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T8,
You are blinded to the scriptures that speak of Jesus as God over all. You and your buddies seem to have a common spirit that wants you to boldly say that Jesus is not the mighty God over all.Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 23 2013,11:44) T8,
You are blinded to the scriptures that speak of Jesus as God over all. You and your buddies seem to have a common spirit that wants you to boldly say that Jesus is not the mighty God over all.
KATHIJn 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”
read here ;
“””‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”””
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 23 2013,19:44) T8,
You are blinded to the scriptures that speak of Jesus as God over all. You and your buddies seem to have a common spirit that wants you to boldly say that Jesus is not the mighty God over all.
We are taught that there is one true God the Father and HE sent HIS son. We are taught that there is one God the Father who is over all and through all. We are taught that God is the head of Christ.Call us gullible for believing the scriptures by all means, but you can't call us blind. We believe the very things that are written.
If we are fools, we are fools for Christ.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 23 2013,12:24) Jesus is the son of God who is over all and in all.
That God works primarily through his son.
I made a mistake here. I intended to say 'Jesus is the son of THE God who is over all and in all.
That God works primarily through his son.'.I missed out the definite article in my sentence.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 23 2013,19:44) T8,
You are blinded to the scriptures that speak of Jesus as God over all. You and your buddies seem to have a common spirit that wants you to boldly say that Jesus is not the mighty God over all.
Kathi 4:5
Jesus is God over all.Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.Hmmmm.
Should I believe Kathi or Paul.
Hmmmm. What would you do? Its a hard choice.
Kathi believes what Paul wrote here:
Romans 9:5 And the Patriarchs; and from them The Messiah appeared in the flesh, who is The God Who is over all, to Whom are praises and blessings to the eternity of eternities, amen.
Christians all over the world boldly proclaim what Paul wrote. Three people on here deny what Paul wrote here and try to twist the meaning even though they may acknowledge that Jesus is called the theos in scripture and acknowledge that He has all authority.
Christian men stand and boldly exclaim that Jesus is the God over all. Jesus and the Father are one!
Those who deny this yet acknowledge that Jesus is called the theos in scripture and acknowledge that He has all authority but can't say it boldly are cowards.Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2013,09:14) Kathi believes what Paul wrote here: Romans 9:5 And the Patriarchs; and from them The Messiah appeared in the flesh, who is The God Who is over all, to Whom are praises and blessings to the eternity of eternities, amen.
Kathi thinks she believes Romans 9:5, but her lack of defense likely proves that she definitely does not believe in Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.We believe both and you cannot by reason of what you teach believe both can you. Surely if you were concerned about your life that fact would be troublesome. If it is not, then you care less about truth and more about your understanding being right.
Kathi, it is interesting that all who promote the Trinity or the Binity in your case use as their proof verses that are not part of the original or oldest texts or scriptures that can be understood in multiple ways using different punctuation that is non-existent in Hebrew and Greek.
Romans 9:5 is a perfect example here. If you move the commas around, you can get 3 different meanings.
1. Christ according to the flesh who is God over all be blessed to the ages. Amen.
2. Christ according to the flesh who is over all. God be blessed to the ages. Amen.
3. Christ according to the flesh. God who is over all be blessed to the ages. Amen.Even many Trinitarian scholars believe that this is not saying that Jesus is God, yet Trinitarian Apologists include it anyway as they do many other verses that can be manipulated to their view. This is evident when you look at different translations that use one of the 3 meanings above.
So on the outset you have a 1 in 3 chance of being right and I have a 2 in 3 chance because points 2 and 3 do not say that Jesus is God. However you have a much less chance than 1 in 3 because the term “be blessed to the ages” elsewhere in scripture is talking about the Father. So you then have to believe that this term as referring to Jesus is the one exception.
I am going to start a conversation to discuss Romans 9:5, so this discussion doesn't focus too much on that scripture.
NOTE: There is only one way to understand Ephesians 4:6 and that is as follows:
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.Ask yourself this. Why do you and other Trinitarian Apologists need to use verses that have multiple meanings to support your view, while we can use those same verses and all the other ones that clearly stipulate that the Father is the only true God.
That should make you think Kathi if you have any reason left in you.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 23 2013,13:14) Those who deny this yet acknowledge that Jesus is called the theos in scripture…………….
Why are you addding the word “THE” before “theos”? Didn't you just get done saying that your theology is not based on that word?Wouldn't it be more accurate to say Jesus is called theos – like many other beings in scripture?
Of course it would be. I knew all along that it was YOU who was making a mountain out of a molehill with that definite article. It was YOU who lured t8 into that whole discussion, and when it was proven that even Satan is called “THE theos” with a qualifyer, you bailed and blamed t8 for the whole thing………….. only to start it all over again with this post.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 22 2013,21:31) Mike,
You lean on what you call 'common sense' continually. What you seem to lack is God's wisdom.
First, are you claiming that YOU have “God's wisdom”?Secondly, didn't you put the apostrophe in the wrong place? Where you put it implies that there is only ONE Almighty God. Here, let me fix it so it is in line with YOUR doctrine: What you seem to lack is Gods' wisdom. That way, we can be sure you are talking about the wisdom of BOTH of your Almighty Gods.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 22 2013,21:31) Common sense says:
1. Sons do not pre-exist their conception…Jesus did.
2. Lions aren't also Lambs…Jesus is.
3. The First cannot also be the Last…Jesus is the First AND the Last.
4. The Root cannot also be the Shoot…Jesus is the Root AND the Shoot of Jesse.
5. God cannot be a servant…Jesus is called both.
6. God cannot become also a man…Jesus did.
7. Two cannot be one…The Father and Son are ONE.
#1 is not only lacking common sense, but also lacks a single shred of scriptural support.#2 makes perfect sense, and describes not only Jesus, but many others in scripture.
#3 can also be said of many in scripture. For example, Moses was the first and last human being God used to lead His people out of Egypt.
#4 makes perfect sense if you understand that Jesus was not only after David, but also before him.
#5 is mis-worded. My claim is that the servant OF our ONE and ONLY Almighty God cannot also BE that ONE and ONLY Almighty God.
#6 goes against scripture. God is immutable – He never changes. For God to become a man would constitute a “change”, thereby making the scriptures null and void.
#7 makes perfect sense, as we are also “one” with both of them.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 22 2013,21:31) Your argument about Moses is lame. ………don't waste the reader's time with this argument anymore.
Actually, I think my argument about Moses touches a nerve, and that's why you're getting angry about me using it.How about you answer the questions from my last post:
If Romans 9:5 was about Moses instead of Jesus, everybody in the world would understand that the “God over all” was the Father. They wouldn't even CONSIDER the alternate translation that suggested Moses, the servant OF God, was the “God over all” who was mentioned, right? This would just be God-given common sense, right?
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 22 2013,21:31) Who's name are all things done throughout the OT?
Give me a scriptural example.Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 22 2013,21:31) Who's name are all things done throughout the NT after the resurrection?
In the NT, we do all things THROUGH the name of God's servant, Jesus Christ – to the glory of God the Father……. right?Quote (t8 @ Feb. 23 2013,03:50) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 23 2013,12:24) Jesus is the son of God who is over all and in all.
That God works primarily through his son.
I made a mistake here. I intended to say 'Jesus is the son of THE God who is over all and in all.
That God works primarily through his son.'.I missed out the definite article in my sentence.
And we know how important that article can be, right?Good posts, t8.
Mike?
Quote #1 is not only lacking common sense, but also lacks a single shred of scriptural support. You, who speak frequently about the pre-existence of Christ now don't believe He existed before conception? No scriptural support you say??
Mike,
Quote #4 makes perfect sense if you understand that Jesus was not only after David, but also before him. It makes perfect sense IF….
If it makes perfect common sense, why do Gene, Kerwin, et al debate this constantly with you?
Mike,
Quote #5 is mis-worded. My claim is that the servant OF our ONE and ONLY Almighty God cannot also BE that ONE and ONLY Almighty God. So, who is saying that the Son is the Father? The Second Power of YHVH is the servant of the First Power of YHVH. No one is saying that the Second Power of YHVH is also the First Power of YHVH.
Mike,
Quote If Romans 9:5 was about Moses instead of Jesus, everybody in the world would understand that the “God over all” was the Father. They wouldn't even CONSIDER the alternate translation that suggested Moses, the servant OF God, was the “God over all” who was mentioned, right? This would just be God-given common sense, right? It doesn't make sense with Moses, but IT DOES make sense with Christ who is both God and Man and has all authority in heaven and on earth, as scripture tells us.
More later…
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 25 2013,03:45) Mike? Quote #1 is not only lacking common sense, but also lacks a single shred of scriptural support. You, who speak frequently about the pre-existence of Christ now don't believe He existed before conception? No scriptural support you say??
Kathi.John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.You have failed this scripture.
- You don't believe that God is your Father, rather you believe that the Father is and perhaps Jesus is too.
- You don't believe that Jesus came from God because you believe that he is God.
I pray to the Father in Yeshua's name that he will give you a moment of sobriety so you can see this.
Jesus said two big things in that verse that you ought to believe if you claim to follow him as your lord. As it stands now, you oppose Jesus on these 2 points and we have been teaching both here for years now.
Why not embrace the truth. It is the best thing for your soul. Or will you be like those obstinate Jews whom Jesus was talking to that argued against Jesus teachings as you are.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 25 2013,03:54) It doesn't make sense with Moses, but IT DOES make sense with Christ who is both God and Man and has all authority in heaven and on earth, as scripture tells us. More later…
Remember, Jesus said that he came from God. He never once said he is God.It is you and those who believe the lie of the Trinity who say he is God.
Another big fail Kathi. This is not like flunking Maths or something. The truth that the Father is God and he sent his son is ETERNAL LIFE.
Why play dice with your own soul?
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 25 2013,03:47) Mike, Quote #4 makes perfect sense if you understand that Jesus was not only after David, but also before him. It makes perfect sense IF….
If it makes perfect common sense, why do Gene, Kerwin, et al debate this constantly with you?
Oh, Gene and Kerwin are the authority on scripture.
I wasn't aware of that. I am sure you don't follow them, but when convenient promote them when it helps your case.“And this is eternal life, that they believe in you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.”
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