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To all! I have found this article very interesting, that my Husband wrote for His New Book soon to be published.
The Earth
Gen. 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
Stop right there, and look at this verse for a moment, think about what it is saying. This very first verse of the bible is stating a fact; it is not describing the account of that creation. The fact is that God did create heaven and earth, what is not a fact is, that it happened only 6000 years ago. Reading the very next verse should make us wonder.
v. 2 “And the earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep…”
Why would God create the earth in such a chaotic state, knowing He was about to create plants, trees, animals and man on it? Also, if this was what the earth looked like when God created it, would the angels really have shouted for joy?
Job 38:4 “Where wast thou when I laid the foundation of the earth?…”
v. 7 “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”
It would also give us reason to wonder what some of the other scriptures mean, for instant, speaking of Lucifer, who became Satan.
Is. 14:13 “For thou hast said in thy heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.”
From where was Satan ascending?
v. 12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nation!”
On what ground did he fall back down? What did Jesus mean when he said?
Luke 10:18 “And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.”
When did Jesus see Satan fall from heaven? Satan is not his real name, it is what he became, an adversary, his name was Lucifer, meaning, bringer of light, truth. He was perfect in every way, when God created him.
Ez. 28:13 “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering…”
v. 14 “Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set they so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.”
v. 15 “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created…”
And yet, the bible also teaches that Satan was a murderer from the beginning.
John 8:44 “Ye are of you father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning…”
Who is wrong, Ezekiel or John? Neither, read the rest of,
Ez. 28:15 “…till iniquity was found in thee.”
Lucifer was created perfect until something happened; he became jealous of God, that was the beginning of him becoming Satan. God created a beautiful earth until something happened and it became void and empty. We should learn from this that beginning is not what we have thought of it to say. Was not Satan on this earth when God created man? What about scientific facts? Science may not believe in creation, but should we then return the favor and say, anything you teach we wont believe either? If the earth was only 6000 years old, how could you possibly explain the geography or geology of
this planet? Science may be wrong in believing in evolution, but through science we all have learned a great deal.
We have learned that the earth is not flat.
We have learned that the sun does not revolve around the earth.
We have learned that the earth crust moves on tectonic plates, that where they collide they form huge mountain ranges over millions of years. We have found huge deposits of coal, gas and oil, deep under ground and under the sea; are we to assume that God put them there because he knew we would need them for our cars and airplanes, so we can pollute the environment? What are coal, gas and oil? How are they formed? They are our resources of fuel and energy. They are formed from decaying organic matter over 100s of millions of years, under enormous pressure and heat. To ignore these truths, is no different than for science to ignore God’s truth.
So then, what did happen in Gen. 1:1? The bible does in fact tells us.
Gen. 1:2 “…And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”
This brings to mind a scripture that practically explains what happened.
Ps. 104:30 “Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.”
Renewing the face of the earth is what I believe God did in Genesis. And here are more reasons why I believe that.
When God created grass, herbs and fruit trees on the third day, he created them after their kind. On the fifth day he created creatures that move in the waters, and winged fowl, after their kind. And finally on the sixth day, the earth brought forth all the living things, creeping things, cattle, and beasts, all after his kind. What does, after their kind, mean? It is really very simple to understand, when you say after, there had to be something before. Man was created in the image of God, not after his kind, his kind had not existed before. Also, after their kind does not mean the same size or shape, it refers to that particular group, whether they be fish, or birds, or beats, etc. Fossils and skeletons are undeniable proof that God had created animals much larger then, as now. Why did God create all those animals so big? Well, I think one reason could be, there were no humans around that would feel threatened by them. How then did all life become extinct, and the earth void and empty? Let me start from the beginning, and this is what I believe has happened.
God did in fact create a beautiful earth, with all kinds of vegetation, trees and animals on it, which did caused the angels to shout for joy, Job 38:4+7. Angels were created to live forever, not being dependent on food or water or air. God also gave them a free will to make choices. To see if the angels were loyal and obedient to him, he had to test them, and this earth became the proving ground. Lucifer, God’s masterpiece of creation was put in charge. There are no specifics given in the bible, as to what his duties were, but his name, Lucifer, is somewhat revealing, “bringer of light”. Light is symbolic for truth; Jesus said he was the light of the world, John 8:12. Jesus brought us the light that leads to everlasting life, Lucifer was to do the same to the angels, teach them God’s way. While hear on earth, administering his responsibilities, something happened to him, he became jealous of God, he felt he should be worshiped. Over time, the bible does not say how long, he convinced himself that he could overthrow God. He revealed his plan to the angels, and convinced a third of them to follow him in his rebellion.
Rev. 12:4 “And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth…”
Again, the bible does not say how long it took Satan to convince the angels to follow him, but then, God had not created time yet.
Satan’s rebellion failed, no surprise. It was this rebellion that caused the decay and destruction of this Planet. God would not allow Satan and his demons to exist on a beautiful planet. This earth had become his domain, his kingdom. God withdrew his Spirit that upholds all things, from this earth.
Heb. 1:3 “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power…”
When God created Adam and Eve, he put them in a beautiful garden; it became their testing ground, when they rebelled, they were thrown out of that garden. This entire period of the Gospel has been a testing period for the saints, to see who endures to the end, and is worthy to rule with Christ for a thousand years. At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be loosed for a little while to give mankind a final test, all those who fail will be d
estroyed forever, all those who pass will live forever.
Could a meteor or asteroid have hit the earth and helped in the destruction? Possibly, it really doesn’t matter.
God would allow this planet to shape itself into what he wanted for us, and that may very well have taken billions of years. He then renewed the face of the earth, and created animals more our size. This is what I believe Gen. 1:1 teaches.
You may want to think about this for a while, but it makes perfect sense to me.Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi Mrs.
That makes an interesting theory and story. But it stretches the scriptures a little.
I willl have to read it again to better absorb some of the thinking.I don't know if you retyped this or copied and pasted, but if this is part of a book
you may need to have someone proofread it for you.
Things like using “hear” when you meant here. And “meteor hid” instead of hit should be corrected.Thanks for letting us take a look at your husbands thoughts.
Tim
Timothy! Thank you for your reply, and yes the manuscript will be proofread. It will take another month or two before the Book is ready.
Peace and Love Mrs.theodorej! It will take another Month or so before the Book is done. I will post the # then. Thank you for your intrest.
Peace and Love Mrs.Good Morning Mrs, hope you and your husband are doing well.
Thanks for sharing this. Obviously, knowing my stance on fallen angels, I have many issues with your husbands ideas.
I think it is fun to share our thoughts that go beyond what is revealed to us in the bible. I too have been thinking a little bit as to what went on with the earth prior to our beginning.
Your husband said,”There are no specifics given in the bible, as to what his duties were, but his name, Lucifer, is somewhat revealing, “bringer of light”. Light is symbolic for truth; Jesus said he was the light of the world, John 8:12. Jesus brought us the light that leads to everlasting life, Lucifer was to do the same to the angels, teach them God’s way.”
It seems to me that your husband has forgotten that Yah foreknows about the things which He creates. Yeshua's name was given to him for what Yah knew he would be. Don't you think that if Yah knew that His perfect angel was going to fall he would have not given him such a name? How can your husband say that Lucifer was to do the same as Yeshua, teach God's way, if Yah knew that he would do the opposite? Sorry, but it makes absolutely no sense to me. If Yah foreknows, then how can he say that Lucifer was suppose to teach God's way?
I really wish your husband would have responded to my posts regarding Isaiah and the word Lucifer. The doctrine he puts forth clearly IMO is a product of bad speculation added to worse speculation. I would really like to know how exactly he works around the corrected error of the once deceptive translation of the word Lucifer.
Never once does Isaiah mention a fallen messenger of God.
12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
Your husband is taking the scripture and giving it a double meaning, he believes the scripture is not only talking about a man, but the man also represents a jealous angel. So what you have with your husbands book is not biblical truth but speculation from the get go.
It cannot be disputed that Isaiah 14 is talking first and foremost about a man, therefore when it says that the King of Babylon fell from heaven this could not mean a literal fall, I'm quite certain sky diving had not been invented yet.
13:11 I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
14:11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.
13 You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.”
So because the King was arrogant, proud and evil, thinking he could raise his throne in likeness to God, Yah brought him down to destroy and humble him.
So where in Isaiah do we have the evidence to show that the King also represents someone else? There is none.
Your husband follows the RCC and takes misinterpreted scriptures throughout the bible, adds speculation and then uses them to force dual meaning into Isaiah.
I mean your husband no disrespect, but I find this section of his writing confusing, it seems to jump all over the place. Did you bring different pieces together, or is this just one piece of the original book?
This part is extremely confusing to me,
“Renewing the face of the earth is what I believe God did in Genesis. And hear are more reasons why I believe that.
When God created grass, herbs and fruit trees on the third day, he created them after their kind. On the fifth day he created creatures that move in the waters, and winged fowl, after their kind. And finally on the sixth day, the earth brought forth all the living things, creeping things, cattle, and beasts, all after his kind. What does, after their kind, mean? It is really very simple to understand, when you say after, there had to be something before. Man was created in the image of God, not after his kind, his kind had not existed before. Also, after their kind does not mean the same size or shape, it refers to that particular group, whether they be fish, or birds, or beats, etc. Fossils and skeletons are undeniable proof that God had created animals much larger then, as now. Why did God create all those animals so big? Well, I think one reason could be, there were no humans around that would feel threatened by them. How then did all life become extinct, and the earth void and empty?“We have dominion over the animals not because of our size, but because of our brains. Everything that Yah made produces after their own kind. An elephant cannot produce an offspring with a bear, and a human cannot produce an offspring with a cow. What else is there to read into from Genesis, “let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds”? Man was created in the likeness of Yah, but obviously we reproduce through our own kind.
Your husband said, “Angels were created to live forever, not being dependent on food or water or air. God also gave them a free will to make choices. To see if the angels were loyal and obedient to him, he had to test them, and this earth became the proving ground. Lucifer, God’s masterpiece of creation was put in charge.”
How can he say Lucifer was God's masterpiece? That is absurd, unless you don't believe Yah has foreknowledge of His creation. From what we know of how Yah works with humans, it is not about God seeing how things are going to work out, it is about Yah taking a creature that holds intelligent possibilities and molding and refining them into righteous people. The process to go from ignorance into wisdom takes testing, its not about testing to see what will happen, Yah knows what will be. The testing is to create an outcome.
So if Yah put Lucifer on earth to test him, then what sort of work is Yah doing with Lucifer now? Man is in a continuing state of discipline and even though many people don't know it, their conscience is learning many things that in due time Yah will make known. Did Yah just give up on Lucifer? What was the reason for Him to test him? There is no evidence in the bible that Yah uses fallen angels to test us, is this the reason you and your husband believe Yah put him on earth, so he could tempt mankind?
There is something about the beginning of Genesis and science that does make us wonder about what was going on with earth before. Like I have said before, Yeshua tells us that we will be like the angels never to die anymore. So at one point then aren't we being told that angels could die? The lesson in the bible is that sin=death. Angels play a huge role in what goes on in earth, since Genesis began. They carry out Yah's work for Him. I would assume that Yah has a lot of trust that they will do what he says. I believe as some of you already know, that there is a possibility that maybe the angels inhabited the earth before we did, and that they went through a similar life as we are now. I believe that Yah's plan to make a United Family includes not only humans but the angels as well. Creating the angels and making them righteous was the first part of his plan. The angels that were made righteous were given immortality and the honor to assist God with the furthering of His plan. The others are dead until the resurrection and period of judgment.
I would really appreciate it if you guys would read through my fallen angel posts and address them?
Looking forward to hearing from you, Jodi
Jodi!
Thank you for your opinion. Please read the article again. Satan is the God of this world and He was the one that wanted to give all to Jesus if Jesus would fall down and worship Him. That is what became of Lucifer He became Satan.
Mr.Quote (seek and you will find @ May 09 2008,11:23) Jodi!
Thank you for your opinion. Please read the article again. Satan is the God of this world and He was the one that wanted to give all to Jesus if Jesus would fall down and worship Him. That is what became of Lucifer He became Satan.
Mr.
With all due respect Mr., I read it twice last night and three times this morning. I doubt reading it a sixth time will cause me to see things the way you do. Have you read my posts in the fallen angel thread yet? I hope you take the time to.Mr 8:33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”
If 'Satan' meant a fallen angel, and not simply an adversary to YHWH, then why does Yeshua tell Peter he is Satan because he has in mind the THINGS OF MEN? Wouldn't Peter have in mind the things of sinful angels if Yeshua was calling him a fallen angel?
Ah, Yeshua calls Peter satan, because satan means adversary, and when you have the things of men in mind then you are not having the things of God in mind, thus you are a human adversary to Yah, and thus a satan to Yah.
Is it your understanding Mr., that some times satan means a fallen angel and other times it simply means an adversary? If this is the case how do you know when which one is which, and which ones refer to the fallen angel and which ones don't?
John 12:31Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
Mt 18:7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the MAN through whom they come!
Ro 5:12 – Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–
Php 3:19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.
What is the adversary to Yah? In all cases it represents sin. Human sin is personified as the devil and satan in the bible.
Joh 7:34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
Ro 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
Ro 7:25 – Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Mr., we are never told that the god of this world is Lucifer a fallen angel. The bible clearly shows that our god, our master is sin. Yeshua through Yah's Spirit overcame sin, and thus he destroyed the devil. You don't find it odd with your belief that Yeshua was able to destroy a supernatural being by remaining sinless and dying? Through the act of dying, Yeshua killed Lucifer? That's absurd.
Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death–that is, the devil—
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law—indeed it cannot,
Mind on the flesh is death
Power of death is the devilIs it not clear that the devil is the mind when it is set on the flesh?
James 1:14 But one is tempted by one's own desire, being lured and enticed by it; 15 then, when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and that sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death.
Yeshua's tempter is NOT said to be a fallen angel that is pure speculation.
We know from the bible that men in positions of authority have abused that authority to go after fleshly desires. Knowing that in the Gospels the word Satan is attributed to men, and never once attributed as being a fallen angel, I believe it is safer and more reasonable to assume that the Satan tempting Yeshua was a man who wanted to use Yeshua for his own gain.
Mr., how is it that you still find it o.k. to use the word Lucifer, when it has been corrected because it was a false and deceptive translation?
Jodi
Who corrected it? and what name do you suggest we use instead of “Lucifer”?
IM4Truth, or Mr., if you prefer.Quote (seek and you will find @ May 10 2008,16:02) Jodi
Who corrected it? and what name do you suggest we use instead of “Lucifer”?
IM4Truth, or Mr., if you prefer.
NKJ 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, F17 son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!YLT 14:12 How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations.
NAS 14:12 “How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
NLT 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world.
NRS 14:12 How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
GNT 14:12 King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven! In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground.
CJB 14:12 “How did you come to fall from the heavens, morning star, son of the dawn? How did you come to be cut to the ground, conqueror of nations?
Morning star, or day star represented the planet Venus, so when the Hebrew was translated in Latin, it read Lucifer, because Lucifer represents Venus in Latin.
I don't really have a problem with the word Lucifer so long as it refers to the planet Venus, and not as a proper name for an angel. I hope you are now willing to admit that the Latin word Lucifer does not belong in an English bible translated from the Hebrew.
Greetings Jodi…..In the bible it is mentioned on several occasions that, satan,the devil or any other form of identification attributed to him has in fact manefested himself eg.in the garden as a serpent and so on….If we can agree that although he is a spirit by nature he has the ability to manefest himself in the flesh if need be…My question to you would be, what is his purpose,if not to deceive,manipulate the minds of men and also to kill…My question is based on your premise that there are no fallen angels that are influencing the hearts and minds of men,just the evil nature that is man..
Thedorej It comes to mind when I read on the Internet about Lucifer and how they want to do away with Satan and say evil is in our minds, that we are in the end times and many Antichrist will come and have come. The New age religion is teaching just that. So Brethren watch out. Satan is real, He tempted Jesus and He temps us. Satan is the God of this world, He offered it to Jesus, if Jesus would bow down and worship him. He is a real being, not in our minds. He can put evil in our mind if we let him.
That too is why I say please do not argue with each other by calling each other names. Draw close to Christ and let the love of God be present in your bones.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (Jodi @ May 10 2008,04:47) So what you have with your husbands book is not biblical truth but speculation from the get go.
Jodi,Isn't “speculation” where most theories are born, including yours and those of whom write the gazillion religious commentaries out there?
I always get a bit of a charge out of the phrase, “Biblical truth”. Sis, you handle a form of truth that appeals to you. Obviously, Mr. likes another brand……
Biblical truth cannot be pinned down.
Hey Jodi, have you now joined the Christadelphians? Just curious, their beliefs are very close to yours regarding satan and the angels. I am very close to their beliefs.
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 13 2008,09:56) Quote (Jodi @ May 10 2008,04:47) So what you have with your husbands book is not biblical truth but speculation from the get go.
Jodi,Isn't “speculation” where most theories are born, including yours and those of whom write the gazillion religious commentaries out there?
I always get a bit of a charge out of the phrase, “Biblical truth”. Sis, you handle a form of truth that appeals to you. Obviously, Mr. likes another brand……
Biblical truth cannot be pinned down.
Hey Jodi, have you now joined the Christadelphians? Just curious, their beliefs are very close to yours regarding satan and the angels. I am very close to their beliefs.
Hi Mandy,Hope you had a great Mom's day and a nice trip to SCal.
We all have speculations your right, and I have my own that is definitely true. When I debate my approach is that my understanding makes better sense with the given scriptures, then others. Like I have said before, we all have different views and understandings that come from our different experiences and our own lives. I like to debate with people because they can give me a different perspective that could either further verify what I have come to believe as truth or it could change it altogether. You have said before what is clear to one person is not so clear to others. Unless it is clear to all then it really isn't clear is it. I hope I don't come off as if I believe that I am some sort of authority on the truth. Maybe I should attach more IMO's to my posts.
Biblical truth unto man is only an opinion. Thanks for keeping things real Mandy. We definitely need you around here.
I have not joined the Christadelphians, nor do I believe I will. They have some strange beliefs. You know that they don't believe that all people will be resurrected? I would have to go back to some of their pamphlets to remember details, but a lot of what they believe about Yeshua and his second coming and the fate of people I don't agree with. Some of it I kind of recall as being a little bothersome to me.
I think for the most part I have given up on trying to find a church. I have been asking God to unite me with people around me, family and friends with the study of His word and a love for the truth. So far this isn't being answered. Most people don't even want to talk about God or the bible. I think they'd rather watch reality t.v.! So I will just continue to be patient.
Having been on this forum for a little while and contributed quite a bit, I can say we all have some pretty “strange beliefs”
I beginning to think that strange=normal! I sort of like that a lot. 
I agree it's hard to find a church and/or fellowship. Sometimes my heart just aches for church.
I was thinking during our vacation how I have robbed my children of church. Sure, they attend VBS during the summer and they attend Wed. nights when we are not invovled in baseball, but they do not have the same upbrining as I enjoyed. Sometimes I wonder if that is a huge disservice to them? Sometimes I wonder if it is a gift? I haven't decided yet. All I know is that I am remaining patient as well. This board helps fill in the gaps for me.
Press on sis,
MandyHey Mandy,
I'll agree with you on that strange= normal thing. I'll also add that I think being a dork= being cool! We like to be big dorks in my family. I think dorks have more fun!
Press on to you too Sis,
Jodi
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