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Quote (thethinker @ July 22 2009,10:34) Paladin said: Quote What YOU fail to realize is, if someone gives you everything, that does make you that someone who gave you all things. What you fail to realize is that if someone gives you something IT IS YOURS. You belong to Christ and He may do with you as He wills. I never said that the Son is the Father. I said that in His exalted position he is EQUAL to the Father. Jesus said that He has ALL authority now. Therefore, He is EQUAL with His Father or He does not really have ALL authority.
You really need to take a course in basic logic! Please!
Paladin said:
Quote He will turn it all back to the Father when the last enemy is destroyed. Then he himself will “Be subjected” to the Father. Well, if He inherited all things then His turning it back over to the Father will be voluntary. Would you have us to believe that the Father will take it back by force? Are you saying that the Father breaks contracts?
Until the Son voluntarily hands all back to the Father you are His and His alone! The Son owns you by inheritance. You are His!
ALL AUTHORITY MEANS ALL AUTHORITY!
Christ is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder!
thinker
All you lack is scripture that teaches that perspective.I have shown you that Jesus “will be subjected” to the Father in I Cor 15.
Where is YOUR scripture tellin you Jesus will subject himself?
It is all wishful thinking on your part.
Thinker……If all authority has been given, then the person did (NOT) have it before right, but GOD always had authority over everything, and Jesus is a subservient to the Father as I Cor 15, as Jesus own words plainly shows. Thinker dump the trinitarian garbage brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Quote (Paladin @ July 23 2009,00:50) Quote (thethinker @ July 22 2009,10:34) Paladin said: Quote What YOU fail to realize is, if someone gives you everything, that does make you that someone who gave you all things. What you fail to realize is that if someone gives you something IT IS YOURS. You belong to Christ and He may do with you as He wills. I never said that the Son is the Father. I said that in His exalted position he is EQUAL to the Father. Jesus said that He has ALL authority now. Therefore, He is EQUAL with His Father or He does not really have ALL authority.
You really need to take a course in basic logic! Please!
Paladin said:
Quote He will turn it all back to the Father when the last enemy is destroyed. Then he himself will “Be subjected” to the Father. Well, if He inherited all things then His turning it back over to the Father will be voluntary. Would you have us to believe that the Father will take it back by force? Are you saying that the Father breaks contracts?
Until the Son voluntarily hands all back to the Father you are His and His alone! The Son owns you by inheritance. You are His!
ALL AUTHORITY MEANS ALL AUTHORITY!
Christ is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder!
thinker
All you lack is scripture that teaches that perspective.I have shown you that Jesus “will be subjected” to the Father in I Cor 15.
Where is YOUR scripture tellin you Jesus will subject himself?
It is all wishful thinking on your part.
Paladin,
You are bent on hearing what you want to hear. I did not deny that the Son will be subject. I said it will be “voluntary.” If you give me something without any conditions or contigencies then it is mine. If I turn it back over to you then I am subjecting myself willingly and not out of compulsion. I gave my daughter a car and it is hers. It is registered in her name and she is the legal owner of the vehicle. I cannot require her to give it back. She could sue me if I took it from her. The law can force me to keep my word. However, she can yield the to me on her own volition.God gave the kingdom to the Son unconditionally without any conditions or contingencies. It is a matter of His oath. This means that the Son cannot required to give it back. God cannot and would not go back on an oath. He cannot require the Son to give the kingdom back anymore than He can break an oath. When the Son delivers the kingdom to the Father it is on His own volition. This means that He becomes subject to God WILLINGLY.
You haven't the faintest idea about relationships. If I would not go back on an oath to my daughter then God who is good far above me certainly would not. Indeed He cannot because He has exalted His word above His name.
Christ is the legal and covenantal heir of all things. If anything goes back to God it is because Christ willingly yields what is legally and rightfully His. Civil Law 101
thinker
Hi TT,
Or is one of the hundreds of times that when you say GOD you mean the FATHER?
You have to make the same adjustment when you read scripture?The word of God is not so obtuse but is able to be read without any adjustment for doctrinal views
Quote (thethinker @ July 23 2009,04:54) [/quote]
Paladin said:Quote He will turn it all back to the Father when the last enemy is destroyed. Then he himself will “Be subjected” to the Father. (thinker) Until the Son voluntarily hands all back to the Father you are His and His alone! The Son owns you by inheritance. You are His!
(P)
All you lack is scripture that teaches that perspective.
I have shown you that Jesus “will be subjected” to the Father in I Cor 15. Where is YOUR scripture tellin you Jesus will subject himself? [/quote](thinker)
Quote Paladin,
You are bent on hearing what you want to hear. I did not deny that the Son will be subject. I said it will be “voluntary.” If you give me something without any conditions or contigencies then it is mine. If I turn it back over to you then I am subjecting myself willingly and not out of compulsion. I gave my daughter a car and it is hers. It is registered in her name and she is the legal owner of the vehicle. I cannot require her to give it back. She could sue me if I took it from her. The law can force me to keep my word. However, she can yield the to me on her own volition.God gave the kingdom to the Son unconditionally without any conditions or contingencies. It is a matter of His oath. This means that the Son cannot required to give it back. God cannot and would not go back on an oath. He cannot require the Son to give the kingdom back anymore than He can break an oath. When the Son delivers the kingdom to the Father it is on His own volition. This means that He becomes subject to God WILLINGLY.
You haven't the faintest idea about relationships. If I would not go back on an oath to my daughter then God who is good far above me certainly would not. Indeed He cannot because He has exalted His word above His name.
Christ is the legal and covenantal heir of all things. If anything goes back to God it is because Christ willingly yields what is legally and rightfully His. Civil Law 101
Like I have pointed out to you three times now, thinker, the word used in I Cor 15 is PASSIVE, not ACTIVE. If Christ subjects himself, it will be active. HE Submits.
If God subjects him, it will be PASSIVE on Christ's part, ACTIVE on God's part. The word-form is PASSIVE, which shows Jesus NOT subjecting himself, NOT voluntary, NOT self-administered. Sorry to burst your bubble.
All that rhetoric of yours about law 101 and voluntary is just that, rhetoric. It is NOT scripture.
Quote (Gene @ July 23 2009,03:14) Thinker……If all authority has been given, then the person did (NOT) have it before right, but GOD always had authority over everything, and Jesus is a subservient to the Father as I Cor 15, as Jesus own words plainly shows. Thinker dump the trinitarian garbage brother. peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
But He has ALL authority now. ALL authority means ALL authority.thinker
Paladin said:
Quote Like I have pointed out to you three times now, thinker, the word used in I Cor 15 is PASSIVE, not ACTIVE. If Christ subjects himself, it will be active. HE Submits. If God subjects him, it will be PASSIVE on Christ's part, ACTIVE on God's part. The word-form is PASSIVE, which shows Jesus NOT subjecting himself, NOT voluntary, NOT self-administered. Sorry to burst your bubble.
All that rhetoric of yours about law 101 and voluntary is just that, rhetoric. It is NOT scripture.
Your own stubbornness prevents you from grasping the present facts and your present responsibility that is a consequence of the facts. Christ has ALL authority NOW! How would His future submission relieve you of your present responsibility to bow your knee to Him?
Your argument from the passive fails because the Son on His own initiative delivers the kingdom to the Father. This is the active voice (verse 24). The Son is then made subject (passive). The subjection is voluntary because it ultimately begins with the Son freely giving His property and His rights back to the Father. The Son is NOT bound to give it back. The Father is bound by His oath to let the Son keep His inheritance if He chooses. Is this “rhetoric” too? Do you want to talk about God's oaths? I think not. Your view is a contradiction of your own anti-trinitarian principle. Anti-trinitarians say that God is not a man that He should repent. Yet you make God a breaker of His oath. If the Son yields up His inheritance by force then God does repent. It's that simple! If this be the case then how do you know that God won't take back your inheritance? And if I asked you your answer would be “God cannot break an oath.”
Again, Paul clearly said that the Son yields up the kingdom to the Father (active). As a consequence of this He is subjected (passive). Please comment on it all in context. And don't forget that He has ALL authority NOW! So bow your knee or pay the consequences,
Quote Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2009,12:21) Hi TT,
So the Father and the God of Jesus gives to His Son ?
Yes Nick. The Father gave ALL authority to the Son. Now what will you do with it?thinker
Hi PD
Quote (Paladin @ July 22 2009,18:44)
Like I have pointed out to you three times now, thinker, the word used in I Cor 15 is PASSIVE, not ACTIVE. If Christ subjects himself, it will be active. HE Submits.If God subjects him, it will be PASSIVE on Christ's part, ACTIVE on God's part. The word-form is PASSIVE, which shows Jesus NOT subjecting himself, NOT voluntary, NOT self-administered. Sorry to burst your bubble.
All that rhetoric of yours about law 101 and voluntary is just that, rhetoric. It is NOT scripture.
Well then if what you say is true, then nobody willingly or voluntarily submits to the Father. We are all just a bunch of robots serving a brutal dictator!Therefore as the church is subject (hypotassō) unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Eph 5:24
Servants, be subject (hypotassō) to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 1 Peter 2:18
Servants, be subject (hypotassō) to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 1 Peter 5:5
The word-form here is passive also, which according to you means they are not doing the submitting willingly or voluntarily!
If you read the context of 1 Cor 15 you will see that Jesus truly does subject himself to the Father, for instance when it says…
Then cometh the end, “when he (Jesus) shall have delivered (paradidōmi, word-form active) up the kingdom to God, even the Father“; when he (Jesus) shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he (Jesus) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 1 24:24, 25
The very fact that Jesus will at the end be subject to the Father, itself implies that he is not subject to the Father now!
Why? It is because Jesus has absolutely all authority and power. Mt 11:27, 28:18, Luke 10:22, John 3:35, John 13:3,
In fact by him all things consist, (Col 1:16, 17) and all things are upheld by the Word of his power, Heb 1:3
Think of the magnitude of what that means. Jesus has infinite power holding together the very elements of the creation itself.
And the beautiful thing is the reason Jesus is giving back the Kingdom to the Father is so that God will be all in all.
When Jesus has fulfilled his mission as mediator of the creation there will no longer be a need for mediation. That is why God will be all in all. Yet at this time Jesus is all in all, since there is no other way to God and since if one has Jesus he has God! 1 John 2:23, 1 John 5:12, 1 John 5:20, 2 John 1:9
For the subjection of Jesus does not mean that Jesus will not have authority or power, as we see in Rev 5:13, 7:17, 22:1, which shows the Lamb sitting in the throne with the Father! The following prophesies bear out that Jesus reigns forever in his Kingdom.
“Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end“. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. Isa 9:7
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. “His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. Dan 7:14
These prophesies clearly reveal that the Kindom of Jesus is his to rule forever and ever!
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:8
WJ
Hi WJ,
Fine words but God is the head of Christ and Christ is the head of the man..
Besides if they were equal you would have two gods.
Equality with one is not possible is it.Keith,
Quote The very fact that Jesus will at the end be subject to the Father, itself implies that he is not subject to the Father now! That is interesting. Think about the Son's role now…He is acting as a mediator between us and the Father. The Father is not telling Him how to mediate therefore the Son is not subject to Him in that role. It seems like the Son is calling the shots in how He mediates, not the Father. In this role as mediator, the Son is not mediating under the Father's authority but He is the authority in the mediating role. Perhaps the Son is calling the shots in how he mediates for us and the Father is allowing Him that freedom. Then after the role of mediating comes to an end, His role again becomes one under the subjection of the Father. I don't see equality here…I see mediator as a lower role which the Father is not directing but the Son is directing. Just some thoughts…not sure.
Think of it like a court case…the Father is the Judge, Jesus is our attorney, we are the one on the stand. During the court case Jesus as our attorney has freedom in how He represents us. After the case is decided, as all leave the court room, the Father is no longer acting as judge and Jesus is no longer acting as the attorney. At that time God will be fully known by all…He will be all in all whether some are eternally separated or some are eternally united with Him. I do believe that Jesus will have rule of the kingdom of the saved as King of kings and Lord of Lords for ever under the authority of the Father who is the most High God.
Blessings,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ July 22 2009,23:53) Keith, Quote The very fact that Jesus will at the end be subject to the Father, itself implies that he is not subject to the Father now! That is interesting. Think about the Son's role now…He is acting as a mediator between us and the Father. The Father is not telling Him how to mediate therefore the Son is not subject to Him in that role. It seems like the Son is calling the shots in how He mediates, not the Father. In this role as mediator, the Son is not mediating under the Father's authority but He is the authority in the mediating role. Perhaps the Son is calling the shots in how he mediates for us and the Father is allowing Him that freedom. Then after the role of mediating comes to an end, His role again becomes one under the subjection of the Father. I don't see equality here…I see mediator as a lower role which the Father is not directing but the Son is directing. Just some thoughts…not sure.
Think of it like a court case…the Father is the Judge, Jesus is our attorney, we are the one on the stand. During the court case Jesus as our attorney has freedom in how He represents us. After the case is decided, as all leave the court room, the Father is no longer acting as judge and Jesus is no longer acting as the attorney. At that time God will be fully known by all…He will be all in all whether some are eternally separated or some are eternally united with Him. I do believe that Jesus will have rule of the kingdom of the saved as King of kings and Lord of Lords for ever under the authority of the Father who is the most High God.
Blessings,
Kathi
Hi KathiI think you are on the right track. The role of the Son forever will be in subjection to the Father since he took that role by coming in the flesh to be our mediator.
But as you know I still believe that Authority, roles, position has nothing to do with the nature of the being.
Just as in every Kingdom whether it is in the animal, mineral or vegetable Kingdom, domination does not affect the nature of the thing.
The President of the USA currently can be considered the most powerful man in the world, yet he is not one iota more human than any other man or woman.
The Holy Spirits role which is considered by many to be the personal Spirit of the Father flows from the Father and the Son and is in subjection to the Father and the Son yet the very nature of the Holy Spirit is identical to the Father and Jesus. Jesus is the baptizer in the Holy Spirit. The implications of that in itself should turn some heads.
Here is something to think about concerning Jesus role as mediator.
For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but “God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. Gal 3:18
Here we see that YHWH without a mediator talked to Abraham face to face and gave him a promise. But before the promise was fulfilled God did something else, in the next verse we read…
What, then, was the purpose of the law? “It was added because of transgressions” until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels “by a mediator. Vrs 19
Now we see that God added the law because of transgressions and was put into effect by a mediator until the promised seed was to come. But then we read in the next verse…
A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; “but God is one. Gal 3:20
The promise that through the seed of Abraham the nations of the earth would be blessed is fulfilled in Jesus who is “One” with God. Verse 20 is implying that now a mediator is no longer representing more than one party but “God” is one. In other words God and the Mediator are one and now there is the ability to talk once again face to face with God.
This is why Jesus was able to say…
If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, “you do know him and have seen him.” John 14:7
IMO Jesus is a mediator of a different type, for he is both the Judge and the Lawyer because in him is all fulness of the deity.
I had given this thought before and posted on it once but I believe that I have more clarity on it now. After reading your post I gave the mediator idea a little more thought and came across this, emphasis mine…
The law that thus interposed a mediator and conditions between man and God, was an exceptional state limited to the Jews, and parenthetically preparatory to the Gospel, God's normal mode of dealing, as He dealt with Abraham, namely, face to face directly; by promise and grace, and not conditions; to all nations united by faith in the one seed (Eph 2:14, 16, 18), and not to one people to the exclusion and severance from the One common Father, of all other nations. It is no objection to this view, that the Gospel, too, has a mediator (1Ti 2:5). “For Jesus is not a mediator separating the two parties in the covenant of promise or grace, as Moses did, but One in both nature and office with both God and man (compare “God in Christ,” Ga 3:17): representing the whole universal manhood (1Co 15:22, 45, 47), and also bearing in Him “all the fulness of the Godhead.” Even His mediatorial office is to cease when its purpose of reconciling all things to God shall have been accomplished (1Co 15:24); and God's ONENESS (Zec 14:9), as “all in all,” shall be fully manifested.” Compare Joh 1:17, where the two mediators-Moses, the severing mediator of legal conditions, and Jesus, the uniting mediator of grace-are contrasted. The Jews began their worship by reciting the Schemah, opening thus, “Jehovah our God is ONE Jehovah”; which words their Rabbis (as Jarchius) interpret as teaching not only the unity of God, but the future universality of His Kingdom on earth (Zep 3:9). Paul (Ro 3:30) infers the same truth from the ONENESS of God (compare Eph 4:4-6). He, as being One, unites all believers, without distinction, to Himself (Ga 3:8, 16, 28; Eph 1:10; 2:14; compare Heb 2:11) in direct communion. The unity of God involves the unity of the people of God, and also His dealing directly without intervention of a mediator. Source
Just something to think about!
Blessings Keith
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2009,13:08) Hi TT,
So God[the Father] is the Source?
Nick,
I asked you a question. The Son has ALL authority now. What will you do with it?thinker
Lightenup said:…
Quote I don't see equality here…I see mediator as a lower role which the Father is not directing but the Son is directing. Just some thoughts…not sure. Think of it like a court case…the Father is the Judge, Jesus is our attorney, we are the one on the stand….
Hi Kathi,
We cannot use the analogy of the Father being the judge and the Son being only the mediator. For under the new covenant the Son is both judge and mediator,
Quote For the Father judges no one, but has committed ALL judgment to the Son, that all men should honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father This looks like equality to me. We know that Nick would say, “So the Son received His authority to judge from the Father.” But why? Because He wanted the Son to be EQUALLY honored.
This thread is about the glory of the builder. Hebrews 3:3-4 says that Christ is “counted worthy” of the glory of the builder and that the builder is God. Therefore, Christ is God or He receives EQUAL GLORY with God or both. Christ's equality with God cannot be denied here.
thinker
Hi TT,
Jesus is Lord of all but you disagree and want instead to make him God?
His Father is our God.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 23 2009,13:20) Hi PD Quote (Paladin @ July 22 2009,18:44)
Like I have pointed out to you three times now, thinker, the word used in I Cor 15 is PASSIVE, not ACTIVE. If Christ subjects himself, it will be active. HE Submits.If God subjects him, it will be PASSIVE on Christ's part, ACTIVE on God's part. The word-form is PASSIVE, which shows Jesus NOT subjecting himself, NOT voluntary, NOT self-administered. Sorry to burst your bubble.
All that rhetoric of yours about law 101 and voluntary is just that, rhetoric. It is NOT scripture.
Well then if what you say is true, then nobody willingly or voluntarily submits to the Father. We are all just a bunch of robots serving a brutal dictator!Therefore as the church is subject (hypotassō) unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Eph 5:24
Servants, be subject (hypotassō) to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 1 Peter 2:18
Servants, be subject (hypotassō) to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 1 Peter 5:5
The word-form here is passive also, which according to you means they are not doing the submitting willingly or voluntarily!
If you read the context of 1 Cor 15 you will see that Jesus truly does subject himself to the Father, for instance when it says…
Then cometh the end, “when he (Jesus) shall have delivered (paradidōmi, word-form active) up the kingdom to God, even the Father“; when he (Jesus) shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he (Jesus) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 1 24:24, 25
The very fact that Jesus will at the end be subject to the Father, itself implies that he is not subject to the Father now!
Why? It is because Jesus has absolutely all authority and power. Mt 11:27, 28:18, Luke 10:22, John 3:35, John 13:3,
In fact by him all things consist, (Col 1:16, 17) and all things are upheld by the Word of his power, Heb 1:3
Think of the magnitude of what that means. Jesus has infinite power holding together the very elements of the creation itself.
And the beautiful thing is the reason Jesus is giving back the Kingdom to the Father is so that God will be all in all.
When Jesus has fulfilled his mission as mediator of the creation there will no longer be a need for mediation. That is why God will be all in all. Yet at this time Jesus is all in all, since there is no other way to God and since if one has Jesus he has God! 1 John 2:23, 1 John 5:12, 1 John 5:20, 2 John 1:9
For the subjection of Jesus does not mean that Jesus will not have authority or power, as we see in Rev 5:13, 7:17, 22:1, which shows the Lamb sitting in the throne with the Father! The following prophesies bear out that Jesus reigns forever in his Kingdom.
“Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end“. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. Isa 9:7
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. “His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. Dan 7:14
These prophesies clearly reveal that the Kindom of Jesus is his to rule forever and ever!
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:8
WJ
If you will care to explain how it is several people can submit themselves to each other, without being subjected by each other. It iwll be interesting.The KJV reads “humbles yourselves” which means it is more than one person, and one person cannot humble “selves” passively. Persons who are humbled by the reality of God, qualify for inclusion in this practice. It is a passive acceptance of the humiliation all Christians experience when they submit to the calling and election of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2009,22:20) Hi TT,
Jesus is Lord of all but you disagree and want instead to make him God?
His Father is our God.
Nick,
You have never demonstrated that there is a difference between being Lord of all and being God. You assume there is a difference. Explain the difference between being the Lord of all and being God.thinker
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