this simple. Where there is a son, there is also a father and a mother in the earthly sense. When I know that Jesus is the Son of God, I also accept that God is His Father and that He is the same nature as His Father because He is a true son.
I hear people sing in church a song that says “Jesus, you are all I need.” When I hear that I am wondering to myself if that is an incomplete thought or what because I know that we need the Father AND the Son, not just the Son.
Kathi
Quote (Paladin @ Dec. 02 2009,09:23) When the logos became flesh, GOD DID NOT. The terms theos and logos are NOT convertible. DO YOU SEE IT NOW?
Yes I see what your purpose is, to say John was an idiot for saying “God was the Word”. You just said that “the word which was God did not become flesh”!What about verses 2 and 3?
The conundrum is with you, for now you either except “Sabellianism” which obviously is not John’s intention, or you say that John’s intention is “God was a literal spoken word”! Or you accept the scriptural view that Jesus the Word is True God with the Father!
John didn't have to use the word “Theos” if his intention was to say his word was divine or if his intended meaning was a spoken word. But he did and then proceeds to tell us who the word was!
You should stick to the basics and quit trying to correct a world renowned Greek Grammarian! You once said something like “you would rather burn at the stake” than accept AT Robertson’s explanation of a particular Greek sentence!
You have already proved your disdain for him, and been corrected before, so why should we believe you?
You are an imposter and an impersonator of a Greek scholar who has no credentials!
Most credentialed Greek Grammarians are “Trinitarians”, I wonder why? Could it be that they see the truth? So live with it!
Click here and get a True exegesis of John 1:1!
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2009,08:40) Hi TT,
You started this thread as 'speaking to a novice'.
Is that how you view all others?
Yeah Nick. For the most part the anti-trinitarians here are novices. I did not think this when I first came here but I think it now. Some anti-trinitarians here are damned but all are novices.You asked and I told you. Those who go so far as to say that Jesus is not the Savior are surely damned.
thinker
WorshippingJesus said to Paladin:
Quote What about verses 2 and 3?
Keith,
Paladin has been asked this before. He will continue with his white out approach to John's prologue. We should send him a case of white out. He is probably running low about now.thinker
WorshippingJesus said to Paladin
Quote You are an imposter and an impersonator of a Greek scholar who has no credentials!
Boom! Tell it like it is! I add Constitutionalist to the imposter and impersonater list.thinker
Worshippingjesus said to Paladin:
Quote You are an imposter and an impersonator of a Greek scholar who has no credentials!
Paladin wants us to believe that Robertson goes against textbook Greek and denies that there is a past tense verb in the Greek. This alone should cause others here to see that Paladin is totally off the wall.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 03 2009,09:41) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2009,08:40) Hi TT,
You started this thread as 'speaking to a novice'.
Is that how you view all others?
Yeah Nick. For the most part the anti-trinitarians here are novices. I did not think this when I first came here but I think it now. Some anti-trinitarians here are damned but all are novices.You asked and I told you. Those who go so far as to say that Jesus is not the Savior are surely damned.
thinker
Hi TT,
Is it wise to become so educated if you start teaching as truth what is not written?WJ………Here is a question for you, If Jesus was GOD then why did he need to be a CHRISTOS the seeing he himself was GOD so why be anointed with GOD'S Spirit then. Jesus plainly said GOD was SPIRIT. And Jesus a man Had the Anointing on HIm, so why would that be if he were himself GOD.
And why would John not just say Jesus instead of Logos if He meant Jesus?. The doctrine of the Trinity and preexistence are so full of holes it amazes me you and you co-heart thinker , can't see through the LIE.
IMO
peace and love…………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Dec. 02 2009,23:08) WJ………Here is a question for you, If Jesus was GOD then why did he need to be a CHRISTOS the seeing he himself was GOD so why be anointed with GOD'S Spirit then. Jesus plainly said GOD was SPIRIT. And Jesus a man Had the Anointing on HIm, so why would that be if he were himself GOD. And why would John not just say Jesus instead of Logos if He meant Jesus?. The doctrine of the Trinity and preexistence are so full of holes it amazes me you and you co-heart thinker , can't see through the LIE.
IMO
peace and love…………….gene
GeneJesus had to empty himself and come under the law to fulfill all righteousness and become the firstfruits of them that are saved! That included his baptism and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove!
But the question you should be asking yourself is “How did Jesus have the Spirit without measure?”
Would God give all of himself to a mere man of flesh?
As far as John 1:1, John is telling a story and starts with Jesus “before” he had the name Jesus and his identity as a man. He was with the Father as the Word and that Word which was God with the Father was the agent of creation in verses 2, 3 and then he came in the flesh in verse 14 and was given the name Jesus and was found in fashion as a man yet having the Glory of the Father, God. Phil 2:6-8 John 1:18 NIV
If John would have used Jesus name in John 1:1 then it could be construed that Jesus was a man of flesh and blood in the beginning with the Father, and then was reincarnated in Mary!
Instead John used the term Word, I believe from Revelations 19:13 since the Gospel was written after the book of Revelation.
WJ
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