- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote I think I'm with Princess and t8 on this one: Binity truly has become quite the bore. And we all know what happened next to Princess, don't we-no longer able to post in the believer's section. I do recognize that spirit in you both. I am not here to entertain you.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 10 2013,20:51) And yet is the Holy Spirit another son?
According to 2besee, “YES”.
2B believes that the Holy Spirit is the original “eternal Son of God”, who works side by side with Jesus – a different Son of God. Yet he acknowledges that Jesus was brought forth BY the Holy Spirit, which I think would make Jesus the GRANDSON of God, and not the SON of God.
Anyway, your point is accurate. God is the one who taught human beings languages. Surely God knew how people would understand the word “son”, and what that word implied, long before He ever told us about His “son” Jesus Christ.
Surely He didn't expect us to come to the conclusion that all other sons come AFTER their fathers, but His Son didn't.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 10 2013,21:00) So where in scriptures does it speak of the Son being conceived before creation? I mean, since all sons are conceived, right?
Kathi,You can't ask us to prove a negative. I've just explained this to jammin in the “Word” thread.
You can't say, “Well, the Bible doesn't say this DIDN'T happen, so therefore it DID”.
Instead, find out what the Bible DOES say, and then build your understanding around those words. For example, the Bible DOES say Jesus is the Son of God.
The Bible DOES say that Jesus' origins are from days of old.
The Bible DOES say that he is God's firstborn.
The Bible DOES say that our God is also Jesus' God.
On the other hand, the Bible DOESN'T say that Jesus has existed from eternity inside his God before his God brought him out from Himself.
It DOESN'T say our one Almighty God is comprised of TWO Almighty Gods, working together as a “Compound Unity Godhead”.
It DOESN'T say God is a combination of “God of gods” AND “Lord of lords”.
It DOESN'T say that Jesus was a “God/Man”.
See? These latter things are NOT things that the Bible actually says. They are merely things that YOU say, and then ask us to prove that they are NOT true.
This is neither reasonable, nor rational. Nor is it the way you will ever come to the truth of what the Bible actually DOES say.
Kathi, focus on what it DOES say for a while. And build your understanding around those things that it DOES say.
Ie: Jesus is the SERVANT OF God, therefore not likely God Himself.
Jesus is the SON OF God, therefore not likely to have existed for as long as his God has existed.
Jesus is the ANOINTED ONE OF God, therefore not likely the God who anointed him.
Jesus is the PROPHET OF God, therefore not likely the God who he prophesies in behalf of.
Jesus is the SACRIFICIAL LAMB OF God, therefore not likely the God who sent him to be a sacrifice.
Jesus was SENT BY God, therefore not likely the God who sent him.
Jesus DIED, therefore not likely God Almighty, who cannot die.
And so on, and so on……………..
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2013,17:03) Quote I think I'm with Princess and t8 on this one: Binity truly has become quite the bore. And we all know what happened next to Princess, don't we-no longer able to post in the believer's section. I do recognize that spirit in you both. I am not here to entertain you.
Well if you are a Skeptic then that is what happens here.I agree with Skeptics on many things like reading the phone book is boring, hamburgers taste nice, and a tropical holiday is fun.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,10:42) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 10 2013,20:51) And yet is the Holy Spirit another son?
According to 2besee, “YES”.2B believes that the Holy Spirit is the original “eternal Son of God”, who works side by side with Jesus – a different Son of God. Yet he acknowledges that Jesus was brought forth BY the Holy Spirit, which I think would make Jesus the GRANDSON of God, and not the SON of God.
Anyway, your point is accurate. God is the one who taught human beings languages. Surely God knew how people would understand the word “son”, and what that word implied, long before He ever told us about His “son” Jesus Christ.
Surely He didn't expect us to come to the conclusion that all other sons come AFTER their fathers, but His Son didn't.
This is what happens with false teachings. People build on top of them. But as it is written, 'woe to the person who lays the stumbling block that others stumble over'.Woe woe woe to them.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2013,17:00) So where in scriptures does it speak of the Son being conceived before creation? I mean, since all sons are conceived, right?
The meaning of son is offspring. And we know that God created all things through his son Jesus Christ and that there is nothing else that was made that was made not through him.This is repeated throughout scripture in different ways in case there was any confusion.
All things were created through the Word. The Word was in the beginning with God. Jesus is called the Word of God. Jesus sent his son into the world. Before Abraham, Jesus said, “I am”. He is the root and offspring of David. He has first place in all things. He is the prototype son, and we know that prototypes are first and then models on that prototype come next).
What more do you want.
Ask yourself, where does it say that Jesus is another Holy Spirit that proceeded from God for all eternity.
It doesn't. This case you make was closed months or years ago Kathi. You should be able to admit your loss and move on. When you can admit that you have a problem, then you are at the first stage of being cured.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 11 2013,15:22) Jesus sent his son into the world.
He did? That's a new one on me!
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 11 2013,15:22) This case you make was closed months or years ago Kathi.
With this, I agree. In fact, an actual “case” was never opened. This whole thing with Kathi has resulted solely from her just claiming things – without any scriptural support. It has never been anything of serious scriptural concern……….. only the unsupported desires of a vivid imagination.Kathi, I love you, but surely even you can see that you have just been running around claiming things you can't possibly prove with scripture – just to claim them.
Hey, I've got another “Moses is God Almighty” comparison for you. I came across it in my Bible reading a couple of days ago:
Deuteronomy 11
13 So if you faithfully obey the commands I am giving you today—to love the Lord your God and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul— 14 then I will send rain on your land in its season, both autumn and spring rains, so that you may gather in your grain, new wine and oil.How is it that MOSES has the power to “send rain”? Can you imagine what you would do with this scripture if it was Jesus talking instead of Moses?
I believe this “Moses is God Almighty” proof text is more valid than any of your “Jesus is God Almighty” proof texts. Add that to the other “Moses is God” scriptures I've already showed you, and someone with the PERSONAL DESIRE to make Moses into God could be off and running in no time.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,09:42) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 10 2013,20:51) And yet is the Holy Spirit another son?
According to 2besee, “YES”.2B believes that the Holy Spirit is the original “eternal Son of God”, who works side by side with Jesus – a different Son of God.
Not side by side, Mike. I said “as one”.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 12 2013,10:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,10:42) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 10 2013,20:51) And yet is the Holy Spirit another son?
According to 2besee, “YES”.2B believes that the Holy Spirit is the original “eternal Son of God”, who works side by side with Jesus – a different Son of God. Yet he acknowledges that Jesus was brought forth BY the Holy Spirit, which I think would make Jesus the GRANDSON of God, and not the SON of God.
Anyway, your point is accurate. God is the one who taught human beings languages. Surely God knew how people would understand the word “son”, and what that word implied, long before He ever told us about His “son” Jesus Christ.
Surely He didn't expect us to come to the conclusion that all other sons come AFTER their fathers, but His Son didn't.
This is what happens with false teachings. People build on top of them. But as it is written, 'woe to the person who lays the stumbling block that others stumble over'.Woe woe woe to them.
t8,
Well, if you say that, then perhaps you had better remove the shepherd of hermas from your site which states the very same thing.
And actually no,
It is woe to them who say a word against the Holy Spirit.So perhaps you should be careful before you judge, what you judge. Have your facts straight first!
Here it is:
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/theshepherofhermas.htm
Quote:
“After I had written down the commandments and parables of the shepherd, the angel of repentance, he came to me and saith to me; “I wish to show thee all things that the Holy Spirit, which spake with thee in the form of the Church, showed unto thee. For that Spirit is the Son of God.”
“The Holy Pre-existent Spirit. Which created the whole creation, God made to dwell in flesh that He desired. This flesh, therefore, in which the Holy Spirit dwelt, was subject unto the Spirit, walking honorably in holiness and purity, without in any way defiling the Spirit.
When then it had lived honorably in chastity, and had labored with the Spirit, and had cooperated with it in everything, behaving itself boldly and bravely, He chose it as a partner with the Holy Spirit; for the career of this flesh pleased [the Lord], seeing that, as possessing the Holy Spirit, it was not defiled upon the earth.”
It was once considered as canon. The earliest church had no problem with it.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2013,09:00) So where in scriptures does it speak of the Son being conceived before creation? I mean, since all sons are conceived, right?
Kathysins wen Spirit beings are conceived
Quote (2besee @ Feb. 12 2013,14:19) And actually no,
It is woe to them who say a word against the Holy Spirit.
“Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!t8,
I am sure that you knew what I meant.“Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.”
And when I said to get your facts straight first, it was in regard to how you judged my belief as wrong.
Believing that the Holy Spirit was the Son of God is ancient. Maybe not to people of today though.
'Having a form of godliness, but denying it's power.'
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,12:51) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 11 2013,15:22) Jesus sent his son into the world.
He did? That's a new one on me!
Oh yeah. Sorry bout that.Although if we are to believe the Trinitarians in the following verse with regarding the God being Jesus, then yes Jesus has a son.
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true – even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
2besee, I said what I said because you implied that I was wrong. So I just showed you why I said woe and gave the scripture. You are seeing things that are not there.
Quote t8, Well, if you say that, then perhaps you had better remove the shepherd of hermas from your site which states the very same thing.
And actually no,
It is woe to them who say a word against the Holy Spirit.So perhaps you should be careful before you judge, what you judge. Have your facts straight first!
Mike,
you said:Quote You can't ask us to prove a negative. Actually I was asking you to show me some proof of what you believe, ya know…that the Son of God, being a Son would be…well here are your words:
Quote If Jesus is the SON of God, then God came first. No father and son have EVER existed from the same point in time. The father ALWAYS existed first, and then later begets a son. According to this logic, if Jesus is the Son of God, then Jesus was conceived if He really must be like every other father and son, according to you. I simply asked you to show me where in scriptures was He said to have been conceived before creation. You do agree that He was a Son before creation, don't you? You also agree that conception according to every other father and son that has ever existed, comes before birth, right?
The fact that you always seem to forget is that no father ever existed eternally except one. So see there are exceptions. And about existing from the days of old, well eternity would be from the days of old.
About your other rant…you once again act like I am saying that the Son is the first power of YHVH and not a second power.
Furthermore, you keep mentioning Jesus as the servant and the lamb. I notice you don't want to see Him as the Lord of all or the Lion of Judah. So, your bias is really not helping you see the 'root' of Jesse or the Lion of Judah. He is both the root and the shoot of Jesse as He is both the Lion of Judah and the Lamb of God as He is the Lord of all as well as the servant of God and man.
Like I said to Wakeup, according to the 'shoot' He is spoken of differently than according to the 'root.' It would also be the case with Lion/Lamb and Servant/Lord as well as God/Man.
Ask for discernment and let go of your bias…it is freeing to embrace all of who He is.
It takes guts to admit that you have been off balance here and stand proudly and declare that Jesus is and has been our God of and with God, the Father even from the beginning and that they are one.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2013,21:08) According to this logic, if Jesus is the Son of God, then Jesus was conceived if He really must be like every other father and son, according to you.
Kathi,The act of conception is an ACT. That means that at some point in time, it HAPPENS.
So at one point, there was just God. And then, through the ACT of conception (or whatever), there was Jesus.
The idea that Jesus was in the process of being conceived inside of God from eternity is not supported by any scripture, nor does it even make sense. Worse than that, it is actually contradicted by more than a few scriptures.
I realize that you believe things like this, because you WANT TO believe them. And that is why I gave you that little list in my last post – the list of things scripture DOES say. I think it would be good for you to deal with the things scripture DOES say, and build your understanding around those things.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2013,21:08) About your other rant…you once again act like I am saying that the Son is the first power of YHVH and not a second power.
Scripture doesn't speak of Jesus being the first, second, third, or even the hundred and twenty-second “power of YHWH”.So once again, if scripture doesn't say it, then don't teach it.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2013,21:08) Furthermore, you keep mentioning Jesus as the servant and the lamb. I notice you don't want to see Him as the Lord of all or the Lion of Judah.
That's simply not true. I see him as everything the Bible says he is. I focus more on “Lion” and “Lord” with the non-preexisters, who place Jesus lower than what the scriptures teach by claiming he was never anything except for a human being just like us.And I focus more on “Servant” and “Lamb” with Trinitarians, who place Jesus higher than what the scriptures teach by claiming he is, or is equal to, the God who brought him into existence.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2013,21:08) Like I said to Wakeup, according to the 'shoot' He is spoken of differently than according to the 'root.'
Kathi,There has never been more than one Jesus. There isn't “Jesus the Root”, and “Jesus the Branch”. They are both the same Jesus.
Notice in Revelation 22:16, where Jesus is speaking from the highest position he has ever had – at the right hand of our God and his God – yet still points out that he is BOTH the “Root” AND the “Offspring” of David.
It has always been the same Jesus.
Quote (2besee @ Feb. 11 2013,18:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2013,09:42) 2B believes that the Holy Spirit is the original “eternal Son of God”, who works side by side with Jesus – a different Son of God. Not side by side, Mike. I said “as one”.
But how can you say “as one” in one breath, and then immediately turn around and quote this scripture to t8:Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.Can't you see that this statement proves Jesus is someone OTHER THAN the Holy Spirit? How is it okay to speak against Jesus, but not okay to speak against the Spirit – IF THEY ARE “AS ONE”?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
