The glory of the builder

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 10 2009,13:17)

Quote (Gene @ Aug. 11 2009,03:27) Irene……..Changing the text to say what it does (NOT) say is what Trinitarians do . No where in John 1:1 is the word Jesus, if John meant to say Jesus he would have written Jesus , he new how to spell Jesus and if that is what he want us to understand he would have simple written it. Simple logic would tell you that. Irene Just read the words for what they mean themselves and don't try to change there meanings. IMO peace and love to you and Georg…………………gene Did you read all of my post?  Tead it again and ypu will see that I said :” WHO BECAME JESUS, NOT THAT HE WAS JESUS, I CORRECTED NYSELF.   You did not read all of it. Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene

So the Word who was God became Jesus?

So it was the Father who came in the flesh?

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Gene @ Aug. 10 2009,13:39)

thinker………..Where does it say Jesus is the builder of (ALL) things,  He is counted (WORTHY) of (MORE) Glory then (the servant) of the House is, thats the issue here. Your making it something else altogether. Stick to the context of what being said, don't add to it, Trinitarian delusions. IMO

Gene,
It clearly says that Jesus is counted worthy of the glory of the builder. If God builds all things then the implication is clear. Jesus is counted worthy of glory EQUAL with God. Please consider taking a course in logic.

thinker

[Cindy]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 11 2009,05:20)

Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 10 2009,13:17) Quote (Gene @ Aug. 11 2009,03:27) Irene……..Changing the text to say what it does (NOT) say is what Trinitarians do . No where in John 1:1 is the word Jesus, if John meant to say Jesus he would have written Jesus , he new how to spell Jesus and if that is what he want us to understand he would have simple written it. Simple logic would tell you that. Irene Just read the words for what they mean themselves and don't try to change there meanings. IMO peace and love to you and Georg…………………gene Did you read all of my post?  Read it again and ypu will see that I said :” WHO BECAME JESUS, NOT THAT HE WAS JESUS, I CORRECTED MYSELF.   You did not read all of it. Peace and Love Irene Hi Irene So the Word who was God became Jesus? So it was the Father who came in the flesh? WJ

No the Father did not become a Human being, it was the Word became flesh. And He was named Jesus.
John 1:14
Of course since you believe in a trinity it would be so. I don't believe in a trinity.
Peace and Love Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 10 2009,20:08)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 11 2009,05:20) Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 10 2009,13:17) Quote (Gene @ Aug. 11 2009,03:27) Irene……..Changing the text to say what it does (NOT) say is what Trinitarians do . No where in John 1:1 is the word Jesus, if John meant to say Jesus he would have written Jesus , he new how to spell Jesus and if that is what he want us to understand he would have simple written it. Simple logic would tell you that. Irene Just read the words for what they mean themselves and don't try to change there meanings. IMO peace and love to you and Georg…………………gene Did you read all of my post?  Read it again and ypu will see that I said :” WHO BECAME JESUS, NOT THAT HE WAS JESUS, I CORRECTED MYSELF.   You did not read all of it. Peace and Love Irene Hi Irene So the Word who was God became Jesus? So it was the Father who came in the flesh? WJ No the Father did not become a Human being, it was the Word became flesh. And He was named Jesus. John 1:14 Of course since you believe in a trinity it would be so.  I don't believe in a trinity. Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene

Of course the Word that was with the Father was not the Father.

But the “Word was God”, John 1:1, Right?

God is a “Being” isn't he?

So then the “Word who was God” came in the flesh, right?

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

Thinker ………God does build all things but uses builders to assist Him as He does Jesus. Jesus explained this (UPON THIS ROCK I SHALL BUILD THE CHURCH) now as yourself what ROCK was He talking about, and your will have your answer.

peace and love………………………..gene

[Cindy]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 11 2009,12:17)

Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 10 2009,20:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 11 2009,05:20) Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 10 2009,13:17) Quote (Gene @ Aug. 11 2009,03:27) Irene……..Changing the text to say what it does (NOT) say is what Trinitarians do . No where in John 1:1 is the word Jesus, if John meant to say Jesus he would have written Jesus , he new how to spell Jesus and if that is what he want us to understand he would have simple written it. Simple logic would tell you that. Irene Just read the words for what they mean themselves and don't try to change there meanings. IMO peace and love to you and Georg…………………gene Did you read all of my post?  Read it again and ypu will see that I said :” WHO BECAME JESUS, NOT THAT HE WAS JESUS, I CORRECTED MYSELF.   You did not read all of it. Peace and Love Irene Hi Irene So the Word who was God became Jesus? So it was the Father who came in the flesh? WJ No the Father did not become a Human being, it was the Word became flesh. And He was named Jesus. John 1:14 Of course since you believe in a trinity it would be so.  I don't believe in a trinity. Peace and Love Irene Hi Irene Of course the Word that was with the Father was not the Father. But the “Word was God”, John 1:1, Right? God is a “Being” isn't he? So then the “Word who was God” came in the flesh, right? WJ

Yes that is true, however I do not see it being a trinity. God is a title. Jesus before He became a Human Being was called
YEshua and the Father was Jehovah. Even tho my K.J. Bible does not have those words listed.
Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene………the reason those words are not in scripture is because they don;t belong there, You have come out Part way from the false teachings of the False Church, but you need to come (ALL) the way out Sis, Jesus never Preexisted his Berth on earth except in the (foreordained) plan of GOD as PETER put it. Don't you think Peter would Have Known if Jesus preexisted and don't you think He would have clearly said it if it were true. Remember what John said (All) who do not perceive Jesus as coming in the Flesh are Antichrist. “this (IS) the Spirit of Antichrist that you were told (by Paul) was coming and is already in the world”. The GNOSTIC'S believed JESUS WAS A GOD, who came from the pleura a GOD FROM GOD, HOMOUSIOUS same as the TRINITY Does. Jesus is fully one of Us in every way without exception a Human Being who GOD the FATHER perfected and raised up from the Grave to His present position, all done BY GOD the FATHER HIMSELF and NO OTHER GOD beings of any kind. IMO

peace and love to you and Georg…………………………….gene

[942767]

Hi All:

I stated this in another thread, but I will repeat it a little differently here because it is appropriate to this thread.

God built the house through Jesus. The scripture states that every house is builded by some man. It can be said that Jesus (the man) built the house as obeyed the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Quote

2Cr 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Quote

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[GeneBalthrop]

Marty……….Jesus was the master builder and He used the (ROCK) GOD to build with, “upon (THIS ROCK) i shall build the Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. That ROCK was the power of GOD the FATHER to get into the minds and Hearts of people, and change them BY(His SPIRIT) or intellect. Jesus used what GOD the FATHER was doing to build the Church. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

[942767]

Quote (Gene @ Aug. 14 2009,11:55)

Marty……….Jesus was the master builder and He used the (ROCK) GOD to build with, “upon (THIS ROCK) i shall build the Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. That ROCK was the power of GOD the FATHER to get into the minds and Hearts of people, and change them BY(His SPIRIT) or intellect. Jesus used what GOD the FATHER was doing to build the Church. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

Hi Gene:

The rock is the Word of God.

Quote

Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Cindy]

Quote (Gene @ Aug. 14 2009,03:54)

Irene………the reason those words are not in scripture is because they don;t belong there, You have come out Part way from the false teachings of the False Church, but you need to come (ALL) the way out Sis, Jesus never Preexisted his Berth on earth except in the (foreordained) plan of GOD as PETER put it. Don't you think Peter would Have Known if Jesus preexisted and don't you think He would have clearly said it if it were true. Remember what John said (All) who do not perceive Jesus as coming in the Flesh are Antichrist. “this (IS) the Spirit of Antichrist that you were told (by Paul) was coming and is already in the world”. The GNOSTIC'S believed JESUS WAS A GOD, who came from the pleura  a GOD FROM GOD, HOMOUSIOUS  same as the TRINITY Does.  Jesus is fully one of Us in every way without exception a Human Being who GOD the FATHER perfected and raised up from the Grave to His present position, all done BY GOD the FATHER HIMSELF and NO OTHER GOD beings of any kind. IMO peace and love to you and Georg…………………………….gene

Gene So what do you do with these Scriptures then?
Co. 1:15-17
Rev.3:14
John 1:1
Also John 17:5 says this
” And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the World was.”
And don't say again that Jodi had explained to me, that I don't remember Her doing so. I want your answer to that question.
Also we never even read the Bible in the Catholic Church, they do not believe in the preexisting of Jesus only the trinity doctrine. We came out of that Church 25 years ago and we have absolutely nothing to do with them no more. For your information we have come out of that system, and you don't know what they believe do you? Unless you belonged to that Church you should not jump to conclusion like that.
Peace and Love
Irene

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2010,08:06)

Hi KJ, Indeed all the prophets should have been honored as they represented God but they too were killed. Lk20

So you're saying that Moses is to be honored “just as” the Father is honored? Why is it then that Jesus is to receive more glory than Moses?

Hebrews 3:1-6:

1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

KJ

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
All the vessels and servants of God should have been honored .
But men hate God and His words so they were killed.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2010,08:35)

Hi KJ, All the vessels and servants of God should have been honored . But men hate God and His words so they were killed.

Nick,

You completely evaded my point. I indicated that Jesus said that all men should honor the Son “just as” they honor the Father. You replied saying that Jesus deserves only the honor of a prophet. Then I gave you Hebrews 3:1-3 which clearly says that Jesus is “worthy” of more glory (and honor) than Moses

Hebrews 3:1-6:

1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Please answer.

KJ

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
So what do you think JUST AS means and where is your scriptural support?
Did you really mean all of God's servants are God?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2010,06:31)

Hi KJ, So what do you think JUST AS means and where is your scriptural support? Did you really mean all of God's servants are God?

Nick,

This is the second time you have evaded my point. Hebrews 1:1-3 says that Jesus is counted worthy of “more glory” than Moses. Yet you say he is worthy of glory and honor equally with the prophets.

Your question about “just as” is meant to deny the Son. It says that Jesus is counted worthy of the glory of the builder and the builder is God. Therefore, Jesus is counted worthy of the glory and honor that God would receive.

Are we supposed to decide for ourselves?

1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

** Jesus is counted worthy of the glory of the builder of the house.

** The builder of the house is God.

Therefore, Jesus is counted worthy of the glory and honor which God receives. What about this do you not understand?

KJ

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
Did you not know that Jesus was greater than John who was the greatest of the prophets?

[KangarooJack]

David said:

Quote

This is the one thing that I always feels comes off wrong when speaking of the trinity/nontrinity. It always seems like we are saying Jesus is not worthy of all respect and glory.  As God's Son, and for what he did, he is worthy of so much.

David,

Your confession that Jesus is worthy is only lip service. You JW's and anti-ts consistently and relentlessly reduce jesus to the level of others by saying things like “Moses was a savior too” or “the angels are also sons.”

The fact is you stop far short of giving Jesus the glory that is required of you.

Hebrews 3:1-6:

1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Verse 3 says that the glory of Christ is the glory of the builder. Verse 4 says that the builder is God. Therefore, Christ is God or He receives equal glory with God.

KJ

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 20 2009,05:16)

Hebrews 3:1-6: 1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Verse 3 says that the glory of Christ is the glory of the builder. Verse 4 says that the builder is God. Therefore, Christ is God or He receives equal glory with God. thinker

No argument there. It says that he is the Apostle and High Priest of our confession.

Amen.

It doesn't say he is God.

Try again.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 05 2010,13:09)

Hi All, I haven't been following this thread, but the scripture Roo quotes actually contradicts what Roo says. It doesn't say the house receives NO glory, only not as much as the builder. Jack, how can you argue a point when the scriptural proof that you are wrong is in your own post? I don't think anyone will argue that Jesus is not greater than Moses. It is in scripture and is also logical to the human mind. On the other hand, the trinitarian arguement that God, in turn, is NOT greater than Jesus, even though it is also in scripture and logical to the human mind, is beyond me. my two cents mike

TO ALL:

The text does not have to say that the house receives no glory because it goes without saying. Does the house have a hand in building itself?

The text says that Jesus receives more glory than Moses “inasmuch as he who built the house receives more glory than the house.” Again, the house has no participation in building itself.
Did Moses take any credit for anything? No! He credited their deliverance to Jehovah and the Messenger of Jehovah (Numbers 20:16). He included Himself as being in the company of those who were delivered.

The song of Moses also credited their salvation to Jehovah and the Messenger of Jehovah (Ex. 14-15). Moses clearly does NOT incude himself even as an inrermediate agent in his song.

It just gets in Mike's craw that he cannot reduce Jesus to the same “savior” status with Moses.

Mike

Quote

I don't think anyone will argue that Jesus is not greater than Moses.

Ah but you do argue that Jesus should receive the glory God receives which is exactly what the text plainly infers:

“Jesus is counted worthy of more glory than Moses inasmuch as he who built the hosue receives more glory than the house. He who built all things is God“

Jesus receives the glory of the builder. The builder is God. Ergo….

Kangaroo Jack

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