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Hi m42,
Even those who obviously manifested the Spirit of God when they were with Cornelius and heard the inspired words of Peter in Acts 10 still were required by God to submit to water baptism. Paul went further in Acts 19 and enquired whether those who claimed to follow Christ were truly reborn from above by the evidence of the work of the Spirit in them and then acted to ensure their salvation. Was it all unnecessary, and even those in Athens who heard the message of Paul we should assume to be saved? Should we do less? Is salvation so trivial in importance that we just say we cannot know ?Hi m42,
I may have misunderstood you but:
Do you accept that Jesus demands we all repent and be reborn from above?
Should we all listen to Peter at pentecost?
Or should we just align ourselves as best we can in our own strength with the bible and copy Jesus and that is enough?
Should we not KNOW we have the Spirit as the downpayment on our salvation?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 04 2007,22:46) Hi m42,
I may have misunderstood you but:
Do you accept that Jesus demands we all repent and be reborn from above?
Should we all listen to Peter at pentecost?
Or should we just align ourselves as best we can in our own strength with the bible and copy Jesus and that is enough?
Should we not KNOW we have the Spirit as the downpayment on our salvation?
Absolutely we must repent of sin. One of the points I was trying to make is that only God can ascertain whether we have truely repented or just gone thru motions to avoid punishments.As I mentioned in my post, I said we must be regenerated from above.
I never once mentioned doing things in our own strength. this is the second time you have mentioned that concerning my posts. It is getting a little boring. I said work with our saviour to overcome our weaknesses. Does that sound like our own strength? Get over it!!!!!
Yes we must know we have the Spirit for ourselves. whether we can ascertain others having the spirit is the real question.
Hi M42,
Paul made sure he knew. He avoided building on the foundations of others if possible. He knew by the gifts they showed, by what people expressed from their mouths, by whether his messages were received with joy, and by his own gift of discerning of spirits.Peter too knew Simon Magus had false motives by the Spirit and that the couple in Acts 5 had lied by the same Spirit.
We too need to know or we would never open our mouths and preach Christ. Now in particular when so many false gospels and false Christs have been preached and accepted, and when the orthodox church has become an idolatrous insult to God, we really need to know what plants are growing in God's field.
Hi m42,
Repentance and baptism as shown in Acts is an event that is a plea for forgiveness from God. After that we still need to wash our feet from the dust of the streets daily but without the calling on the name of Jesus and the washing of the body, it does not suffice according to scripture.Hi m42,
The process of regeneration from above, the transformation of our minds and hearts unto Christ cannot begin of itself nor is it of the will of man. Christ must be planted in us and watered for the seed of the Spirit to grow and that seed of faith is not of man.Jn 1
“12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. “
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 05 2007,01:13) Hi m42,
The process of regeneration from above, the transformation of our minds and hearts unto Christ cannot begin of itself nor is it of the will of man. Christ must be planted in us and watered for the seed of the Spirit to grow and that seed of faith is not of man.Jn 1
“12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. “
Sorry, it sounds like Calvinism. I am not even going to argue that silliness!Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 04 2007,22:39) Hi m42,
Even those who obviously manifested the Spirit of God when they were with Cornelius and heard the inspired words of Peter in Acts 10 still were required by God to submit to water baptism. Paul went further in Acts 19 and enquired whether those who claimed to follow Christ were truly reborn from above by the evidence of the work of the Spirit in them and then acted to ensure their salvation. Was it all unnecessary, and even those in Athens who heard the message of Paul we should assume to be saved? Should we do less? Is salvation so trivial in importance that we just say we cannot know ?
You say —
Even those who obviously manifested the Spirit of God when they were with Cornelius and heard the inspired words of Peter in Acts 10 still were required by God to submit to water baptism.response —
Is water baptism important? Certainly! Is it necessary to be saved? No!
This concept comes from a “works” mentality just like reciting Hail Marys.
It’s roots come from a missunderstanding of baptism. True baptism is not about getting dunked in water. First, baptism is misstranslated. It should have been translated “immersion”. True baptism is about being immersed in the Holy breath of God and having that working of the wind of God moving in, thru, and around you.
The water is an outward type of an inward work. Does it seem reasonable that God would deny salvation to those who have achieved the inward work without the outward type?Now to your scriptures.
Acts 10 —
1Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,
2a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.
(This is a man who loves God)3About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!”
4And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.
(This is not a heathen man. This is a man who has earnestly sought God. So much so in fact that God excepted his prayers and alms. Would God accept prayers and alms from an unsaved person?)22They said, “Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you.”
(Cornelius is again called a righteous and God-fearing man. Can the unsaved be called righteous?)44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
(Can the Holy Spirit fall on the unsaved?)45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
47″Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”
(“Just as we did?” Were the disciples unsaved when they recieved the Holy Spirit?”)48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
(They were saved and filled with the Holy breath before they were baptised! Notice that in Holy Spirit scriptures the words “filled”, “fell upon” and “baptised” are used interchangably. All indicating an immersion in the holy breath of God)You say —
Paul went further in Acts 19 and enquired whwther those who claimed to follow Christ were truly reborn from above by the evidence of the work of the Spirit in them and then acted to ensure their salvation. Was it all unnecessary, and even those in Athens who heard the message of Paul we should assume to be saved? Should we do less? Is salvation so trivial in importance that we just say we cannot know ?Response —
You have added to this scripture to prove your point. WRONG!!!1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
(It does not say some who claimed to be disciples. God calls them disciples!)2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
(They already believed and yet had not recieved the Holy Spirit. Further they were not yet baptised and yet called disciples by God)3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John's baptism.”
4Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
(They were immersed in John’s immersion for repentence, but yet could not know of Jesus other then the promise of Jesus, Yet God called them disciples.)5When they heard this, they were baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Remember the Hebrews looked at the term “name” differently then we do. Name equals character traits. They were immersed in the character of Jesus. How? By being immersed in the Holy breath of Christ and God. Jesus breathed on the disciples and said recieve the Holy breath)6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
(Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. These disciples of John believed, by faith, in Jesus, their Messiah without ever knowing any details about him. They were baptised into the promise of Christ’s work of salvation at Calvery. This made them disciples. Followers of Christ.
Paul confirmed that Jesus was the one who John had preached about. When they heard the of the fullfillment of the of the promise which they already believed, they were immersed into the character of Jesus.
AFTER THIS — Paul prayed for them to recieve the Holy breath. They did not have it till then.
1. They believed in the promise of the coming Christ.
2. They repented and were immersed in repentence thru John.
3. At this point God calls them disciples, followers.
4. Paul tells them of the fullfillment of the promise they heard and believed thru John.
5. After hearing of the fullfillment of the promise, they are immersed in the character of Jesus. They could not be immersed in the character of Christ, previously, because they did not know of Christ other then the promise.
6. They then a prayed for to recieve the Holy breath. They did not recieve it when they believed the promise, wnen they believed in Jesus, or when they were baptised.Nick,
This thread is not that entertaining for me. Since I do not think these forums have any value outside of entertainment, when they lose that value to a person what's the point continuing.
Therefore, I am done with this thread.Hi m42,
“Disciple” is not a term that necessarily defines a christian.
The pharisees had disciples too.
Matt 22
15Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.16And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men”
Perhaps they were disciples of John's?
Mark 2:18
And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?3101
Transliteration:
mathetes {math-ay-tes'}
Word Origin:
from 3129
TDNT:
4:415,552
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
Usage in the KJV:
disciple 268, vr disciple 1Total: 269
Definition:
a learner, pupil, discipleHi m42,
You say
“5When they heard this, they were baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Remember the Hebrews looked at the term “name” differently then we do. Name equals character traits. They were immersed in the character of Jesus. How? By being immersed in the Holy breath of Christ and God. Jesus breathed on the disciples and said recieve the Holy breath)”That is an interesting interpretation of baptism-immersed in the character traits-is this a visible happening?.
Can we use it wherever baptism occurs in the bible or how can we tell it is ok to translate it this way??Hi m42,
You say
“(Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. These disciples of John believed, by faith, in Jesus, their Messiah without ever knowing any details about him. They were baptised into the promise of Christ’s work of salvation at Calvery. This made them disciples. Followers of Christ.
Paul confirmed that Jesus was the one who John had preached about. When they heard the of the fullfillment of the of the promise which they already believed, they were immersed into the character of Jesus.”You read rather a lot into this verse that is not clearly apparent.
Baptism is water baptism unless the God of peace tells us it means otherwise.
So when we understand stuff that makes us born again?
I see, or do I?
No.Quote (music4two @ Feb. 05 2007,01:25) Nick,
This thread is not that entertaining for me. Since I do not think these forums have any value outside of entertainment, when they lose that value to a person what's the point continuing.
Therefore, I am done with this thread.
Hi m42,
Most who come here with an open mind are interested in more than just being entertained. That is how the Athenians received the message.ACTS 17
” 18Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.19And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 05 2007,03:20) Baptism is water baptism unless the God of peace tells us it means otherwise.
How do you know this?Hi Is 1.18,
Imagine if we had no idea which baptism was being referred to.
Confusion reigns.
Our God is not a God of confusion but of peaceSo every time the word baptism is mentioned in the NT it refers to water emmersion, unless the context dictates otherwise?
How do you know?
Hi Is 1.18,
Do you know the God of peace?
Would you like to pose some scriptural possibilities?
Matthew 3:6
And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins
Matthew 3:13
Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him
Mark 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 1:9
And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Luke 3:7
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Luke 3:12
Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
Luke 3:21
Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Luke 7:30
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
John 3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.Starting with these can we guess which they are or choose according to doctrinal base?
How about this one:
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.Is this water baptism?
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