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What does Deuteronomy 6:4 say in Biblical Hebrew.
I literally took at my hebrew bible and started to translate, im going to give you the transliteration form, which is:
~Shema yisrael Adonai Eloheynu echad~
“Hear o Isreal Lord, Our God, Lord, (*is) One.”
*We cannot translate is into english from Hebrew. it has to be added.Shema- is self explanatory.
o- is after shema represnted in a dot above the last letter.
Yisrael- also self explanatory
Explanations of Adonai.
The accent marks below the certain Constanant letters shows me that the Writer is actually using the name Adonai.Eloheynu- Note: how the words starts out just like elohim, but the last letters and the two dots under present a suffix that shows its saying a cpl form, which shows that it means our. “Our God”
Adonai- Again, i already explained it.
Echad This is not a number. a number in hebrew is represent by letters that start from greatest to least. Echad that means one, does not mean a number. It could be ether unity, as in one being, or the use of the word can show diversity becomeing one.
This is what the literaly hebrew says. If there is any debate on this, use referense becaues i havent found anyone else that disagrees with my above statements. Why becasue after translating, and actually written in paper, i made sure the words were the same that i have written down, and i cross referenced and look up what other hebrew readers thought as well. i havent found a disagreement. Than again you never know.
Greek for Kurios, In Jude 1:4
From what i read i got Kurion,So i can second that. I dont know why Kurios is related to Adonai. but its all good.
Im adding this to add more to the topic. I hope it helps!
(If you find other information to disput this let me know)
Hi All.
I took a great deal of my time, to study many of your comments. And i know its for JA, but i would also like to intervene if you dont mind. But i hope it adds to the thread.
I will start by responding to the most intresting points person by person so look for your name. And i will qoute most of what you said, but its alot, so i might trim it. “…” represents trimming.Just Asking you said:
Quote Gene, TT, WJ,
What is the meaning of the Word “Massah”? Is it not “To Test” –I second that. Agreed.
Quote ]James 1:13 is his gain from doing so ….- Nothing… True. I second that God does not tempt. but to add, he permisses it. He lets it happen.
Quote With what can anyone TEMPT God…. God requires pure free-willed [Free-Willed; …] worship.
I agree to part of it. But it depends on the definition of Tempt. Because the very thing that God wants his our souls. because he loves us that much. So to say Prove that you are God so that we may believe. is tempting in way. They almost go hand and hand. And it depends on the definition of the word Tempting. I got a definition stating that the word tempting means. 1.”The act of Tempting, or the state of being tempted. 2.That which tempts.”
It goes back to the massah point. If tempting today means the act or the state of being tempted to prove something, can also connect to the hebrew word Massah.Quote Who is it that was Tempted at Massah:… when you tempt someone you are OFFERING something that is not normally available to them, to make a gain by unnatural means.
The Gain would be our souls. our belief. If thats valid for you I dont know. thats just the way i see it. Because psychological. the people doubted God, gossipers, backbiters, haters, and didnt really believe. They wanted proof.
Its like someone walking up to me saying that they are Christian, the bible says that you shall know them for their fruits. but if i have any doubt, i would ask him to prove it to me, i have just tempted the guy to prove to me, that he is a Christian for my acceptance of him. which is wrong and i would never do that. Again, thats just a alternative view. what do you think?Quote 1.Jesus was “Tempted” by Satan…
2.Satan to adam: ADAM was TEMPTED to gain knowledge of Good and Evil – That is tempted….
Im going to answer this with a key observation that i learned about. because they were both tempted in the same way. Note: it was eve tempted first than adam. just to be safe.
My source is in spanish. so im translating this.
“First Adam: Genesis: A)Desire of Flesh-The Tree look good to eat. B)Desire of the eyes-Fruit looked good to his eyes/sight. C) Selfsih Glory of life- Consume to have be wise.
Second Adam, Christ (Lc. 4:1-13) A)Desire of Flesh-If you are the Son of God, command this stone to convert into flesh. B) Desire of the eyes-The devil took him into a high mountain where all the kingdoms were…and i will give you all of this and the glory of all of them. c) the Selfish glory of life- if you are the son of God, jump down because it is written that your angels would be sent close to you and guard you…”
Note: that the biblical referense is translated from a breif mention from spanish to English. so it will not look exactly the same, but understand the gist of it.
The point is that they were both tempted the same way. James 1:13 explains the temptation. that starts with lust in our minds, that turns into the very action of sin.
To connect the analysis of Adam and Jesus and what temptation is leads to disobiedence and sin when falling into temptation. The Jews wanted to tempt God by making him prove himself yet they never believed. The devil tempt Jesus by also trying to make him prove himself. the Devil many times said “if you are the son of God” Do this.
Jesus responded, “it is written you shall not tempt the Lord Thy God” (Lc 4:12) This point that Jesus said this should be added to the Thread KJQuote Did not God himself say in Exodus 23:20: for My name is in Him. The angel of Jehovah. i have seen this mentioned many times. One he always talks for himself and not for God. Bc usually angels talk like, The lord you God said this and that, where The Angel of the Lord usually says I will make thee a great nation. and stuff like that. Is it Jesus…Well This individual angel talks as if He is God. I could not say that this angel is Jesus. but i could say that He puts himself equal to God in such a way he even gives commands. This is from what i see. This angel blesses and so on and so forth. I believe there is a refernse of Israel wrestiling to with an angel, and that he named the place, that he saw God and did not die.
What do you think about that?
Oh and the high Preist Melchidek in the OT i would believe he is Jesus. What do you think?Hi Marty You said,
But Ephesians 4 states:
Intresting …. The bible also says that Gods eyes are too pure to see sin. Habakkuk 1:13 “Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil” Yet after metioning the oneness of three other things, How can the Father who is above all, can be through all and in all, if he is too pure to be around sin?Hi Gene,
You have burried yourself in such a sense.Quote Tempting GOD is Tempting the Christos (SPIRIT) of GOD no matter who (IT) is in.
Im just going to extend to the second part since KJ already started with the first. Christos is a greek term, there is only one messiah that the jewish believe. If your going to connect OT with NT with the NT term for messiah, you couldnt. Bc basically your arguement is that there is alot of lords, and christos, such as moses, who is not the messiah, also not elders, and neither were the angels. A specfic anoited one was for a perfect sinless being, otherwords a perfect man. The Second Adam, may i present you to Jesus Christ. The Christ, the Messiah, The King of the Jews.Hey Mike!!!
Yours and JA are one some of my favorite to read along with WJ, KJ, and David. I always look forward to ya's post. its clear to understand even though i may disagree.Quote You are wrong, Jack. The word LORD in any OT is put in place of YHWH, In my last post about “Adonai” I actually agreed with you at first until i saw it myself. I saw that there is a small differense in the hebrew accents that sh
ows its Adonai rather than Jehovah. even thought its translated like that often, the correct term would be Adonai more than Jehovah. Literally hebrews can write Adonai seperate and distinctivly but there are cases where they write Jehovah and add accent marks to represent Adonai for emphasis. Idk if you disagree or not. Im actually looking at it right now. its clearly there.
I also disagree with the “Jehovah Jr.” aspect. I didnt think we were actualy going to get into this angel of the Lord Topic.
I think the problem how people view the Trinity, is because they take the literal role to distinctivly. For example: We ourselves take roles in life when the circumstance arises. I am a Son of my Father and Mother, and im also a Brother to my Sister, a Friend, mentor, to others, and in the future i will also be a Father when i have my first Child.
Luke 14:26
[Luke 14:33; Matt 10:37; Deut 33:9 ] “If anyone comes to me and [Luke 16:13 ] does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, [John 12:25; Acts 20:24; Rev 12:11] yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
(The extra verses came along with the online scripture.)
We all take roles in life. God wants to be our everything, The very center of our lives. In the OT he provides several names for God, as YHWh, Jehovah, Adonai, Jehovah-rafa,yishi and etc. Yet these are all roles of God. He is our everything, the God of everything. I forget where i found this scripture, but i will find it. ill mention it to you again bc i will use it in several posts.
Im skipping to your last repsonse bc i spent 4 hours studying this. and one hour looking for ONE VERSE I CANT FIND!!! its a verse anti-trins should use against Trins. but i dont remember where its at!! i though it was in revelations… oh well.. im to sleepy. anyways co-equal persons. or just different roles? would that make more sense, or more difficult? what do you think?Hey David:
Please look to the translation i made. I saw a major differense, i know that you are more studious that i am, because i think our two explanations disagree. or idk you tell me. And im looking for this verse for your other post as well. SOMEONE already mentioend it, i been spending hours searching for it. It says something like, the Son giving back the glory to the father, and he will be the God of all in all. I thuoght this was in revelations. but i cant seem to find it. im going crazy…its something like that. maybe im wrong.
Finally wow… im done.! IM FREE TO SLEEP!!!
Good night ya! =)SF………..Messiah means (ANOINTED) ONE, ALSO. Christos is Greek for the Same thing the anointed on and the anointing is the Christo's. When we say Jesus the Christ , we are saying Jesus the Anointed . Check it out.
peace and love………………….gene
David said:
Quote Frankly, who cares what the later versions of the Septuagint did? Don't we care with what was originally written?
We know God's name originally occurred in the Hebrew scriptures almost 7000 times. Who cares if a Bible translation today removes it and replaces it with “lord”? What proof is that?
David,Do you care that the inspired apostles consistently subsituted the word “kurios” in place of God's original Hebrew name? In Matthew 3:3 the apostle quoted Isaiah 40:3 and used the name “kurios” in place “Jehovah.”
3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, (kurios) make his paths straight.
David:
Quote Please read a book and then stop saying things like this. The original Deut 6:4 most certainly did not say that. Or even ask other trinitarians.
The original Isaiah 40:3 most certainly did not say “kurios”. Yet the apostle Matthew substitutes the name “Jehovah” with “kurios”. Therefore, the name “Jehovah” could mean “Lord”.Please show any Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 6:4 that does not use “kurios” in place of “Jehovah”.
Did Matthew corrupt the name of God? If so,then produce a Greek text which does not use the name “kurios” in Matthew 3:3. Did ALL the apostles corrupt God's personal name? If yes, then produce a Greek text which uses the personal name of God for the personal name of God is not found in any of the Greek texts we have. Yet you erroneously claim that translations today remove it and replace it.
You need an original Greek text to substantiate your claim.
And please explain verse Deuteronomy 6:16 with 1 Cornthians 10:9. In verse 16 they were commanded not to tempt Jehovah as they tempted Him in Massah.
Quote 16Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. Paul said that it was Christ who guided them and whom they tempted,
Quote 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that guided them: and that Rock was Christ. 5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Kangaroo Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 24 2010,11:47) David said: Quote Frankly, who cares what the later versions of the Septuagint did? Don't we care with what was originally written?
We know God's name originally occurred in the Hebrew scriptures almost 7000 times. Who cares if a Bible translation today removes it and replaces it with “lord”? What proof is that?
David,Do you care that the inspired apostles consistently subsituted the word “kurios” in place of God's original Hebrew name? In Matthew 3:3 the apostle quoted Isaiah 40:3 and used the name “kurios” in place “Jehovah.”
3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, (kurios) make his paths straight.
David:
Quote Please read a book and then stop saying things like this. The original Deut 6:4 most certainly did not say that. Or even ask other trinitarians.
The original Isaiah 40:3 most certainly did not say “kurios”. Yet the apostle Matthew substitutes the name “Jehovah” with “kurios”. Therefore, the name “Jehovah” could mean “Lord”.Please show any Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 6:4 that does not use “kurios” in place of “Jehovah”.
Did Matthew corrupt the name of God? If so,then produce a Greek text which does not use the name “kurios” in Matthew 3:3. Did ALL the apostles corrupt God's personal name? If yes, then produce a Greek text which uses the personal name of God for the personal name of God is not found in any of the Greek texts we have. Yet you erroneously claim that translations today remove it and replace it.
You need an original Greek text to substantiate your claim.
And please explain verse Deuteronomy 6:16 with 1 Cornthians 10:9. In verse 16 they were commanded not to tempt Jehovah as they tempted Him in Massah.
Quote 16Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. Paul said that it was Christ who guided them and whom they tempted,
Quote 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that guided them: and that Rock was Christ. 5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Kangaroo Jack
Hi JackGreat points that the ATs cannot refute unless they wrest the scriptures!
WJ
SF,
Good post – I think your tiredness showed in your post though. I could feel it even without you saying so.
One thing: – We don't need a 'special' verse, a pebble, to throw at Trinitarians – The WHOLE of Scriptures is a MASSIVE BOULDER and they have been rolled over with many times aleady.
It is only because they have no backbone why they have not been completely crushed – and good thing too – Because God did not say that WE should crush them – That is Jesus' job.
We should be trying to to get them to come round to the ONLY TRUE GOD's way of thinking – Understand, Believe and Hold to, Jesus' dissertation on his Father – and be saved:
“For there is more glory in Heaven over one man that repents than in all those who have no need for repentence”
“For he who saves the life of another by bringing that one to God covers over a multitude of his own sins”Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 25 2010,04:34) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 24 2010,11:47) David said: Quote Frankly, who cares what the later versions of the Septuagint did? Don't we care with what was originally written?
We know God's name originally occurred in the Hebrew scriptures almost 7000 times. Who cares if a Bible translation today removes it and replaces it with “lord”? What proof is that?
David,Do you care that the inspired apostles consistently subsituted the word “kurios” in place of God's original Hebrew name? In Matthew 3:3 the apostle quoted Isaiah 40:3 and used the name “kurios” in place “Jehovah.”
3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, (kurios) make his paths straight.
David:
Quote Please read a book and then stop saying things like this. The original Deut 6:4 most certainly did not say that. Or even ask other trinitarians.
The original Isaiah 40:3 most certainly did not say “kurios”. Yet the apostle Matthew substitutes the name “Jehovah” with “kurios”. Therefore, the name “Jehovah” could mean “Lord”.Please show any Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 6:4 that does not use “kurios” in place of “Jehovah”.
Did Matthew corrupt the name of God? If so,then produce a Greek text which does not use the name “kurios” in Matthew 3:3. Did ALL the apostles corrupt God's personal name? If yes, then produce a Greek text which uses the personal name of God for the personal name of God is not found in any of the Greek texts we have. Yet you erroneously claim that translations today remove it and replace it.
You need an original Greek text to substantiate your claim.
And please explain verse Deuteronomy 6:16 with 1 Cornthians 10:9. In verse 16 they were commanded not to tempt Jehovah as they tempted Him in Massah.
Quote 16Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. Paul said that it was Christ who guided them and whom they tempted,
Quote 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that guided them: and that Rock was Christ. 5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Kangaroo Jack
Hi JackGreat points that the ATs cannot refute unless they wrest the scriptures!
WJ
Keith,They do wrest the scriptures. They deny that the reading “kurios” for Jehovah is legit. The NWT removes “kurios” and places “Jehovah” in its stead.
You're giving David a good licking too.
Kangaroo Jack
Hi KJ,
I se you are in your element – So David has finally given you a chance to bludy someones nose.
Do me a favour since you are hopping (or hoping) for joy over David – Please stop posting those narsties – I thought you change your name – or for what reason did you change your name?
By the way, I'm not intervening in your 'glory' or whatever you feel you have achieved so don't attack me on what others have written.
One more question: Why do you always appeal to WJ when you have something to say that you feel either indignant or righteous about?
Don't you see that it makes you seem like you are, well, asking for support – lacking confidence in your own beleif or requiring a “Well Done, TT”…hmmm – interesting!! You are saying a lgreat deal without realising it…Quote (JustAskin @ May 25 2010,05:12) Hi KJ, I se you are in your element – So David has finally given you a chance to bludy someones nose.
Do me a favour since you are hopping (or hoping) for joy over David – Please stop posting those narsties – I thought you change your name – or for what reason did you change your name?
By the way, I'm not intervening in your 'glory' or whatever you feel you have achieved so don't attack me on what others have written.
One more question: Why do you always appeal to WJ when you have something to say that you feel either indignant or righteous about?
Don't you see that it makes you seem like you are, well, asking for support – lacking confidence in your own beleif or requiring a “Well Done, TT”…hmmm – interesting!! You are saying a lgreat deal without realising it…
JA,Are you interested in answering the points or not?
Kangaroo Jack
JustAskin said:
Quote By the way, I'm not intervening in your 'glory' or whatever you feel you have achieved so don't attack me on what others have written.
Are you saying this because of Mike's false accusation that I said that Jesus is above the Father, an accusaton which I pointed out that Mike got from you?Kangaroo Jack
Quote (JustAskin @ May 25 2010,04:53) SF, Good post – I think your tiredness showed in your post though. I could feel it even without you saying so.
One thing: – We don't need a 'special' verse, a pebble, to throw at Trinitarians – The WHOLE of Scriptures is a MASSIVE BOULDER and they have been rolled over with many times aleady.
It is only because they have no backbone why they have not been completely crushed – and good thing too – Because God did not say that WE should crush them – That is Jesus' job.
We should be trying to to get them to come round to the ONLY TRUE GOD's way of thinking – Understand, Believe and Hold to, Jesus' dissertation on his Father – and be saved:
“For there is more glory in Heaven over one man that repents than in all those who have no need for repentence”
“For he who saves the life of another by bringing that one to God covers over a multitude of his own sins”
JA,Lol you could feel my tireness… man..i was hoping you wouldnt.
lol it seems that everyone has their speacial verse, im just through it in, to see how everyone would respond. i havent found it yet. I think it would be more profitable for Anti-Trins. even though i would still disagree lol.
True, but it would depend on who has the Truth.
Yet can we be right abotu every single detail?
so if we are wrong in one aspect, does that contaminate our Truth does it make it false.?lol did my super long post make any sense?
Much love,
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 25 2010,00:27) SF………..Messiah means (ANOINTED) ONE, ALSO. Christos is Greek for the Same thing the anointed on and the anointing is the Christo's. When we say Jesus the Christ , we are saying Jesus the Anointed . Check it out. peace and love………………….gene
Gene,ya i know that. but you made a connection between The literal annotied one, to OT heros, such as moses having anointed..
basically this is what i understood from you that there are different Christos. such as moses, elders, and angels. I do not believe that is correct, becuase there is a big difference in momentary anointing, and literaly beign the anointed one.
Thats where i differ. and the Use of Greek term Christo to compare to OT annoiting, is not the same.
Hi SF,
Quote And im looking for this verse for your other post as well. SOMEONE already mentioend it, i been spending hours searching for it. It says something like, the Son giving back the glory to the father, and he will be the God of all in all. I thuoght this was in revelations. but i cant seem to find it. im going crazy… Is this the verse you were looking for?
1 Corinthians 15:28
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.Hope that helps!
SF,
The Truth is the Truth – and Scriptures is Truth. The Adulterated parts can be gleened.
Think of this – Do you believe that we are wiser than God. What am I saying – do you know?
SF, do you have a DVD, a CD, Bluetooth on your Mobile? Tell me this – What happens if part of the CD/Dvd gets scratched, what happens if there is a short break in the Bluetooth signal — Does the system Fail? NO – Why not…..???
Because it is CODED to accommodate such adulteratations – Man devised it into his system. The data is distributed over many parts of the CD/DVD and anyone part that becomes corrupt (to a degree) can be FAITHFULLY reconstructed from the other parts – Ha – do you thing We are Wiser than God?? And the Bluetooth – the same – the signal is error-checked for faults and the receiver requests that a 'cleaner' signal be sent – perhaps even raising the signal powerlevel to make sure if a weak signal appeared to be the problem – and man did that – and are we wiser than God? Did you say “NO” – then why would God not CODE his Scriptures knowing that man would try to corrupt it?
How many times have you read; “Please show me a qualifying verse”, “Where else is this written”, “Scriptures is Fractal” – did you just skip over that because you didn;'t understand what it meant or the asker was just trying to p!$$ of his adversary – NO – there was a Reason – a Reason – a Reason.
KJ,
No, I wasn't even thinking of anything in htat vein. I was refering to the posts in this thread. You dispute with David – That you don't claim that what David is saying – right or wrong – is what all NonTrinis say right or wrong . that has been done before.
When you catch a bad fish – do not believe that then ALL Fish are bad (Even though it might be hard to think otherwise) – or you will starve.
KJ, I just re-read that snippet – Are you inviting me to re-join that debate – I think you had better not. Be satisfied with attacking Mike! (Sorry Mike).
KJ, do you think of yourself as the SITH in starwars with the double Lightsaber figting Both Obiwan AND Anakin – ha – KJ – Please … the desire for power has gone to the core of your being – you are becoming a danger to yourself (more so than ever before)I say again, stick to learning truth from small gains and massive failures. Don't invite me crush your head again. I perceive that even now you and WJ are speaking truth – at times though you do not know it – and that is good: For it was good that these things were hidden from the [so-called]great and the [so-called]wise and revealed onto the babes and sucklings lest they should believe and be saved and God's word becomes false.
Quote (JustAskin @ May 25 2010,06:28) SF, The Truth is the Truth – and Scriptures is Truth. The Adulterated parts can be gleened.
Think of this – Do you believe that we are wiser than God. What am I saying – do you know?
SF, do you have a DVD, a CD, Bluetooth on your Mobile? Tell me this – What happens if part of the CD/Dvd gets scratched, what happens if there is a short break in the Bluetooth signal — Does the system Fail? NO – Why not…..???
Because it is CODED to accommodate such adulteratations – Man devised it into his system. The data is distributed over many parts of the CD/DVD and anyone part that becomes corrupt (to a degree) can be FAITHFULLY reconstructed from the other parts – Ha – do you thing We are Wiser than God?? And the Bluetooth – the same – the signal is error-checked for faults and the receiver requests that a 'cleaner' signal be sent – perhaps even raising the signal powerlevel to make sure if a weak signal appeared to be the problem – and man did that – and are we wiser than God? Did you say “NO” – then why would God not CODE his Scriptures knowing that man would try to corrupt it?
How many times have you read; “Please show me a qualifying verse”, “Where else is this written”, “Scriptures is Fractal” – did you just skip over that because you didn;'t understand what it meant or the asker was just trying to p!$$ of his adversary – NO – there was a Reason – a Reason – a Reason.
Im Just Askin is it that time of the month for you?Hold your horses and so it can catch its breath cowboy.
I stated in a differnt thread that we are fools compared to God.
1 Corinthians 1:27 “But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;”Oh I agree. Man can corrupt things. But thats not my point.
for example a child as he grows may believe in a number of things, yet as they grow they find mistakes in their beliefs and change it. Do we know every single thing about God? as we get to know him better, the more we will know abuot him. To know everything is death. literally. its too much.my point being, Can we be wrong at times? can we make mistakes. And even though one might have 80 percent of the truth, couldnt this person also have mistakes in his logic, and start conforming to more truth.
Quote (Lightenup @ May 25 2010,06:24) Hi SF, Quote And im looking for this verse for your other post as well. SOMEONE already mentioend it, i been spending hours searching for it. It says something like, the Son giving back the glory to the father, and he will be the God of all in all. I thuoght this was in revelations. but i cant seem to find it. im going crazy… Is this the verse you were looking for?
1 Corinthians 15:28
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.Hope that helps!
YES THATS THE VERSE!!!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! DRIVING ME INSANE!!!!
im giong crazy thinking it was in Revelations…lol what made me think that.THANK YOU, YOUR A LIFESAVER! (The candy)
lolSomeone once told me that the shortest verse in the Bible is “Jesus Wept”.
But there is another verse with just two words in it.But I guess, the first is still the shortest by virtue of less letters only.
From “Is Jesus Yahweh” thread. Opening post by Catholic Apologist:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=2634
The Name Yahweh
The name Yahweh (or Jehovah) appears nearly 7,000 times in the Old Testament. Most English
translations render the Hebrew name for God as LORD, while some (like the New Jerusalem Bible and
Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible) use “Yahweh” and others (like the American Standard Version of
1901 and the New World Translation) use “Jehovah.” But, between Malachi and Matthew the Name
suddenly disappears! There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, and not one of
them has the Name in either Greek or Hebrew letters. The Watchtower Society claims that the Name
was there in the original Greek New Testament, but that it was later removed. They claim this with no
real evidence, for they are unable to produce even one manuscript of the Greek New Testament with
the Name! Besides, some of those manuscripts of the New Testament date from within one
generation of the original writings. That leaves very little chance for the Society’s theory of a
conspiracy to remove the Name from the New Testament text. If we accept the facts the way they are
(without trying to change them to fit a preconceived theory) we are forced to admit the Name is not in
the New Testament.The Name Jesus
In the New Testament we meet up with another name. The name that is emphasized in the New
Testament is the name of Jesus. (This makes for an interesting comparison in the New World
Translation. While the Watchtower Society “restores” the name Jehovah 237 times to the New
Testament, their Comprehensive Concordance lists the name Jesus over 900 times!) In the book of
Acts we particularly notice the emphasis of the name of Jesus. If you have an exhaustive
concordance look up the word “name” in the book of Acts. Over and over again you will see the
Name the early Christian church emphasized was the name of Jesus! At Acts 3:6 Peter healed the
lame beggar in the name of Jesus Christ. In Acts 4:7,10,12,17,18 we read about the first disciples
defending themselves before the Sanhedrin, proclaiming their use of the name of Jesus. In Chapter
5 they are back before the Jewish high court. For whose name did they suffer? Acts 5:41 tells us:
“These, therefore, went their way from before the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been
counted worthy to be dishonored In behalf of his name.” They suffered for the name of Jesus! Space
does not permit us to look at all the relevant verses. Take time to consider these few: Acts 8:12; 9:13-
16, 27, 28; 15:26; 16:18; 19:17; 21:13; 26:9. In Acts the Name that is emphasized is the name of Jesus
Christ!Why the change of emphasis between the Old Testament Yahweh and the New Testament Jesus? Are
we being introduced to some rival deity in the New Testament when we encounter so much emphasis
on the name of Jesus? That is the way some nearly react when it is suggested that the answer lies in
the fact that the N.T. identifies Jesus with Yahweh. Bear in mind that I am not saying Jesus is the
Father! Rather, what I am saying is that Jesus and the Father share the same Name and are not in
some sort of competition.Is Jesus Really Jehovah?
Charles Taze Russell, the first President of the Watchtower Society, was firm in his belief that the
name Jehovah could not be applied to Jesus. He is quoted with apparent approval on page 22 of the
Society’s official history book Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Divine Purpose (published in 1959):“We confidently assert that the name Jehovah is never applied in Scripture to any but the Father. It is
for those who claim the reverse to give a text, and show its applicability to Jesus or anyone else than
the Father. Here is a way to prove the matter conclusively-the New Testament writers quote much
from the Old Testament; do they ever quote a passage in which the word Jehovah occurs and apply it
to Jesus? We claim that they do not.” -Quoted from pages 2,3 of the August 1882 issue of Zion’s
Watch Tower. [Note: In recent years the Society has backed down from this position.]Contrast what Russell wrote with this statement from a contemporary of his – J. Gresham Machen, a
Professor at Princeton. He wrote in the book Christianity and Liberalism (1923):“It is a matter of small consequence whether Paul ever applies to Jesus the Greek word which is
translated ‘God’ in the English Bible; certainly it is very difficult, in view of Rom. ix. 5, to deny that he
does. However that may be, the term ‘Lord,’ which is Paul’s regular designation of Jesus, is really just
as much a designation of deity as is the term ‘God.’ It was a designation of deity even in the pagan
religions with which Paul’s converts were familiar; and (what is far more important) in the Greek
translation of the Old Testament which was current in Paul’s day and was used by the Apostle himself,
the term was used to translate the ‘Jahwe’ of the Hebrew text. And Paul does not hesitate to apply to
Jesus stupendous passages in the Greek Old Testament where the term Lord thus designates the
God of Israel.”-page 97. [Note: for those interested in whether the term “God” is applied to Jesus in
the N.T., see our information sheets dealing with Titus 2:13/2 Peter 1:1; John 1:1; and Colossians 2:9.]Let’s consider a few quotations from the Old Testament and see if the New Testament writers had any
problem in applying passages containing the name Yahweh to Jesus. We will use the New World
Translation for these comparisons.The apostle Paul quoted Psalm 68:18 and applied it to the Ascension of Jesus Christ. Psalm 68:18
says: “You have ascended on high; you have carried away captives; you have taken gifts in the form
of men, Yes, even the stubborn ones, to reside among them, O Jah God.” (“Jah” is an abbreviated
form of the name Jehovah.) Notice how Paul applies this passage at Ephesians 4:7-10: “Now to each
one of us undeserved kindness was given according to how the Christ measured out the free gift.
Wherefore he says: ‘When he ascended on high he carried away captives; he gave gifts in men.’ Now
the expression ‘he ascended,’ what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower regions,
that is, the earth? The very one that descended is also the one that ascended far above all the
heavens, that he might give fulness to all things.”Hebrews 1:10-12 quotes the Greek Septuagint version of Psalm 102:25-27 and applies it to Christ:
“You at the beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are the works
of your hands. They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an
outer garment they will grow old, and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and
they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out.” Not only do we here
see a New Testament writer apply an Old Testament passage about Yahweh to Jesus Christ – notice
to what lengths this New Testament writer will go in his scripture application. He openly identifies
Christ as the Creator of heaven and earth. And he contrasts the impermanence of creation against its
Creator, who is unchangeable and eternal. Does it make sense to think the writer of Hebrews felt
Christ was only a creature after seeing how he applies Scripture?Notice this comparison between 1 Peter 3:14,15 and Isaiah 8:12,13. 1 Peter says: “But even if you
should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are happy. However, the object of their fear do not
you fear, neither become agitated. But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your h
earts, always ready to
make a defense before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you, but doing so
together with a mild temper and deep respect.” Now, Isaiah says: “‘You men must not say, “A
conspiracy!” respecting all that of which this people keep saying, “A conspiracy!” and the object of
their fear you men must not fear, nor must you tremble at it. Jehovah of armies – he is the One whom
you should treat as holy, and he should be the object of your fear, and he should be the One causing
you to tremble.’” This comparison is even more striking if one compares the Greek word order of 1
Peter with the Greek Septuagint of Isaiah. The Hebrew says: “Sanctify Jehovah of hosts” (according
to Jay Green’s The Interlinear Hebrew-Greek-English Bible) but the Greek Septuagint has “Sanctify ye
the Lord himself.” (From Brenton’s translation of the Septuagint.) Now, Peter, writing in Greek, would
most naturally quote from the standard Greek translation of the OT. – the Septuagint. The Septuagint
here says: kurion auton hagiasate (Greek word order: “Lord himself sanctify”). Peter’s quotation in 1
Peter 3:14,15 is practically identical except here he exchanges the word auton(himself) for who is
Christ. Peter writes: kurion de ton christon hagiasate (Greek word order: “Lord but the Christ
sanctify” – compare the Watchtower Society’s Kingdom Interlinear Translation.) It is as if Peter were
adding a parenthetical thought to his quotation from Isaiah: “The object of their fear do not you fear,
neither become agitated. The Lord (who is Christ) you should sanctify. . .“ Peter was making sure we
knew that the Lord we are to sanctify is Christ!Notice this prophecy from Isaiah 40:3-5: “Listen! Someone is calling out in the wilderness: ‘Clear up
the way of Jehovah, you people! Make the highway for our God through the desert plain straight. Let
every valley be raised up, and every mountain and hill be made low. And the knobby ground must
become level land, and the rugged ground a valley plain. And the glory of Jehovah will certainly be
revealed, and all flesh must see it together. “‘ Matthew 3:1-3, Mark 1:1-4, Luke 3:2-6 and John 1:23
apply this passage to John the Baptist’s preparatory work before the ministry of Jesus.It becomes undeniable that New Testament writers applied Old Testament passages about Yahweh to
Jesus. Can we be sure they were thereby identifying Jesus with Yahweh? Consider this example:
Isaiah 6:1-10: “In the year that King Uzziah died I, however, got to see Jehovah, sitting on a throne
lofty and lifted up, and his skirts were filling the temple. Seraphs were standing above him. . .And this
one called to that one and said: ‘Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies. The fullness of all the earth is
his glory’. . .And I proceeded to say: ‘Woe to me! . for my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of armies,
himself!’. . .And I began to hear the voice of Jehovah saying: ‘Whom shall I send, and who will go for
us?’ And I proceeded to say: ‘Here I am! Send me.’ And he went on to say: ‘Go, and you must say to
this people, “Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do
not get any knowledge.” Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears
unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with
their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not
actually turn back and get healing for themselves .“‘ Compare this with John 12:36b,37,39-41: “Jesus
spoke these things and went off and hid from them. But although he had performed so many signs
before them, they were not putting faith in him. . .The reason why they were not able to believe is that
Isaiah said: ‘He has blinded their eyes and he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see
with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around and I should heal them.’ Isaiah
said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him.” If the Apostle John had no
problem saying that Isaiah’s vision of Jehovah in His temple was a vision of Christ’s glory, why should
we? Even the New World Translation Reference Bible cross-references Isaiah 6:1 to John 12:41!We are told at Isaiah 45:22-24: “Turn to me and be saved, all you at the ends of the earth; for I am God,
and there is no one else. By my own self I have sworn – out of my own mouth in righteousness the
word has gone forth, so that it will not return – that to me every knee will bend down, every tongue
will swear, saying, ‘Surely in Jehovah there are full righteousness and strength.”’ Notice how Paul
makes a direct allusion to this passage at Philippians 2:9-11 (NIV): “Therefore God exalted him to the
highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee
should bow, in heaven and on the earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus
Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” At Isaiah 45:23 we were told that every knee would
bend in worship and every tongue swear to Jehovah. Paul alludes to this and says this would happen
“at the name of Jesus.” Why? Because Paul adds that God has shared with Christ “the name that is
above every name” – the Divine Name. So, when every knee bows before Jesus and every tongue
confesses Jesus Christ as LORD, does this detract from the Father? Not at all! Rather, Paul said this
would glorify God the Father! – compare John 5:23. (Interestingly, early editions of the New Testament
part of the New World Translation had a cross-reference at Philippians 2:10 pointing to Isaiah 45:23.
Their 1984 Reference Bible edition has removed that cross-reference.)Consider these points: What was the most sacred Name to the Jews? Didn’t the people of Israel have
an intense awe for the Divine Name? So, how could Paul and Peter and John (who were from a
Jewish background) so freely apply passages about Yahweh to Jesus Christ? Why did they have no
hesitation in identifying Christ with Jehovah? When they called Jesus LORD, weren’t they making a
mind-boggling claim? The risen Savior was identified with Yahweh of the Old Testament! Is that
perhaps one reason why we are told at 1 Corinthians 12:3: “No one can say: ‘Jesus is LORD,’ except
by the Holy Spirit.”Kangaroo Jack
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