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BTW I was know as martian on here. Had to get a new password/name cause I forgot my other one.
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” ― Mahatma Gandhi
In my forty years of walking with God, I have had many opportunities to study His Word in great detail. While recovering from some surgeries I spent many months debating on forums and face book groups. In most cases no one ever looked beyond their proofs to see if their conclusions had any real value to the saint wanting to actually mature in Christ.
Real Christianity is not about intellectual knowledge of the scriptures or about rules to follow. Real Christianity is about relationship with our creator and becoming what he intended us to be. For this purpose he gave us a perfect example in His son, Jesus the Christ.
For me judging the validity of doctrine became about the fruit more then what someone believes they can prove from scripture. The reason for this belief is that scriptural proofs are useless unless the two sides on a matter can agree on an honest set of hermeneutical principles by which to interpret scripture. With that in mind, I have compiled group of articles I Have written on this subject.
It just becomes a hissy fit of opinion and argument. When one sits back and honestly observes it you can see that it bears an uncanny resemblance to the philosophers on Mars Hill expounding on the meaning of life. The saddest part is that Christianity as a whole has such poor examples of real ministry that they have come to believe that what they are doing actually is ministry.
A great many of the false doctrines that have invaded the church can easily be debunked with little or no scriptural proof texts. How to do that is the emphasis of this article.
Yahweh is a good Father. Like all good fathers he wants his children to be like Him, but how is that possible? After all he is God and we are men. After the fall we were separated from God by sin and needed to be made one with God again. From the fall at the garden God had a plan to redeem man back to himself but he did not stop there. He wanted more then immature children. He wanted mature men and women that had his character, motives and intentions. To accomplish this he had a perfect two part plan for a perfect son. Jesus the Messiah had a two fold ministry.
1.1. To be a blood sacrifice to redeem man back to God.
2.2. To be the perfect example to his brethren of what it looks like to have the character of God in a human being. In doing so Christ gave us an example without question of the plan of God for humanity.
Does God really expect us to become like Christ?
1 Pet 2:21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.John 13:13-15
You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.Matt. 11:29
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.Phil.2:5
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.1John 2:6
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.When someone asks me to believe a particular doctrine, I have a simple question for them. “What is the fruit of your doctrine? How does it help me become like Christ?” The most common response I receive is a blank stare. They are not accustomed to hearing that question. They expect me to agree with them or start the age old and useless tit for tat scriptural proofs dance.
Often times I will get a response that we can’t really be like Christ to any deep measure. Yet, scripture is very clear on the subject.
Ephesians 4:11-13
11And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.
12His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church),
13[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.
(Amplified Bible)
There is no ambiguity in this portion of scripture. It does indeed say that we are to become like Christ to the full stature that belongs to Christ’s own perfection. From the context it is clear that this is not in heaven but here on this Earth. The offices of the church were established by Christ himself to accomplish this standard for Christianity.
Asking a person what their doctrine produces in us is usually enough, but there are those that need or want to know more. Especially when they examine their own doctrines.
So what are these fruits that doctrine should produce? Most Christians have knowledge of the fruits of the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23
Amplified Bible (AMP)
22But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,
23Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [that can bring a charge].
Do our doctrines actually work with the Spirit of God to produce those traits in us or are they just mental imagery and idle philosophy to be argued in debate?
Romans 15:4 For whatever was thus written in former days was written for our instruction, that by [our steadfast and patient] endurance and the encouragement [drawn] from the Scriptures we might hold fast to and cherish hope.How does the doctrine in question instruct or foster encouragement and hope?
2 Timothy 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.How does the doctrine correct, reproof or train me in righteousness? With what does it equip me?
1 Cor 14:26What then, brethren, is [the right course]? When you meet together, each one has a hymn, a teaching, a disclosure of special knowledge or information, an utterance in a [strange] tongue, or an interpretation of it. [But] let everything be constructive and edifying and for the good of all.
What is constructive about the doctrine? How is it edifying? How does it build me up?
To me the most precious of all fruits is HOPE. Without hope what would we look forward to in this life? We look at Christ and see him overcome temptation as our example. Does our doctrine show us an example in which we can take hope to overcome temptation? The greatest hope of all is the resurrection to eternal life. Does our doctrine produce hope (by way of example) that we can be resurrected in like manner?
The entire purpose of God is wrapped up in the plan to make all men like Christ. The awesome power of the cross is just the beginning. From that mighty work of grace we are legally in the plan of God and can boldly approach Him to change us into the very image of His son. Even as Christ represented the cha
racter and heart of His Father, so should we represent Christ. Christ is our example.
We have established that Christ is our example and that we are to truly become like him. The question we must ask of our doctrines is does what we teach promote and validate this plan or does it make it harder to accomplish? Does a doctrine make Christ an example we can never follow? Does it bring doubt as to our ability to actually follow him? Does our doctrine obscure him as an example?
I live in the very traditional Bible Belt in Mid-West America. When I ask local pastors about the fruit of their doctrines they have no clue what I am talking about. They are steeped in the rituals that have been passed down for 200 to 1900 years. In most cases they do not even know how to define the doctrines of their own denomination. Even the ones that do attempt to define them have little experience with proper interpretation principles of the Word. The church stopped teaching decades ago and has become more of a social club with a watered down milk toast allegorical message. They do not teach Bible at all. For the most part it has become a spectator sport with the talking head in the pulpit and the audience below. Rarely are the congregations encouraged to ask questions or even to study on their own. When a hungry soul does have the nerve to question the powers that be they are quickly set down and told to accept whatever the pastor gives out. With no education or human resources from which to learn the tools of Bible Study the hungry saint dies on the vine and becomes a placid automaton, just going through the motions of spirituality.Hi Martian,
Then you agree that is it not important whether one believes in preexistence or not, right?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgNope not right.
I ask how does preexistence help me to have hope that I can be like Christ? How does it help me do that? If it is just so many words with no fruit what is the point in believing it?Actually there is fruit from a belief in preexistence, but it is bad fruit. Because there is no clear scripture as to how this supposed preexistence effected the nature, capabilities or knowledge of Christ we do not know if what he did is something we can do or not?
* Let me point out I am not talking about Christ as the blood sacrifice, I am talking about how this son walked with his Father and became perfect.Quote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,08:58) Nope not right.
I ask how does preexistence help me to have hope that I can be like Christ? How does it help me do that? If it is just so many words with no fruit what is the point in believing it?
Hi Martin,Could not the same be said about not believing in preexistence?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,09:06) Actually there is fruit from a belief in preexistence, but it is bad fruit. Because there is no clear scripture as to how this supposed preexistence effected the nature, capabilities or knowledge of Christ we do not know if what he did is something we can do or not?
* Let me point out I am not talking about Christ as the blood sacrifice, I am talking about how this son walked with his Father and became perfect.
Hi Martin,Please explain how the belief in preexistence produces bad fruit?
Perhaps you can explain just exactly how this happens, OK?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgIn order for Christ to be a perfect example for us to follow we must have the same starting place and the same capabilities. A preexistence opens up doors of whether Christ has some added capability, knowledge not available to us. If that is so we cannot follow in the same path as he.
We all act/make decisions on the basis of our experiences and memories. If Christ had memories from a prior life in heaven, it would be a great motivator for him to walk with God and return to paradise. That is a motivator that is not available to us. Therefore he cannot be tempted as us to fall from that calling. — Reasonably speaking if any one of us had ten minutes in heaven and came back here we would have motivation based on the memory that would far outstretch those without that experience. We would base our decisions on criteria not available to others.Quote (shem4name @ April 20 2012,15:58) Nope not right.
I ask how does preexistence help me to have hope that I can be like Christ? How does it help me do that? If it is just so many words with no fruit what is the point in believing it?
So if YOU decide a doctrine helps you out, or makes you feel better about yourself, then you will accept it?It sounds to me like you want the Bible to teach exactly what your itching ears want to hear – whether it really does or not.
If your Lord said, “I came down from heaven”, then it is of no consequence how that makes you feel, or whether or not it helps you be like Jesus. The goal is to believe the words of the one you call your Lord, even if that means he was different from you and that you will never be anything more than a shadow of what he was. We are to follow the example Christ set to the best of our sinful, human ability. No one is expecting that any of us will be as perfect as he was – but we are to try our best.
(I agree with the last part of your OP. Churches should be open to many speakers, and not consist of a bunch of sheep listening to a shepherd that isn't even able to scripturally defend the man-made doctrines he teaches each week.)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 21 2012,09:19) Quote (shem4name @ April 20 2012,15:58) Nope not right.
I ask how does preexistence help me to have hope that I can be like Christ? How does it help me do that? If it is just so many words with no fruit what is the point in believing it?
So if YOU decide a doctrine helps you out, or makes you feel better about yourself, then you will accept it?It sounds to me like you want the Bible to teach exactly what your itching ears want to hear – whether it really does or not.
If your Lord said, “I came down from heaven”, then it is of no consequence how that makes you feel, or whether or not it helps you be like Jesus. The goal is to believe the words of the one you call your Lord, even if that means he was different from you and that you will never be anything more than a shadow of what he was. We are to follow the example Christ set to the best of our sinful, human ability. No one is expecting that any of us will be as perfect as he was – but we are to try our best.
(I agree with the last part of your OP. Churches should be open to many speakers, and not consist of a bunch of sheep listening to a shepherd that isn't even able to scripturally defend the man-made doctrines he teaches each week.)
When Did I say anything about itching ears. You did not read my post. I want doctrine that helps me complete God's plan for me. That plan is summed up in Eph4:11-13. If your doctrine does not help me to become like christ it is just an idle philosophy.Quote (shem4name @ April 20 2012,16:19) In order for Christ to be a perfect example for us to follow we must have the same starting place and the same capabilities.
How then is God to be a perfect example for Jesus?John 5:19
I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.Does this mean Jesus and God had to “have the same starting place” and “the same capabilities” in order for the Father to be an example the Son could follow?
Quote (shem4name @ April 20 2012,16:27) If your doctrine does not help me to become like christ it is just an idle philosophy.
Suit yourself Martian. As for me, I will believe the scriptures whether or not I think they make it more possible for me to be like Jesus.Quote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,09:19) In order for Christ to be a perfect example for us to follow we must have the same starting place and the same capabilities. A preexistence opens up doors of whether Christ has some added capability, knowledge not available to us. If that is so we cannot follow in the same path as he.
We all act/make decisions on the basis of our experiences and memories. If Christ had memories from a prior life in heaven, it would be a great motivator for him to walk with God and return to paradise. That is a motivator that is not available to us. Therefore he cannot be tempted as us to fall from that calling. — Reasonably speaking if any one of us had ten minutes in heaven and came back here we would have motivation based on the memory that would far outstretch those without that experience. We would base our decisions on criteria not available to others.
Hi Martin,You are making the assumption that only Christ preexisted.
Our Preexistence
2Tm.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given [[[us]]] in Christ Jesus before the world began, (John 15:27)“The Word” in us!
John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit),
because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning.
Acts 12:24 But “The word” of God grew and multiplied.Jeremiah's preexistence:
Jer.1:5 Before I(YHVH) formed thee in the belly I knew thee;
and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,
and I(YHVH) ordained thee(Jeremiah) a prophet unto the nations.Preexistant fallen Angels
Jude:1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you,
feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of
winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ April 21 2012,09:07) Quote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,08:58) Nope not right.
I ask how does preexistence help me to have hope that I can be like Christ? How does it help me do that? If it is just so many words with no fruit what is the point in believing it?
Hi Martin,Could not the same be said about not believing in preexistence?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Martin,You still haven't answered this question?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike thank you for posting that verse it proves my point. Christ could do nothing by himself. He must not be God then. We can do nothing of ourself but have to rely on God in us too. The fact that Christ could not arbitrarily do what he wanted proved he could not do whatever God did. I never said God was our example. I said Christ was and is our example.
Christ is the perfect example of what it looks like to have the character, motives and intentions of God developed in a normal human being. (perfected by what he suffered ect.) In that way he is the perfect example for the rest of humanity. We also have the capability to have that charactyer, motive and intention developed in us.
Ed, I am not assuming that Christ preexisted at all. Plus the difference between all those you mentioned and Christ is that Christ is our perfect example. they are not. I am not directed to be like an angel or Jeremiah ect.
Quote (Ed J @ April 21 2012,09:36) Quote (Ed J @ April 21 2012,09:07) Quote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,08:58) Nope not right.
I ask how does preexistence help me to have hope that I can be like Christ? How does it help me do that? If it is just so many words with no fruit what is the point in believing it?
Hi Martin,Could not the same be said about not believing in preexistence?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Martin,You still haven't answered this question?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I need you to clarify your question. You lost me.Quote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,09:44) Quote (Ed J @ April 21 2012,09:36) Quote (Ed J @ April 21 2012,09:07) Quote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,08:58) Nope not right.
I ask how does preexistence help me to have hope that I can be like Christ? How does it help me do that? If it is just so many words with no fruit what is the point in believing it?
Hi Martin,Could not the same be said about not believing in preexistence?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Martin,You still haven't answered this question?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I need you to clarify your question. You lost me.
How does not believing in preexistence help me to have hope that I can be like Christ? How does it help me do that?Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 21 2012,09:29) Quote (shem4name @ April 20 2012,16:27) If your doctrine does not help me to become like christ it is just an idle philosophy.
Suit yourself Martian. As for me, I will believe the scriptures whether or not I think they make it more possible for me to be like Jesus.
That is very sad. That shows that you are more interested in promoting or preserving your interpretation of the scriptures then you are in becoming like christ. Tell me what are you promoting or preserving them for? What is our conclusions of scripture for if not to help us become like Christ as God's plan demands? If you take your statement to the end conclusion you make the scriptures out to be an idle philosophy that produce nothing of benefit for humanity.Ed, There are two possibilities for a preexistence. Either Christ came to Earth with memories and capabilities not available to us which would deny our use as a perfect example and bring into question everything that he did – Did he do that as God or man-
OR
Christ came to Earth with no knowledge memory or power not availability to us, in which case we can use him as our example. this one does leave some rather big mysteries out there. Such as what happened to his memories and experiences from that prior life? Does he get those back after his death?
Personally I prefer the one with the least mysteries involved. However if you want to believe that Christ gave up his memories and power to come to Earth have at it. My point is that whatever happened, the Child called Jesus born to Mary had to be like us to be our example.
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