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Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,01:33) If it was common sense that a person pre-exists his conception, then Gene and Kerwin would have no problem with it.
You should know that common sense isn't as common as its name suggests.
It only takes common sense to understand that the words, “glorify me now with the glory I HAD before the world began” describe someone asking for the RETURN of a previous glory HE HAD before the world began, right?
Yet Gene and Kerwin have a problem with that.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,01:37) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2013,08:45) Mike? Quote #1 is not only lacking common sense, but also lacks a single shred of scriptural support. You, who speak frequently about the pre-existence of Christ now don't believe He existed before conception? No scriptural support you say??
Bump for Mike.
Jesus did not exist AS A HUMAN until he was conceived as a human, right?Yet you try to tell us (without a shred of scriptural support, btw) that he existed as a spirit being before he was conceived as a spirit being. THIS is the claim for which I'm asking for scriptual support. Of course you already knew that, right?
There are many scriptures that attest to his existence before being conceived as a human being in the womb of Mary. WHERE are the scriptures attesting to the claim that he existed before being begotten as God's Son?
Mike,
Quote Yet you try to tell us (without a shred of scriptural support, btw) that he existed as a spirit being before he was conceived as a spirit being. THIS is the claim for which I'm asking for scriptual support. No that is not what I am trying to tell you. I am saying that He existed as a spirit being before He was begotten before the ages. I have shown you that He was the eternal life that was with the Father from 1 John 1.
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2013,19:19) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,01:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2013,17:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2013,07:03) It doesn't make sense with Moses, but IT DOES make sense with Christ ……………..
Why Kathi? Why would it be OBVIOUS that one particular servant of God could not be “God over all”, but not just as obvious that the other servant of God could not be “God over all”?Both servants of Jehovah are called gods in scripture. Both did many miracles, signs, and wonders. God's people have been baptized into both of their names.
So why one servant of God, and not the other?
Kathi, t8 made a very good point about this. We should be able to compare this “problem verse” with all the other words of Paul, when speaking about his God the Father, or his Lord Jesus Christ.
Over and over Paul makes it abundantly clear that the Father is his God, while Jesus is the one his God made Lord over him.
The following is just one of the MANY times Paul clearly distinguishes Jesus as someone other than, and lesser than his God, the Father:
Acts 13
16 Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: “Men of Israel and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me! 17 The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers………….22 After removing Saul, he made David their king.
23 From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.”
Are you able to see that Paul didn't confuse Jesus with his and our God?
Jesus Greater Than Moses
Agreed. And God is greater than Jesus, right?Your answer doesn't explain how any SERVANT OF God could be “God over all”.
Also, please tell me who the God of the people of Israel is – according to Acts 13:17, as quoted above.
Then tell me, according to verse 23, if Jesus IS that God of the people of Israel – or someone OTHER THAN that God – someone who that God SENT.
YHVH is the God of Israel, the God of gods and the Lord of lords. Jesus is the Lord of lords.
Deut. 10:17Quote (t8 @ Feb. 26 2013,04:05) We teach that Jesus came from God.
Kathi teaches that Jesus is God.John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.Jesus is with us Kathi.
We also teach that the Father is God and God made Jesus Lord.
Kathi teaches that Jesus is God and Lord and the Father is too.1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Paul is with us Kathi.
We teach that Jesus is given revelation from God and only says what he hears his God saying.
You believe that Jesus is God.Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,John is with us Kathi.
Jesus, Paul, and John teach what we teach.
You teach against them all.
You need to examine your doctrine and life closely Kathi.
Do not harden your heart.
Kathi teaches that Jesus is God and Lord and the Father is too.
Yep! I'm right there with Thomas, the disciple of the Lord Jesus, His Lord and God.I'm also in agreement with John who tells us that the Word was with God and the Word was God; and that the begotten God explains the invisible God…that's TWO!
I'm also in agreement with Luke who wrote in Acts:
“Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.”I'm in agreement with Paul who wrote in Romans:
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
And on and on.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 27 2013,09:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2013,19:19) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,01:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2013,17:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2013,07:03) It doesn't make sense with Moses, but IT DOES make sense with Christ ……………..
Why Kathi? Why would it be OBVIOUS that one particular servant of God could not be “God over all”, but not just as obvious that the other servant of God could not be “God over all”?Both servants of Jehovah are called gods in scripture. Both did many miracles, signs, and wonders. God's people have been baptized into both of their names.
So why one servant of God, and not the other?
Kathi, t8 made a very good point about this. We should be able to compare this “problem verse” with all the other words of Paul, when speaking about his God the Father, or his Lord Jesus Christ.
Over and over Paul makes it abundantly clear that the Father is his God, while Jesus is the one his God made Lord over him.
The following is just one of the MANY times Paul clearly distinguishes Jesus as someone other than, and lesser than his God, the Father:
Acts 13
16 Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: “Men of Israel and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me! 17 The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers………….22 After removing Saul, he made David their king.
23 From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.”
Are you able to see that Paul didn't confuse Jesus with his and our God?
Jesus Greater Than Moses
Agreed. And God is greater than Jesus, right?Your answer doesn't explain how any SERVANT OF God could be “God over all”.
Also, please tell me who the God of the people of Israel is – according to Acts 13:17, as quoted above.
Then tell me, according to verse 23, if Jesus IS that God of the people of Israel – or someone OTHER THAN that God – someone who that God SENT.
YHVH is the God of Israel, the God of gods and the Lord of lords. Jesus is the Lord of lords.
Deut. 10:17
KQuote Jesus is the Lord of lords.
Deut. 10:17Dt 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.
it does no mention Jesus ,what version of bible do you use
T-
I didn't say that it mentions Jesus (it doesn't mention the Father either, btw). However, Jesus is the Lord of lords which is clearly stated in Revelations. Jesus is our one Lord which is clearly stated in 1 Corinthians. YHVH is our Lord of lords.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,21:35) I am saying that He existed as a spirit being before He was begotten before the ages. I have shown you that He was the eternal life that was with the Father from 1 John 1. we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us
Since all of us have the chance of gaining eternal life THROUGH God's sacrificial Lamb, Jesus Christ, that Lamb can poetically be called “the Eternal Life”.But Jesus being called “the eternal life” (for US) doesn't mean Jesus himself existed from eternity. In fact, Jesus died Kathi. He has NOW been GRANTED eternal life from the Father – just as some of us will be.
In short, that scripture in no way says Jesus has existed from eternity. Kathi, I have a post in the 1 John 5:20 thread that you haven't answered. It is the sixth post on page 188, I believe. Please address it for me.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,21:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 26 2013,19:19) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,01:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2013,17:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2013,07:03) It doesn't make sense with Moses, but IT DOES make sense with Christ ……………..
Why Kathi? Why would it be OBVIOUS that one particular servant of God could not be “God over all”, but not just as obvious that the other servant of God could not be “God over all”?Both servants of Jehovah are called gods in scripture. Both did many miracles, signs, and wonders. God's people have been baptized into both of their names.
So why one servant of God, and not the other?
Kathi, t8 made a very good point about this. We should be able to compare this “problem verse” with all the other words of Paul, when speaking about his God the Father, or his Lord Jesus Christ.
Over and over Paul makes it abundantly clear that the Father is his God, while Jesus is the one his God made Lord over him.
The following is just one of the MANY times Paul clearly distinguishes Jesus as someone other than, and lesser than his God, the Father:
Acts 13
16 Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: “Men of Israel and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me! 17 The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers………….22 After removing Saul, he made David their king.
23 From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.”
Are you able to see that Paul didn't confuse Jesus with his and our God?
Jesus Greater Than Moses
Agreed. And God is greater than Jesus, right?Your answer doesn't explain how any SERVANT OF God could be “God over all”.
Also, please tell me who the God of the people of Israel is – according to Acts 13:17, as quoted above.
Then tell me, according to verse 23, if Jesus IS that God of the people of Israel – or someone OTHER THAN that God – someone who that God SENT.
YHVH is the God of Israel, the God of gods and the Lord of lords. Jesus is the Lord of lords.
Deut. 10:17
Please answer my two questions according to the scripture I've posted in maroon……….. like I asked. (I've made them big and bold, so you can't miss them this time.)Also, please address for me how ANY servant OF God can be “God over all”.
Btw, I found yet another “Moses is God Almighty” scripture today.
Deuteronomy
29:2 Moses proclaimed to all Israel as follows: “You have seen all that the Lord did in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh……………..29:6 You have eaten no bread and drunk no wine or beer – all so that you might know that I am the Lord your God!
Lord help us if that verse had been about Jesus, and not Moses!
Verse 6 above is a perfect example of the kind of scriptures you paraded to t8 above – scriptures that are supposed to be “hinting” that Jesus is God Almighty. Yet verse 6 above doesn't “hint” at anything – it DIRECTLY says Moses is Jehovah your God. And we don't have to “twist” the translation just right, in order to make it say Moses is Jehovah your God, do we? It's actually written that way in the MT!
But you and I don't BELIEVE that Moses is Jehovah our God, do we Kathi? And why not? Because of the hundreds of other scriptures that CLEARLY identify him as someone OTHER THAN Jehovah our God, right?
It is for that same reason that t8, Pierre, David, Gene, Kerwin, journey, Wakeup, Devo, etc. don't believe that JESUS is Jehovah our God…………… because of the HUNDREDS of other scriptures that CLEARLY identify him as someone OTHER THAN Jehovah our God.
For the love of God, Kathi, Jesus himself tells us that our one God is the SAME EXACT God that he himself has! So unless Jesus is a part of HIS OWN God, he is not a part of OURS!
So in that great “Jesus is God” list you gave to t8, you have Thomas, who DOES call Jesus his lord and god, right before John, who recorded that conversation, makes sure we know he wrote all those things so we would know that Jesus is the SON OF God.
And you've quoted John, who teaches that Jesus was a god who was with THE God in the beginning.
And you quote Luke in a verse that is translated to sound like God Himself shed blood at the hands of mere mortal men.
NET Bible does a much better job with that one:Act 20:28
Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son.They add this footnote:
Grk “with the blood of his own.”And finally, you offer Paul, in a translation that makes a servant OF God be “God over all” – when you know full well that the words can be translated at least three other ways – all of which align much better with other writings of Paul.
Do you notice that ALL of the verses you use as “proof texts” can be translated and understood in other ways – ways that actually align with the rest of scripture? Yet you Trinitarians look for anything you can TWIST to make it sound like the servant of God is the very God he serves.
And all the while, there is not for Jesus one single verse like Deuteronomy 29:6, is there? There isn't a single verse in scripture where Jesus point blank claims to be “Jehovah your God”, right?
Like I keep telling you, I could make a much stronger case for Moses being God Almighty than you ever will for J
esus. Doesn't that just irk you?Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 27 2013,18:01) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 26 2013,04:05) We teach that Jesus came from God.
Kathi teaches that Jesus is God.John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.Jesus is with us Kathi.
We also teach that the Father is God and God made Jesus Lord.
Kathi teaches that Jesus is God and Lord and the Father is too.1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Paul is with us Kathi.
We teach that Jesus is given revelation from God and only says what he hears his God saying.
You believe that Jesus is God.Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,John is with us Kathi.
Jesus, Paul, and John teach what we teach.
You teach against them all.
You need to examine your doctrine and life closely Kathi.
Do not harden your heart.
Kathi teaches that Jesus is God and Lord and the Father is too.
Yep! I'm right there with Thomas, the disciple of the Lord Jesus, His Lord and God.I'm also in agreement with John who tells us that the Word was with God and the Word was God; and that the begotten God explains the invisible God…that's TWO!
I'm also in agreement with Luke who wrote in Acts:
“Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.”I'm in agreement with Paul who wrote in Romans:
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
And on and on.
You are in agreement with one version of understanding some scriptures that have multiple meaning depending on where the commas are. You are against clear scriptures that cannot be manipulated by commas.So we can cater for both, you can only cater for one.
If anyone had to guess a correct theory, then it is the one that works when tested in all ways. An incorrect theory doesn't. It might work here and there, but not all the time.
Reminds me of that saying, “You cannot fool all the people all the time”. You cannot apply your theory to every scripture. Whereas what we believe agrees with all scripture.
Go figure.
Eternal life is to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent. Two things for you, you are taking a big risk teaching what you do. And if you think the only true God is the Father plus Jesus, and scripture says the one who sent Jesus (the Father) is the ONLY TRUE GOD, then that is surely a sign that you do not know this God. On both of these points I offer the following advice for you:
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
Think about it. If you are wrong as can plainly be seen in scripture, then you risk your own salvation and the salvation of those who might hear you. And if that happens, you have no one to blame but yourself. Not only were you warned multiple times, but scripture was given to you of which you turned away.
The only true God sent Jesus. You are trying your best to change this to mean something else but the truth.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 01 2013,05:18) T- I didn't say that it mentions Jesus (it doesn't mention the Father either, btw). However, Jesus is the Lord of lords which is clearly stated in Revelations. Jesus is our one Lord which is clearly stated in 1 Corinthians. YHVH is our Lord of lords.
Kathiwere in 1 Cor ;
terraricca-
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.Acts 13
16 Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: “Men of Israel and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me! 17 The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers………….22 After removing Saul, he made David their king.
23 From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.”
Kathi, please tell me who the God of the people of Israel is – according to Acts 13:17, as quoted above.
Then tell me, according to verse 23, if Jesus IS that God of the people of Israel – or someone OTHER THAN that God – someone who that God SENT.
So you DON'T see Jesus listed as someone OTHER THAN “the God of the people of Israel”?
That's strange…… because it's right there before our very eyes. Hmmmm……………..
It must be awfully dark inside those blinders, Kathi.
Mike,
There you go again, mistaken.
I see Jesus as someone other than the First Power of YHVH obviously, since I see Him as the Second Power of YHVH, not the First Power of YHVH.You are the blind one here.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2013,07:04) I said ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE I POSTED, KATHI. Think that'll be big enough, Pierre?
Yes ,big enough,but Kathi still as her own opinion ,see she start her answer by saying : I : SEE :so she answering from her view not from scriptures ,So this is useless discussion to me
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