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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,14:11) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 11 2013,18:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,09:42) 2B believes that the Holy Spirit is the original “eternal Son of God”, who works side by side with Jesus – a different Son of God. Not side by side, Mike. I said “as one”.
But how can you say “as one” in one breath, and then immediately turn around and quote this scripture to t8:Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.Can't you see that this statement proves Jesus is someone OTHER THAN the Holy Spirit? How is it okay to speak against Jesus, but not okay to speak against the Spirit – IF THEY ARE “AS ONE”?
Mike,I have been over this!
Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, Jesus is a man, 100%, although He had no earthly father as He was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit, just as Adam was also without a father from earth, and yet was 100% man.
The Holy Spirit was in Jesus the man.
So, they were “as if one” because Jesus the man had the Holy Spirit in Him.
That is why the verse that you quoted makes the distinction between the son of man and the Holy Spirit.
I should not have to repeat this again!
God the Father and the Holy Spirit however are different — they are truly the one being.
And I have scripture to back it up perfectly.
'For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus'.
Do you believe it or do you not.
Or as the ISV (International Standard Version – now my preferred version) translates it:
'There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and human beings—a human, the Messiah Jesus.'
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,19:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2013,21:08) About your other rant…you once again act like I am saying that the Son is the first power of YHVH and not a second power.
Scripture doesn't speak of Jesus being the first, second, third, or even the hundred and twenty-second “power of YHWH”.So once again, if scripture doesn't say it, then don't teach it.
Well scripture says it:1 Cor 1:22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
You believe that the Son is the 'wisdom of God' but you don't believe that the Son is the 'power of God?'
If scripture says it, then teach it.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,19:55) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2013,21:08) According to this logic, if Jesus is the Son of God, then Jesus was conceived if He really must be like every other father and son, according to you.
Kathi,The act of conception is an ACT. That means that at some point in time, it HAPPENS.
So at one point, there was just God. And then, through the ACT of conception (or whatever), there was Jesus.
The idea that Jesus was in the process of being conceived inside of God from eternity is not supported by any scripture, nor does it even make sense. Worse than that, it is actually contradicted by more than a few scriptures.
I realize that you believe things like this, because you WANT TO believe them. And that is why I gave you that little list in my last post – the list of things scripture DOES say. I think it would be good for you to deal with the things scripture DOES say, and build your understanding around those things.
Mike,
this is not supported by any scripture:Quote So at one point, there was just God. And then, through the ACT of conception (or whatever), there was Jesus. you also said:
Quote The idea that Jesus was in the process of being conceived inside of God from eternity is not supported by any scripture, nor does it even make sense. Worse than that, it is actually contradicted by more than a few scriptures. I don't know anyone that teaches that Jesus was in the process of being conceived inside of God from eternity. Where do you come up with these things?
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2013,14:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,19:55) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2013,21:08) According to this logic, if Jesus is the Son of God, then Jesus was conceived if He really must be like every other father and son, according to you.
Kathi,The act of conception is an ACT. That means that at some point in time, it HAPPENS.
So at one point, there was just God. And then, through the ACT of conception (or whatever), there was Jesus.
The idea that Jesus was in the process of being conceived inside of God from eternity is not supported by any scripture, nor does it even make sense. Worse than that, it is actually contradicted by more than a few scriptures.
I realize that you believe things like this, because you WANT TO believe them. And that is why I gave you that little list in my last post – the list of things scripture DOES say. I think it would be good for you to deal with the things scripture DOES say, and build your understanding around those things.
Mike,
this is not supported by any scripture:Quote So at one point, there was just God. And then, through the ACT of conception (or whatever), there was Jesus. you also said:
Quote The idea that Jesus was in the process of being conceived inside of God from eternity is not supported by any scripture, nor does it even make sense. Worse than that, it is actually contradicted by more than a few scriptures. I don't know anyone that teaches that Jesus was in the process of being conceived inside of God from eternity. Where do you come up with these things?
“God is one”” Iam that Iam” “Iam the alpha and the omega” these are just a few of the many names and adages that tell us that the eternal “IS” and there is none other…. The trinity is a concept that is routed from the beginning of the universal church…. God is spirit and holy spirit is the very essence of him …. The third party is a result of carnal understanding with out any consideration for the fact that Gods ways are higher than ours and anything is possible with God as well as nothing being possible without him…Quote (2besee @ Feb. 12 2013,19:46) The Holy Spirit was in Jesus the man. So, they were “as if one” because Jesus the man had the Holy Spirit in Him.
God the Father and the Holy Spirit however are different — they are truly the one being.
Hi 2B,John 17
1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Can you tell me WHO said the words in the above prayer?
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 12 2013,21:39) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,19:58) Scripture doesn't speak of Jesus being the first, second, third, or even the hundred and twenty-second “power of YHWH”. So once again, if scripture doesn't say it, then don't teach it.
Well scripture says it:1 Cor 1:22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
You believe that the Son is the 'wisdom of God' but you don't believe that the Son is the 'power of God?'
If scripture says it, then teach it.
How about this translation:1 Corinthians 1:24 MSG ©
But to us who are personally called by God himself–both Jews and Greeks–Christ is God's ultimate miracle and wisdom all wrapped up in one.The Greek word translated “power” in your translation, is translated as “miracle” 7 times in the KJV, and 19 times in the NET.
The translation above hits the nail on the head, because if you start reading the message from where it actually starts, in verse 17, it's easy to see that the message is about the “power” of the CROSS (ie: the redemption itself) – not about the person of Jesus Christ. (In verse 18, it is “the message of the cross” that is said to be “the power of God”. And the rest of the teaching follows that same point. Read verse 23 in the translation you posted, Kathi. It is not about Christ, per se, but about the redemption God provided for us through the CRUCIFIXION of His Son. And it is this “hard to believe” redemption of all of our sins that is the “stumbling block to the Jews” and “folly to Gentiles”.
But those of us who are called, both Jews and Greeks, are able to recognize the redemption we now have through the crucifixion of Christ. And it is that redemption of our sins that represents the miraculous power and amazing wisdom of our God. Who else but our God could figure out a way to make us “righteous” again – even though we are really far from it? And who else but our God would have the power to pull this redemption off? This is what the passage is about.
Kathi, I fear this is just another one of your “slants”. It's like the scripture about Moses I posted for you two days ago. Had that scripture been about Jesus, we would never hear the end of how Jesus is “God”, because “he” brings the rain.
And here, even though Paul is CLEARLY talking about the “message of the cross” being (ie: “displaying”) the “power” and “wisdom” of God, you have zeroed in on the words “Christ, the power of God”, and ran with it – imagining that God's servant Jesus is literally the POWER of his God and our God.
Remember that this passage is about the message of the cross. And then go and teach THAT, instead of what you are trying to teach with it.
Also, consider this next scripture:
Ezra 7:25
And you, Ezra, in accordance with the wisdom of your God, which you possess………..Now is Ezra really as wise as God? Does he really possess the same wisdom that his God possesses? Of course not. And you, being the smart Bible student that you are, are easily able to recognize this fact, right?
But what if those same words had been said about Jesus? Wouldn't we right now be talking about how Jesus has all the wisdom that God has – making them equal? Of course we would.
Kathi, this is the “slant” that the rest of us can see from the outside looking in. It is amazingly easy to spot, and most times it seems like the only ones who can't recognize the slant are the ones doing the slanting.
The passage you posted does not address my last post, because it doesn't really say “Jesus” is the “power” of God – like you imagine. And it for sure doesn't say that Jesus is the “second power of YHWH” – which was the claim I was refuting in the first place.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 12 2013,21:42)
Mike,
this is not supported by any scripture:Quote (mikeboll @ 64) So at one point, there was just God. And then, through the ACT of conception (or whatever), there was Jesus.
And YOUR claim that Jesus was eternally existing within his God IS supported by scripture?
Actually Kathi, MY claim IS supported by scriptures.
1) We know from scripture that God is from everlasting.
2) And we know that at some point, God begat for Himself a Son – as the first of His works. Psalm 2:7 says “Today (or “at this time”) I have begotten you”. That psalm speaks of a specific ACT, and the period of time in which that ACT took place. So at some point, the begetting of Jesus HAPPENED.
Just those two things alone imply that God, at one time, existed on His own……….. BEFORE bringing forth His firstborn Son.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 12 2013,21:42) I don't know anyone that teaches that Jesus was in the process of being conceived inside of God from eternity. Where do you come up with these things?
From this:Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2013,21:08) I simply asked you to show me where in scriptures was He said to have been conceived before creation. You do agree that He was a Son before creation, don't you? You also agree that conception according to every other father and son that has ever existed, comes before birth, right?
I assumed you were trying to say that Christ wasn't conceived at some particular point in time, but had ALWAYS existed in the state of “conception” until his God brought him forth.What point WERE you trying to make?
Mike,
I think that the Son always existed within the Father before He was begotten.Also, we know from scripture that Jesus is eternal life. The life that he was 'given' was as the 'shoot' not as the root.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,18:22) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 12 2013,21:39) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,19:58) Scripture doesn't speak of Jesus being the first, second, third, or even the hundred and twenty-second “power of YHWH”. So once again, if scripture doesn't say it, then don't teach it.
Well scripture says it:1 Cor 1:22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
You believe that the Son is the 'wisdom of God' but you don't believe that the Son is the 'power of God?'
If scripture says it, then teach it.
How about this translation:1 Corinthians 1:24 MSG ©
But to us who are personally called by God himself–both Jews and Greeks–Christ is God's ultimate miracle and wisdom all wrapped up in one.The Greek word translated “power” in your translation, is translated as “miracle” 7 times in the KJV, and 19 times in the NET.
The translation above hits the nail on the head, because if you start reading the message from where it actually starts, in verse 17, it's easy to see that the message is about the “power” of the CROSS (ie: the redemption itself) – not about the person of Jesus Christ. (In verse 18, it is “the message of the cross” that is said to be “the power of God”. And the rest of the teaching follows that same point. Read verse 23 in the translation you posted, Kathi. It is not about Christ, per se, but about the redemption God provided for us through the CRUCIFIXION of His Son. And it is this “hard to believe” redemption of all of our sins that is the “stumbling block to the Jews” and “folly to Gentiles”.
But those of us who are called, both Jews and Greeks, are able to recognize the redemption we now have through the crucifixion of Christ. And it is that redemption of our sins that represents the miraculous power and amazing wisdom of our God. Who else but our God could figure out a way to make us “righteous” again – even though we are really far from it? And who else but our God would have the power to pull this redemption off? This is what the passage is about.
Kathi, I fear this is just another one of your “slants”. It's like the scripture about Moses I posted for you two days ago. Had that scripture been about Jesus, we would never hear the end of how Jesus is “God”, because “he” brings the rain.
And here, even though Paul is CLEARLY talking about the “message of the cross” being (ie: “displaying”) the “power” and “wisdom” of God, you have zeroed in on the words “Christ, the power of God”, and ran with it – imagining that God's servant Jesus is literally the POWER of his God and our God.
Remember that this passage is about the message of the cross. And then go and teach THAT, instead of what you are trying to teach with it.
Also, consider this next scripture:
Ezra 7:25
And you, Ezra, in accordance with the wisdom of your God, which you possess………..Now is Ezra really as wise as God? Does he really possess the same wisdom that his God possesses? Of course not. And you, being the smart Bible student that you are, are easily able to recognize this fact, right?
But what if those same words had been said about Jesus? Wouldn't we right now be talking about how Jesus has all the wisdom that God has – making them equal? Of course we would.
Kathi, this is the “slant” that the rest of us can see from the outside looking in. It is amazingly easy to spot, and most times it seems like the only ones who can't recognize the slant are the ones doing the slanting.
The passage you posted does not address my last post, because it doesn't really say “Jesus” is the “power” of God – like you imagine. And it for sure doesn't say that Jesus is the “second power of YHWH” – which was the claim I was refuting in the first place.
Mike,
It is the Son's power that holds all things together. That is the power of God. Col 1Quote (theodorej @ Feb. 13 2013,12:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2013,14:42) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,19:55) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2013,21:08) According to this logic, if Jesus is the Son of God, then Jesus was conceived if He really must be like every other father and son, according to you.
Kathi,The act of conception is an ACT. That means that at some point in time, it HAPPENS.
So at one point, there was just God. And then, through the ACT of conception (or whatever), there was Jesus.
The idea that Jesus was in the process of being conceived inside of God from eternity is not supported by any scripture, nor does it even make sense. Worse than that, it is actually contradicted by more than a few scriptures.
I realize that you believe things like this, because you WANT TO believe them. And that is why I gave you that little list in my last post – the list of things scripture DOES say. I think it would be good for you to deal with the things scripture DOES say, and build your understanding around those things.
Mike,
this is not supported by any scripture:Quote So at one point, there was just God. And then, through the ACT of conception (or whatever), there was Jesus. you also said:
Quote The idea that Jesus was in the process of being conceived inside of God from eternity is not supported by any scripture, nor does it even make sense. Worse than that, it is actually contradicted by more than a few scriptures. I don't know anyone that teaches that Jesus was in the process of being conceived inside of God from eternity. Where do you come up with these things?
“God is one”” Iam that Iam” “Iam the alpha and the omega” these are just a few of the many names and adages that tell us that the eternal “IS” and there is none other…. The trinity is a concept that is routed from the beginning of the universal church…. God is spirit and holy spirit is the very essence of him …. The third party is a result of carnal understanding with out any consideration for the fact that Gods ways are higher than ours and anything is possible with God as well as nothing being possible without him…
Hi Ted,
I'm glad you are gracing the forum with your comments again!
I would like to know what you think John 1:1 is talking about when it mentions two that are God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2013,19:15) I think that the Son always existed within the Father before He was begotten.
“Thinking it”, and “scripturally supporting it” are two very different things, Kathi. Do you suppose Jesus was never “conceived”?Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2013,19:15) Also, we know from scripture that Jesus is eternal life. The life that he was 'given' was as the 'shoot' not as the root.
Us taking in knowledge of God, and the Christ He sent, is also “eternal life” – according to Jesus. Does that mean all of us have been taking in knowledge of God “from eternity”?Also, there is only one Jesus. He was the servant of his and our God long before his and our God sent him into this world. Why do you suppose when Jesus says, “I live because of the Father”, he really means “Only the 'flesh me' lives because of the Father”?
This is just another case of slanting. Nothing more. Believe the words Jesus DID say. Not the words YOU WISH he would have said.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2013,19:17) Mike,
It is the Son's power that holds all things together. That is the power of God. Col 1
I take it that you don't disagree with what I posted about that passage in 1 Corinthians 1?As for Col 1, to which verse do you refer please?
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 14 2013,15:15) Mike,
I think that the Son always existed within the Father before He was begotten.Also, we know from scripture that Jesus is eternal life. The life that he was 'given' was as the 'shoot' not as the root.
John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
So the life that Jesus has in himself was granted.
Since when does something that is granted to you mean that you had that thing forever. I will ask this in another way. How can you be given something you have always had?
Another illogical outcome to add to your false theory. Iv'e lost count now, how many illogical outcomes do we have with your theory now?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2013,15:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2013,19:17) Mike,
It is the Son's power that holds all things together. That is the power of God. Col 1
I take it that you don't disagree with what I posted about that passage in 1 Corinthians 1?As for Col 1, to which verse do you refer please?
1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.Power OF God.
Wisdom OF God.
Point being made: OFSimilarly, I am a son of God.
Again, OF means that I am not God.This is simple.
Simplicity in Christ renders the wisdom of man as foolishness.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2013,11:22) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 12 2013,19:46) The Holy Spirit was in Jesus the man. So, they were “as if one” because Jesus the man had the Holy Spirit in Him.
God the Father and the Holy Spirit however are different — they are truly the one being.
Hi 2B,John 17
1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Can you tell me WHO said the words in the above prayer?
Hi Mike.I believe that the Holy Spirit (Son) was doing the speaking there.
It is not that difficult to understand.
If you have no problem believing that Jesus pre-existed as the Son, and that He pre-existed as spirit, then what I am saying is not really any different, except that I believe that the Son was the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of the one God.Anyway, talk to you in the other thread. Okay.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,20:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2013,19:15) I think that the Son always existed within the Father before He was begotten.
“Thinking it”, and “scripturally supporting it” are two very different things, Kathi. Do you suppose Jesus was never “conceived”?Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2013,19:15) Also, we know from scripture that Jesus is eternal life. The life that he was 'given' was as the 'shoot' not as the root.
Us taking in knowledge of God, and the Christ He sent, is also “eternal life” – according to Jesus. Does that mean all of us have been taking in knowledge of God “from eternity”?Also, there is only one Jesus. He was the servant of his and our God long before his and our God sent him into this world. Why do you suppose when Jesus says, “I live because of the Father”, he really means “Only the 'flesh me' lives because of the Father”?
This is just another case of slanting. Nothing more. Believe the words Jesus DID say. Not the words YOU WISH he would have said.
Mike,
So are you saying that the Son's flesh pre-existed?? Or, did His flesh have a beginning in Mary. If it had a beginning, then it had received life in Mary and not beforehand. That which pre-existed of the Son came from within the Father.To answer your question about whether the Son was conceived before the ages, I don't see that written in scripture but I do see that He was given a name that states an eternal existence, YHVH, and He is the First and the Last. As the 'root' of Jesse, He identifies with YHVH in the OT in many ways, i.e. He is the Lord of lords, the Savior, the eternal life, the Word of the Lord, spreading out the heavens with His hands and laying the foundation of the world, being the Lord of all, etc.
Also, your reliance on the MSG Bible for the 1 Cor verse shows that you had to once again pick the minority translation while I have the majority of translations including your preferred translation to support my view.
Here it is in your beloved NWT:
24however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
When you choose the minority translation, I will likely not find your argument worthwhile unless you have a better reason than the Greek word is translated differently elsewhere.
Jesus as the Power of God is easily demonstrated in the fact that all things are done in His name.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 13 2013,21:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2013,15:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2013,19:17) Mike,
It is the Son's power that holds all things together. That is the power of God. Col 1
I take it that you don't disagree with what I posted about that passage in 1 Corinthians 1?As for Col 1, to which verse do you refer please?
1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.Power OF God.
Wisdom OF God.
Point being made: OFSimilarly, I am a son of God.
Again, OF means that I am not God.This is simple.
Simplicity in Christ renders the wisdom of man as foolishness.
Yes, t8, it is simple.
Jesus is the only begotten God of God.You came a little late to the party and are missing the point of the discussion
I suggest that the Father and the Son are the First and Second Power of YHVH. The pre-NT Jews understood this, it was not a foreign concept.
Proof is given here by the video teachings found in the first post here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….37;st=0Mike and t8,
Watch the videos so you too can learn that the Jews did understand that there were two powers of YHVH.You can choose to watch the videos or not. If not, then go discuss the matter of the Son being or not being the second Power of YHVH to your bathroom mirror. Have fun with that!
Mike, what happens when people don't repent of their false teaching and you have given them enough scriptural evidence? Do we refute them till we die? And what is the point of that?
Or do we create a new Category called Crackpots, Heretics, or False Teachers and let them teach falsely to each other?
Ideas?
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