- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (AndrewAD @ Oct. 03 2012,15:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 03 2012,02:53) Quote (AndrewAD @ Sep. 30 2012,19:04) Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8
NASB ©
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.NET ©
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.NRSV ©
and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.Andrew, the above versions have translated 13:8 correctly. You can read Revelation 17:8 for confirmation.
Hey Mike,I've noticed most of the newer translations have it worded that way while most of the older versions have the other while the NASB has it the newer way with or-the older way- in the footnote.Either way I believe it means the same since it's the Lambs book…………..
Andrew,Did you read Rev 17:8 as I suggested?
The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast………..
The problem is often that the original languages of the scriptures leave room for interpretation. I'll give you a makeshift example of Hebrews 1:8…………..
If the Greek words said: god throne of you forever, then we have to figure out if it means “God is your throne forever”, or “God, your throne is forever”.
I don't think that believing the wrong interpretation of Rev 13:8 will prohibit anyone from entering into eternal life, but we do know that very similar words are used in 17:8, where there is no “guess-work” involved.
That, coupled with the fact that Jesus WASN'T slain from the foundation of the world, but was slain in 33 AD, leans me toward the translations I've quoted. He couldn't come to the earth as a sacrificial lamb if he had already been sacrificed a long time before that.
(Although, there are many examples of God speaking of things that WILL BE as if they had ALREADY HAPPENED.)
Anyway, I enjoy reading your posts and seeing your God-given common sense at work.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,03:14) Andrew, (Although, there are many examples of God speaking of things that WILL BE as if they had ALREADY HAPPENED.)
Hi Mike,Yes, like Jesus being called born “Christ” when it actually happened A-F-T-E-R his baptism.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (AndrewAD @ Oct. 03 2012,18:47) If I understand the trinity doctrine correctly they do teach Jesus was 100% God and 100% man at the same time on earth and in heaven right?
Right, but then, when confronted with the scriptures that teach of Jesus praying to, obeying, and worshiping his and our God, they turn the tables and say, Well, Jesus was an emptied version of his former self when he did these things, and when he said the Father was greater than him..I say they can't have it both ways. They can't say he was 100% God Almighty on earth, but ALSO “a lesser version” of God Almighty on earth. It must be one or the other.
Quote (AndrewAD @ Oct. 03 2012,18:47) And if there are three equal persons(gods) that make one God,then where or how do they get their rank? I've even heard and read that the three had a council in heaven and decided who would be who.
This kind of stuff is required by those who believe in the absurd – as a way of illogically explaining the absurd thing they believe.If they had a council and decided one would play the role of “Son”, what does the word “begotten” mean in the case of Jesus?
What ever happened to just believing what the scriptures teach? We are taught in scripture, over and over, that there exists but ONE Most High God, who created the heavens and the earth, and everything in them. We are taught that this One has a Son named Jesus. It stands to reason then, that if Jesus does not have a son named Jesus, he can't possibly be the One who created the heavens and the earth, and everything in them.
Nor is it logical to believe that the Son OF our one Almighty God could also BE the very Almighty God he is the Son OF.
Quote (AndrewAD @ Oct. 03 2012,18:47) In my studies on the trinity I haven't heard or read role playing brought up but these are my own thoughts.
Nor have I read of it until your earlier posts to Kathi………… but your analogy does fit the bill – the “playbill” if you like.
Quote (AndrewAD @ Oct. 03 2012,18:47) So when Jesus says in Mk10:6 God made them male and female,he could have just as well said I made them male and female.
Then in the parallel passage of Mat 19:4 he says He made them male and female which seems to exclude himself and point to another.
In Marks passage it could be said that when he said God made them he was really including himself too,but in Matthews passage how can he honestly say “He” made them and still be the God that did it……….
That, my friend, is a brilliant point to consider. I'll take your point and run a little further with it:Mark 10:6 NET Bible ©
But from the beginning of creation he 1 made them male and female.Their footnote #1 says:
Most mss have ὁ θεός (“God”) as the explicit subject of ἐποίησεν (“he made”), while the most important witnesses, along with a few others, lack ὁ θεός (“God”).They go on with greater detail, which you can read here (by clicking on the #1 in the first translation), but then conclude by saying:
Thus, both on internal and external grounds, the most probable wording of the original text here lacked ὁ θεός.
It seems that both Mark 10:6 and Matthew 19:4 most likely had Jesus saying “HE created them male and female” originally.
Kathi, what do you think? Jesus said “HE made them male and female”. Do you suppose he really meant “WE“?
(I'll add that to my list of scriptures that preclude Jesus from being the Creator. )Quote (AndrewAD @ Oct. 03 2012,18:47) Does it seem to you that trinitarianism does make God an actor like modalism does only in a different way? or am I missing something? The examples could go on and on but I'm interested to know your thoughts on this.
The examples most assuredly DO go on and on – all throughout scripture.There is a writing on the Trinity Doctrine by t8, the owner of this site, which you can find somewhere on the home page. In that writing, he does a wonderful job of bringing to the forefront many of those examples. It is a good read if you ever get the chance.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 04 2012,09:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 02 2012,10:36) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 30 2012,13:39) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) And if we were told that the First Adam has existed from eternity, would this mean the Second Adam – the one the first Adam begot at some time – has also existed from eternity? If the first Adam existed from eternity, then he would be God. If the second Adam was the son of the first Adam and had the exact nature as the first Adam, then the son would have existed from eternity also and be God also but as a son eternally existing within the first Adam.
If they both existed from eternity, then we wouldn't be able to even use the terms, “FIRST Adam” and “SECOND Adam” – for they would have BOTH been the “FIRST Adams”. They would have BOTH existed from the same time, making them BOTH the “first”.The word “second” means that one of them began his existence AFTER the “first” one. The fact that one came BEFORE the other is also implied by the terms “father”, “son”, and “begotten”.
THINK Mike
Adam means man. Was Jesus a man before He came as a man?
Now you are moving away from the analogy, Kathi. The analogy was if the person Adam was from eternity, would it mean that the SECOND Adam (the one the first Adam brought forth into existence) was ALSO from eternity – even though he was BROUGHT FORTH by the first Adam?And my points remain the same: You couldn't even use the word “second” if they both existed from the same time. Nor could you logically use the words “father”, “son”, or “begotten”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,03:57) Quote (AndrewAD @ Oct. 03 2012,18:47) If I understand the trinity doctrine correctly they do teach Jesus was 100% God and 100% man at the same time on earth and in heaven right?
Right, but then, when confronted with the scriptures that teach of Jesus praying to, obeying, and worshiping his and our God, they turn the tables and say, Well, Jesus was an emptied version of his former self when he did these things, and when he said the Father was greater than him..I say they can't have it both ways. They can't say he was 100% God Almighty on earth, but ALSO “a lesser version” of God Almighty on earth. It must be one or the other.
Hi Mike,Jesus was “a fractal” of God – not 'a lesser version' of God.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Lightenup @ Oct. 04 2012,09:52) Actually this has been taught in the Bible and the early church. What has changed is terminology and the twisting of truth has misconstrued the truth.
TWO Most High Gods are taught in the Bible?
You are correct that “the twisting of truth has misconstrued the truth”.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 04 2012,09:52) Mike will say things like this in the quote.
Was I inaccurate to say that you believe in and worship TWO, completely individual Almighty Gods?Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 04 2012,11:03) Jesus was “a fractal” of God – not 'a lesser version' of God.
No Ed,Jesus was the Son of God – from the moment God brought him into existence before the ages, to the time he was on earth, and even unto today.
He is, was, and will always remain the Son of God – not a “fractal of God”.
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 04 2012,10:31) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,03:14) Andrew, (Although, there are many examples of God speaking of things that WILL BE as if they had ALREADY HAPPENED.)
Hi Mike,Yes, like Jesus being called born “Christ” when it actually happened A-F-T-E-R his baptism.
25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:29 “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you now dismiss your servant in peace.
30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31 which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles
and for glory to your people Israel.”Now I ask you Ed, was Simeon allowed to see the Lord's Christ before he died, as promised through the Holy Spirit? YES or NO?
Mike,
You were only speaking a half truth. You leave out the part about the perfect unity as one Most High authority/Godhead. Please stop telling people what I believe because you only present half truths.Also Ed:
Luke 2:11
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.The word “is” was written in the Greek PRESENT tense, not the FUTURE tense.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 04 2012,11:19) Mike,
You were only speaking a half truth. You leave out the part about the perfect unity as one Most High authority/Godhead. Please stop telling people what I believe because you only present half truths.
Kathi,I ask you once again:
Did I speak accurately when I told Andrew that you believe in and worship TWO Almighty Gods? YES or NO?
Also Ed:
Matthew 2
2 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews?4 When he had called together all the people’s chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born. 5 “In Bethlehem in Judea,” they replied……….
Was Jesus “in Bethlehem” when he was baptised?
Ed, you must learn to distinguish between GOD calling something that will be as if it already was, and MEN saying it like it is.
Jesus was born the Christ and the King of the Jews.
Mike,
When you leave out an important part, then that is not completely accurate. So, no, you were not completely accurate only partially accurate. Please refrain from telling others what I believe. I have to go to private discussions to get away from your attempt to belittle and confuse the person I am discussing with. Leave me alone! Stop interrupting my conversation with another person. Please!!!Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 04 2012,09:52) Do you know of a mightier Father?
Do you know of a mightier Son?
If not, is the Father the mightiest Father, the Almighty Father?
Is the Son the mightiest Son, the Almighty Son?
Do YOU know of a mightier who was a liar and a manslayer from the beginning?If not, then Satan is ALSO an Almighty God in his own right.
So now, using YOUR logic, there are THREE Almighty Gods, right Kathi?
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 04 2012,11:34) Mike,
When you leave out an important part, then that is not completely accurate. So, no, you were not completely accurate only partially accurate. Please refrain from telling others what I believe. I have to go to private discussions to get away from your attempt to belittle and confuse the person I am discussing with. Leave me alone! Stop interrupting my conversation with another person. Please!!!
Kathi,Don't get mad at me just because YOU are afraid to admit that you preach TWO Almighty Gods. I'm just calling it like you've preached it to me.
satan may be the god of you Mike, but not of me. Count how you want but I have nothing to do with your logic.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,04:17) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 04 2012,10:31) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,03:14) Andrew, (Although, there are many examples of God speaking of things that WILL BE as if they had ALREADY HAPPENED.)
Hi Mike,Yes, like Jesus being called born “Christ” when it actually happened A-F-T-E-R his baptism.
25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:29 “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you now dismiss your servant in peace.
30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31 which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles
and for glory to your people Israel.”Now I ask you Ed, was Simeon allowed to see the Lord's Christ before he died, as promised through the Holy Spirit? YES or NO?
Hi Mike,Simeon saw Jesus, who was to become “The Christ” at his baptism.
Christ means “anointed of God” – when was Jesus anointed of God?1. At Birth
2. At his baptism
3. Other …(if other please explain)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2012,04:20) Also Ed: Luke 2:11
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.The word “is” was written in the Greek PRESENT tense, not the FUTURE tense.
Hi Mike,Likewise did Jesus do this saving at his birth or at his death burial and resurrection?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
