The divider of Christians

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 14 2013,21:10)

Jesus is the only begotten God of God.

My Bible says, he is the son of God.
I will stick with that. Thanks Kathi, but no thanks.
When people say no, then that usually means no, they don't want what you are offering.
Lol. That was a campaign here in NZ a while back.
Obviously we have clearly rejected your teaching and I don't know one person who agrees with you.
So why is no not good enough?

February 14, 2013 at 8:24 am#335641

Participant

Here's an idea about that:

It would be comical to have the moderators of the forum to have to restrict themselves to the 'Heretics' section!

Maybe give it a go and see if the rest of us can discuss without being degraded constantly by the insecurity of the moderators. It might be like a breath of fresh air.

I wonder how many tiles they would have by now if they weren't the moderators for all the forum rules they break…hmmm.

February 14, 2013 at 8:27 am#335642

Participant

Here, t8, this is what God is offering, will you reject that too:

John 1:18
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

February 14, 2013 at 2:25 pm#335670

theodorej

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 14 2013,12:19)

Quote (theodorej @ Feb. 13 2013,12:44)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2013,14:42)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,19:55)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2013,21:08)

According to this logic, if Jesus is the Son of God, then Jesus was conceived if He really must be like every other father and son, according to you.

Kathi,

The act of conception is an ACT. That means that at some point in time, it HAPPENS.

So at one point, there was just God. And then, through the ACT of conception (or whatever), there was Jesus.

The idea that Jesus was in the process of being conceived inside of God from eternity is not supported by any scripture, nor does it even make sense. Worse than that, it is actually contradicted by more than a few scriptures.

I realize that you believe things like this, because you WANT TO believe them. And that is why I gave you that little list in my last post – the list of things scripture DOES say. I think it would be good for you to deal with the things scripture DOES say, and build your understanding around those things.

Mike,
this is not supported by any scripture:

Quote

So at one point, there was just God. And then, through the ACT of conception (or whatever), there was Jesus.

you also said:

Quote

I don't know anyone that teaches that Jesus was in the process of being conceived inside of God from eternity. Where do you come up with these things?

“God is one”” Iam that Iam” “Iam the alpha and the omega” these are just a few of the many names and adages that tell us that the eternal “IS” and there is none other…. The trinity is a concept that is routed from the beginning of the universal church…. God is spirit and holy spirit is the very essence of him …. The third party is a result of carnal understanding with out any consideration for the fact that Gods ways are higher than ours and anything is possible with God as well as nothing being possible without him…

Hi Ted,
I'm glad you are gracing the forum with your comments again! :;):

I would like to know what you think John 1:1 is talking about when it mentions two that are God.

Kathi …. My self being pragmatic as well as logical here is what I can come up with ….. The Guardian of Divinity aka God and multiple other names, left us with a book of instruction and in it he was very specific he said “Iam that Iam” and there are none other like him… “He stated numerous times that he is one”…. My deduction in light of the many misleading interpretations of scripture is this …. In John 1:1 we are told that Jesus is the word… In other scriptures we are told that “The word became flesh” and so no…. If you could imagine this “That every thing you said became reality”it would be by your word things would be happening…when you apply this concept with childlike belief(something we all once had when we were growing up)It is not hard to see the Eternal as one… Being spirit in state and power and by virtue of every word he creates…. Jesus is and was the essence of his word ,who became flesh…The personage of Jesus (carnal humanity)has passed away and suffered death the risen christ is the proof that the word of the eternal is forever…

February 14, 2013 at 6:54 pm#335689

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 14 2013,13:27)

Here, t8, this is what God is offering, will you reject that too:

John 1:18
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

kathi

could you tell me what the Greek or Jewish audience understood by those words

February 15, 2013 at 12:55 am#335743

Blocked

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2013,01:11)

Mike, what happens when people don't repent of their false teaching and you have given them enough scriptural evidence? Do we refute them till we die? And what is the point of that?

Or do we create a new Category called Crackpots, Heretics, or False Teachers and let them teach falsely to each other?

Ideas?

t8,

Let me remind you of the wisdom of Moses. Remember when the Israelites had made the calf, and God wanted to destroy them all, and start over with Moses? Moses made an excellent point in that situation: God, if you destroy them out here in the wilderness, then the nations that already know you delivered us out of Egypt will say that it was because you were not strong enough to deliver us to the land you promised to give us.

I think that if you relegate certain people to a “Heretics” category, a similar thing will be said of you, ie: You could not scripturally refute their claims, and so had to remove them to keep their “truth” from being heard.

As in the case of God and the Israelites, the claim wouldn't be true……….. but might be said nonetheless.

I think the answer is to address all of Kathi's (or whoever's) posts with short and to-the-point rebuttals. That way we're not wasting a lot of time on it, but those who read her unscriptural claims will also see our scriptural rebuttals.

February 15, 2013 at 12:57 am#335744

Blocked

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2013,01:15)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 14 2013,21:10)

Jesus is the only begotten God of God.

My Bible says, he is the son of God.
I will stick with that.

Yeah………….. like that! Direct, scriptural, short, and to-the-point. Not a lot of time wasted either.

February 15, 2013 at 1:04 am#335745

Blocked

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 13 2013,20:35)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2013,11:22)

Hi 2B,

John 17
1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Can you tell me WHO said the words in the above prayer?

Hi Mike.

I believe that the Holy Spirit (Son) was doing the speaking there.

And do you believe the “Holy Spirit Son” is also God the Father?

Quote (2besee @ Feb. 13 2013,20:35)

If you have no problem believing that Jesus pre-existed as the Son, and that He pre-existed as spirit, then what I am saying is not really any different, except that I believe that the Son was the Holy Spirit….

I believe Jesus existed as a spirit being in heaven before God sent him into the world. I believe he was the Son of God before coming in the flesh, but not that he was God's Holy Spirit. And I don't believe the Holy Spirit of God is the Son of God.

I believe JESUS is the “Son of God”, and the Holy Spirit is something OTHER THAN the Son of God.

It seems what we believe is quite different after all. We can discuss this further here – or in the other thread. Your choice.

February 15, 2013 at 1:15 am#335747

2besee

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2013,13:04)

We can discuss this further here – or in the other thread. Your choice.

Other thread Mike,
thank you.
I only posted here because I had to correct you.

February 15, 2013 at 1:20 am#335749

Participant

I hear ya Mike.

I am still wondering if people cannot prove their claim, then it still seems a waste of time having to answer their propaganda.

And personally I don't care if people think I couldn't refute them, because they would only need to read the discussions to see that all their arguments have been refuted multiple times. It wouldn't be that hard to find. If they are not unproven, then they should stay till it is unproven, so as to not mistakenly throw away truth.

If you had a section in a forum where everyone gets to preach what they want, and when fully unproven, they are then relegated to the Unproven Area. From there, they can escape if they make a new argument to support their view that has some proof or possibility, and they can return to the fold for more serious dialog with their new evidence.

As it stands, members would also have access to the area where they are if they want to disprove them further.

I wonder if it would keep things fresh, by flushing out the same old stuff that let's face it is quite a bore, and get's replaced with new stuff to refute or support. This way we are moving forward and not going in circles.

I still think it could be a novel idea that has not been implemented in other forums from what I can tell. Could be a good result leading to quality debates and dialog.

It makes me think of those second century fathers who often had debates. I don't think they debated the same stuff over and over till they died. I think once they put someone to flight, they moved on to other things.

February 15, 2013 at 1:25 am#335751

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 14 2013,01:02)

That which pre-existed of the Son came from within the Father.

Is there a scripture that says Jesus came “from within” the Father?

Also, this doesn't address my point. Of course Jesus was conceived of Mary. What I'm asking is if you believe he was ever CONCEIVED before he was begotten by God in the beginning. (Aren't beings usually CONCEIVED before they are begotten?)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 14 2013,01:02)

I do see that He was given a name that states an eternal existence, YHVH,

There is no scriptural evidence that the name YHWH “states eternal existence”. The Israelites were called by that name, and they weren't “eternally existent”.

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 14 2013,01:02)

Also, your reliance on the MSG Bible for the 1 Cor verse shows that you had to once again pick the minority translation while I have the majority of translations including your preferred translation to support my view

I used that translation because I thought it might help you to better understand the message of the passage. And I posted the other information about that Greek word for your benefit and knowledge.

Do your “majority of translations” all say the “the message of the cross” is the “power of God” in verse 18? Of course they do. And do you think the message of the cross is LITERALLY the POWER of the Almighty God?

Or does it make more sense that the power and wisdom of God WERE DISPLAYED through Jesus, and the message of the cross?

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 14 2013,01:02)

Jesus as the Power of God is easily demonstrated in the fact that all things are done in His name.

Are you saying that, without Jesus, the Father has no power? If not, what exactly ARE you saying?

February 15, 2013 at 1:45 am#335754

Blocked

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2013,18:20)

You're probably right. Take the trinity debates for example. First Arius was excommunicated, then Athanasius was later banished.

They just got rid of the guy who was speaking against the majority belief at any given time.

I don't like that idea. To me, it smacks of the time when people could be killed for having a Bible of their own. I don't like the idea of the people in power saying, “It's my way or the highway”.

Besides, I know I delve deeper into the scriptures because of the people here who DON'T agree with me, than the people who do.

I see and understand your point. You must worry about being the owner of a site where heretics are allowed to spread their diseases – almost as if you CONDONE the things they say, since you let them post on your site.

But you didn't start this site to be a “My way or the highway” kind of thing, did you? I like things the way they are. I learn much more about scriptures by trying to refute the things Kathi, Ed, Jack, Keith, jammin, etc say here. And that's why I'm glad they're here.

As long as there remain people like you, me, and Pierre to call them on the unscriptural things they post, they will do no real harm, IMO. Because let's face it, the things they are claiming are already what the majority of “Christians” believe anyway. So maybe we're teaching some closet Trinitarians a thing or two by refuting the things these guys post. Not everyone who reads here posts here, right? Perhaps people who have been Trinitarians all their lives are learning just from reading the discussions we have with Kathi and company. Maybe some of them are starting to believe the scriptures that Jesus is the Son of God, not God Himself – just from the scriptures we post to refute those other guy's claims.

February 15, 2013 at 2:45 am#335761

Participant

Okay, I suppose as long as there are people here for the long haul who are willing to refute them. Otherwise they will take over. It's like spam, if they are not filtered out to begin with, you need to deal with them one at a time. I may not be available to rebut them all, but I know you have been pretty good at it and likely will be in the future too.

I also deal with spam at this site. And have filters up front that get rid of most unwanted solicitations, but still need to deal with some manually.

Cheers.

February 15, 2013 at 4:07 am#335781

Participant

t8,

Quote

The thing about that is, you would have been the one put to flight! I happen to agree with the majority of second century fathers., ha. You ought to read about them more.

February 15, 2013 at 4:09 am#335782

Participant

Mike,
You have already been kicked out of Christian message boards, haven't you? What does that tell you? Fortunately for you, you found a board where two people agree with your Arian ideas.

February 15, 2013 at 4:12 am#335783

Participant

t8 and Mike

you are both right in what you are saying ,but it will not change soon ,its like playing the house of cards ,get up and down it comes ,any one who does not build with Christ scatters,and the reality of it ,is that the refusal to submit to God his our own doing ,and yet those people say that they have faith in Christ i wander

February 15, 2013 at 4:15 am#335784

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 15 2013,09:07)

t8,

Quote

The thing about that is, you would have been the one put to flight! I happen to agree with the majority of second century fathers., ha. You ought to read about them more.

kathi

how more you read about the devil how more you start to look and think like him ,this is not to be recommended

February 15, 2013 at 4:25 am#335788

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 15 2013,09:09)

Mike,
You have already been kicked out of Christian message boards, haven't you? What does that tell you? Fortunately for you, you found a board where two people agree with your Arian ideas.

kathi

strange that you still say that you believe in Christ ,because he was rejected by a nation ,like a real looser ,but I do think you do not have faith in Christ but in your religion that profess Christ teachings but in their own way ,and glorify themselves with the honors of knowing the bible and have some modified understanding that they make their own possession,and consider all other truth within scriptures of not important and so can be rejected at will ,and so judge what can not be judged by men ,

people that live for the present day in the world in a position that is not cold nor hot ,but tasteless lukewarm ,

February 15, 2013 at 4:46 am#335794

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2013,14:25)

Is there a scripture that says Jesus came “from within” the Father?

If I had to answer that, I would probably say that the Logos is within God as one of his attributes, and then we see that the Logos is WITH God, and then becomes flesh.

I think this is the line that most Second Century Fathers had.

However, this certainly doesn't support LU because an attribute is an attribute, not a separate mind with a free will. She likely believes that the Logos that was part of God existed with his on will deep down in God somewhere. I have no idea where she gets this stuff.

Anyway, we see the same with wisdom. We know that wisdom is an attribute of God. Scripture also says that Wisdom was the first to be given birth and was at God's side when God made everything. And later, we are told that Jesus is wisdom from God.

To take this further, I suspect that all of us are created from God's spirit and from elements that he has made. And we are based on one or more of God's traits. That is why we have names like Charity or Joy and why names are important and why Jesus gave names to his disciples that described who they are suppose to be in God. Further, we are given a name that no one else will know according to Revelations. Perhaps that name is who we are individually. Who knows Mike, you might be called Truth and I might be Wisdom, and Ed J might be a number.

Perhaps the sum of a man is a body made from the elements, God's breath that gives him life, and a splash of God's character or a dash of his traits.

That is why I think men are different and have different talents. We are all unique because while we may all have the breath of God, we all have different character traits.

February 15, 2013 at 5:14 am#335797