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So we can safely say and be in agreement angels cannot sin and all angels are simply messengers of God doing only what HE commands.
Looking again at II Pet 2:4, even though it says angels (heavenly hosts as confirmed thru a few commentaries), your faith however tells you these “angels” are prophets. Reading the passage, Peter is using a historical progression and starts with the “falling of angels” and their punishment, next the flood and the sparing of Noah, moves onto Sodom and Gomorrah and the sparing of Lot. God doesn’t spare judgment from the corrupt, but rescues the righteous from “temptations” is what I read in this section. Question, why would Peter call the prophets angels, why not just say prophets; why change the verbiage in verse 4 when he had no problem in verse 1 saying prophets? Unless the intent was to refer to the heavenly angels.
Upon digging deeper, the II Peter passage parallels Jude 1:6 (study notes) and says “And the angels who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling place, he has kept in eternal bonds under deep gloom for the judgment of the great day,” Does this sound like a reference to prophets? Do prophets keep to a domain, what place did they desert? No, the Jude passage, like the Peter passage, are speaking of heavenly angels.
The largest take away from this is they make the implication angels can sin; except reading the Tanakh (OT) we read the angels did what God told them to do, including the one called sa-tan. Which side of the bible do I accept? There are two choices with these passages; either Peter/Jude is right and angels can sin and your faith is wrong or your faith is right and angels cannot sin, making Peter/Jude wrong. Bit of a paradox isn’t it? Unfortunately this is where it seems the “twist” of religion comes in to justify a particular belief and/or whisk away an obvious contradiction; even when the words written can in no way be misinterpreted.
Hi DT,
My faith is based on the sum of all scripture and though commentaries might possibly provide some insight they also contain imaginations that produce contradictions that equate to total falsehoods. Commentaries often rely on the doctrines of men.
You are in error.
2 Peter 2 starts with,
1 But there were “false prophets” (“pseudoprophetes”/false prophet) also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
pseudoprophetes do not represent previous messengers of God who then sinned, they were never messengers of God, they have only been messengers of falsehoods.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the messengers that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment
Unlike the pseudoprophetes who were nothing but false prophets, the anggelos/messengers spoken of in verse 4 were initially messengers of God who then sinned. Peter is using different words providing appropriate distinguishment. We are being given a number of basis to which humans acted sinfully and unjustly with the message being that their punishment is still all the same.
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.
Please head over to biblehub and read the commentaries on 2 Pet 2:4.
I do agree commentators can and do inject some personal bias into their understanding; however, when there are multiple commentators who agree this passage is a reference to heavenly angels are we to ignore the teaching in favor of our personal religious understanding/bias?
The Peter and Jude passages, referencing heavenly angels, creates an issue of a sinning angel. Based on the Tanakh, angels can only do what God commands and don’t have “freewill.” Based on the words of Peter and Jude, the angels have “freewill” and can sin. Even Jesus makes the implication angels can sin when he speaks of an eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. This creates a problem; the OT and NT are misaligned.
Either the NT is right, making the Tanakh wrong or the Tanakh is right, making the NT wrong; and I’m of the inclination of the latter. When the Messiah’s of the Tanakh and NT differ in their purpose, that’s an issue; when the revered Paul is shown to be deceitful and a thief, I have a problem; when a book of an unknown author is placed into the NT that twists and corrupts the Tanakh, I rip it’s pages out; when people can’t agree on the contents of the NT that is supposedly “inspired of God”, it would seem then it’s not from God.
If you haven’t figured out, much has changed in the past few months in my walk and what I believe. I have walked away from “christianity” (don’t read I’ve walked away from HaShem/God) and as I read the NT without the goggles of religion clouding my vision I now see the errors within the pages. I don’t believe this deception is intentional today, I believe christianity is a product of speaking a lie long enough and it becoming truth. One can verify what they have been told is truth or not…freewill.
Hi DT,
I have no problem that within a chapter the writer uses, false prophets, false teachers, and messengers who sinned. The entire surrounding context tells you the subject is examples of sinful HUMANS and their fate.
Appears to me that both 2 Peter 2 and Jude 1 speak directly against the idea of sinful celestial angels.
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption.
We know that the angels of the LORD are saw-tawn/adversaries against man as they brought forth punishment, curses all by the direct command of the LORD. There are no celestial angels that are sinful bringing forth unjust calamity upon man, but self-righteous men would believe otherwise now wouldn’t they and they would speak evil of these angels accusing these angels of being false-accusers when in fact they do not bring “railing accusation against them before the Lord”.
Makes total sense that the whole doctrine of sinful wicked celestial angels originates from people believing that they were unjustly punished and as God is not unjust, then the belief is that these angels must be bad angels. The truth is that these angels are good and the people were not served injustice at all and so they are speaking that which they do not understand, they speak evil of dignities in their own self-righteousness.
I will have to speak to Jude later, I am out of time this morning.
Hi DT,
YOU: I do agree commentators can and do inject some personal bias into their understanding; however, when there are multiple commentators who agree this passage is a reference to heavenly angels are we to ignore the teaching in favor of our personal religious understanding/bias?
ME: Your comment here is rather baffling to me! So it seems to me what you are saying is that one should not really bother studying scripture for themselves, as it would be error anyway if we reached alternative conclusions for we must not favor our personal understanding over that of what the majority says. But yet I also recall you saying that people can’t even agree on what the NT teaches. Then you also say in the same post, “One can verify what they have been told is truth or not…freewill.” DT, make yourself make sense, seems like within the same post you completely contradicted yourself.
Both the OT and NT warn of false prophets and false beliefs. Multiple places in the NT it speaks on how the truth would be corrupted and was already being corrupted. Read the history of the forming of the Catholic Church to which main stream Christine doctrine was founded upon. Those who created the doctrine were pagan converts. Then study what the pagans believed and you might see how the “early church fathers” interpreted NT scripture through those previously held pagan beliefs, certainly not through the understanding of God from the OT or truths from the OT. Then research what those under Constantine did to those who opposed their doctrine, what they did to the Jews for Jesus that were in opposition. Further, what do we know about the Israelites, they constantly went after false gods and therein they took pagan ideas, where thus they took God’s truth and made it into lies creating their own doctrines, the book of Enoch is a prime example and the Pharisees with their morning hand washing ritual to cast out demons showed their corruption.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the messengers which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jude is giving all examples of humans in the above passage and he is speaking to examples we can read of from the OT.
The Lord saved Israel out of Egypt but destroyed those afterward who did not believe in Him, we know that well. But what about these messengers that kept not their first estate? We read of them in Jeremiah 23 where it also mentions Sodom and Gomorrah.
Jeremiah 23:11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD. 13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. 15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land. 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
I will speak to verse 9 in my next post.
You sure do like to read between the lines don’t you? No where did I say not to study; but to self study and rely on your own conclusions and call them truth without confirmation, can get you into trouble. One can make anything say whatever they want it and call it truth (think of the over 30,000 different religions worldwide today). What I have said along is to verify what you have been told is truth and you claiming “angels” is a reference to “false prophets” is absolutely wrong; not because I say so, but because the text doesn’t support it.
TANGENT WARNING: [Am I in error for saying the Jesus isn’t the Messiah, because the majority says he is? According to you I am; but you having a minority view that doesn’t align with the text or the majority, makes you correct?!? I have asked for proof the Jesus did all that was prophesied about the Messiah and I get an unsubstantiated claim “he’ll do it when he returns.” Nowhere in the Tanakh does it ever speak of the Messiah coming twice, first time claiming to be the Messiah, not doing what God said he was to accomplish, leave, and then return a second time to accomplish what was prophesied about him and this is what the majority of christians believe is truth. BUT, don’t know why!]
The plain word understanding is “heavenly angels”; you called angels false prophets and I pointed out commentaries also support it’s a reference as “heavenly angels”; but somehow I’m being contradictory?!? I needed no commentary to tell me the reference in both passages spoke of “heavenly angels.” I can safely say if you asked anyone who is being referenced, you will get “heavenly angels” as the response.
The reality is these passages in Jude 6 and II Pet 2:4 conflict with your belief angels can only do as God commands so you’ve made up angels being a reference to false prophets. Explain what “domain” a false prophet could have left, what “dwelling place” was their own, and what “everlasting bonds” are they in until judgment?
What does Jer 23:11-16 have to do with angels being “false prophets”?
Can’t wait for your explanation of Jude verse 9; please don’t make we wait another seven months…
The angels doing only God’s will brings up another interesting thought; think about the story of the Jesus casting “legions” into the herd of pigs who then ran into the water and drowned. Wouldn’t the Jesus be responsible for the destruction of personal property and animal cruelty? Why was he in a Gentile region and why, after performing this “miracle”, did the people begged him to leave? Why would they beg the Jesus to leave after performing a great “miracle” on the possessed men, why didn’t they want to know more, two violent possessed men are now gentle and peaceful? Could it be they begged the Jesus to leave because he destroyed their food supply and didn’t want to lose anymore?
One must also consider the herdsman tending the hogs, most likely they were hired hands to manage and keep them safe. As the hired hands, they would have been responsible for any harm that would have come to the animals; makes one wonder what happened to them since the entire herd was drowned. What explanation do these herdsman give for why the entire herd is dead?
Thinking aloud.
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