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Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2013,18:50) If you don't know Mike, then you should stop acting like you do when you say Jesus did not create one thing.
Kathi,I can only parrot the scriptures on this one:
Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us?1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came……. and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came…….Acts 4
24 “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
What these scriptures tell us is that ONE God, THE FATHER, created all things. And that ONE God did this THROUGH His holy servant Jesus Christ.
Jesus, as the holy servant OF the ONE God who created all things, cannot possibly BE the ONE God who created all things.
We know that this ONE God created all things THROUGH Jesus, and I don't know exactly what that means. But I do know that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN the ONE God who created all things.
Here is another of the many scriptural examples of Jesus being someone OTHER THAN the ONE God who created all things:
Isaiah 42
5 This is what the true God, the Lord, says – the one who created the sky and stretched it out, the one who fashioned the earth and everything that lives on it, the one who gives breath to the people on it, and life to those who live on it:6 “I, the Lord, officially commission you; I take hold of your hand. I protect you and make you a covenant mediator for people, and a light to the nations,
7 to open blind eyes, to release prisoners from dungeons, those who live in darkness from prisons.
It is clear that the God who created all things is speaking to a DIFFERENT person. That different person is Jesus.
Would you like to see some more examples, Kathi?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2013,20:14) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2013,18:54) Mike did you see that I bolded that part about the Father too? And the part about the Son?
No. But I see it now!
Sorry.Which one is EXPLICITELY said to be “maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible”?
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2013,18:54) I addressed Acts 3:13 already.
I apparently didn't see that either. Could you tell me which page your answer is on?
Mike,
Page 63. It would be easy to miss since I didn't mention Acts 13.
This is my answer:
“The God of our Fathers is YHWH who is God of gods and Lord of lords. The God of gods sent the Lord of lords to be both the Son of God and Son of Man to serve His purposes.”Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2013,06:45) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 28 2013,23:00) So it could well mean that it (creation) was done with Christ being the hands on and direct executor of Gods creation ,so to speak,and that the angel were only servants of God under Christ direction…………
Hi Pierre,Like I just said, I really don't know how to understand it. I will point out to you that angels and Jesus are also called gods in scripture. Your analysis seems to say that MANY gods created all things, when we know from scripture that one God created all things.
I do understand your point that Jesus and the angels did the “manufacturing at the plant”, but CHRYSLER ALONE “created” the car.
I simply don't know.
MIKEwen God told Moses to make the tabernacle and all the accessories according to what the Lord commanded ,
Nu 3:5 The LORD said to Moses,
Nu 3:6 “Bring the tribe of Levi and present them to Aaron the priest to assist him.
Nu 3:7 They are to perform duties for him and for the whole community at the Tent of Meeting by doing the work of the tabernacle.
Nu 3:8 They are to take care of all the furnishings of the Tent of Meeting, fulfilling the obligations of the Israelites by doing the work of the tabernacle.Ex 24:9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up
Ex 24:10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself.
Ex 24:11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.
Ex 24:12 The LORD said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and stay here, and I will give you the tablets of stone, with the law and commands I have written for their instruction.”
Ex 24:13 Then Moses set out with Joshua his aide, and Moses went up on the mountain of God.Ex 25:9 Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you.
Ex 25:40 See that you make them according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.
Ex 31:11 and the anointing oil and fragrant incense for the Holy Place. They are to make them just as I commanded you.”
Ex 32:34 Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”
Ex 33:11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
so angels always have been a part of the work that God plans to do he his after all the creator ,
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,it would not make sense that you create 100,000,000, angels for doing nothing ,this is not the way of God , neither for man nor angels ,
Ge 2:15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
God must have done the same with all his angels and the creation of the universe that we only see or can know maybe 10 % of if that ,
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 29 2013,23:01) it would not make sense that you create 100,000,000, angels for doing nothing ,this is not the way of God , neither for man nor angels ,
They were most definitely not created for nothing, Pierre. But God ALONE created all things. This is scripture.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2013,20:31) Here's another question for you:
Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.Kathi, who EXACTLY, is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the patriarchs?
And who is the servant OF that God?
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 28 2013,20:58) The God of our Fathers is YHWH who is God of gods and Lord of lords. The God of gods sent the Lord of lords to be both the Son of God and Son of Man to serve His purposes. That doesn't address the scripture, Kathi. Who, according to Acts 3:13, is the God of Abraham? And who is the servant OF the God of Abraham?
Please look at the words in the scripture, and address my question ACCORDING TO that scripture, and not your wishes.
Also, according to the Nicene Creed you posted:
Who is EXPLICITELY said to be “maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible”?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2013,07:23) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 29 2013,23:01) it would not make sense that you create 100,000,000, angels for doing nothing ,this is not the way of God , neither for man nor angels ,
They were most definitely not created for nothing, Pierre. But God ALONE created all things. This is scripture.
Mikeis not the act of creation different from the act of participate after the act of creation ,
like we know that God was alone at one time and then he created his son ,and then he uses his son to create all thing through him ,why
his his son now not a participant of God's creation even though he his not the one that create things ,and when he created the angels was not the son a participant and later did not the angels became participants in God's creation ,JUST LIKE A CHEF IN CUISINE HE CREATE BUT MANY ARE PARTICIPATING IN HIS CREATION EVEN IF IT IS ONLY PEELING THE POTATOES,OR THE ONIONS ECT,,,,
BUT IT HIS TRUE THAT ONLY THE CHEF CREATE THE NEW DISH.
IT IS in this way that I understand God's creation in scriptures
Pierre,
The way I understand it, Jesus doesn't have the power to create things out of nothing, like God can. No one but God has the power to create new things.
I don't believe Jesus himself “created” anything at all. I still don't know EXACTLY what it means that God created “through” Jesus, but I understand clearly these words from Tertullian:
He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.
Tertullian understands a clear difference between the ONE doing the actual creating, and the one through whom that creating was done.
I understand it the same way.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2013,07:56) Pierre, The way I understand it, Jesus doesn't have the power to create things out of nothing, like God can. No one but God has the power to create new things.
I don't believe Jesus himself “created” anything at all. I still don't know EXACTLY what it means that God created “through” Jesus, but I understand clearly these words from Tertullian:
He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.
Tertullian understands a clear difference between the ONE doing the actual creating, and the one through whom that creating was done.
I understand it the same way.
Mikethat his what I mean in my quote
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2013,20:32) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2013,18:50) If you don't know Mike, then you should stop acting like you do when you say Jesus did not create one thing.
Kathi,I can only parrot the scriptures on this one:
Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us?1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came……. and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came…….Acts 4
24 “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
What these scriptures tell us is that ONE God, THE FATHER, created all things. And that ONE God did this THROUGH His holy servant Jesus Christ.
Jesus, as the holy servant OF the ONE God who created all things, cannot possibly BE the ONE God who created all things.
We know that this ONE God created all things THROUGH Jesus, and I don't know exactly what that means. But I do know that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN the ONE God who created all things.
Here is another of the many scriptural examples of Jesus being someone OTHER THAN the ONE God who created all things:
Isaiah 42
5 This is what the true God, the Lord, says – the one who created the sky and stretched it out, the one who fashioned the earth and everything that lives on it, the one who gives breath to the people on it, and life to those who live on it:6 “I, the Lord, officially commission you; I take hold of your hand. I protect you and make you a covenant mediator for people, and a light to the nations,
7 to open blind eyes, to release prisoners from dungeons, those who live in darkness from prisons.
It is clear that the God who created all things is speaking to a DIFFERENT person. That different person is Jesus.
Would you like to see some more examples, Kathi?
Mike,
I have showed you elsewhere that the Jews understood that there were two powers of YHVH. The one God that created them consisted of two powers. The second power is the Son, the Word of YHVH/the Arm of YHVH, the YHVH of hosts/Lord of lords…several names were used for the second power of YHVH, even YHVH is one of the names.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 04 2013,20:30) Also, according to the Nicene Creed you posted: Who is EXPLICITELY said to be “maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible”?
The Father.Who does the creed specifically say by whom all things are made?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 04 2013,20:27) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 26 2013,20:31) Here's another question for you:
Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.Kathi, who EXACTLY, is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the patriarchs?
And who is the servant OF that God?
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 28 2013,20:58) The God of our Fathers is YHWH who is God of gods and Lord of lords. The God of gods sent the Lord of lords to be both the Son of God and Son of Man to serve His purposes. That doesn't address the scripture, Kathi. Who, according to Acts 3:13, is the God of Abraham? And who is the servant OF the God of Abraham?
Please look at the words in the scripture, and address my question ACCORDING TO that scripture, and not your wishes.
In Acts 13, the God of Abraham, et al is the Father…one of the powers of YHVH. The Servant of Abraham is the second power of YHVH as the incarnated God/Man.Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 05 2013,21:35) The second power is the Son, the Word of YHVH/the Arm of YHVH……..
You mean like Cyrus, who is also called the “arm of YHWH”? Was Cyrus the “second power”?Jesus is never called “YHWH” in the scriptures, because that is not his name. And it is not his name because he ISN'T YHWH – but instead the SON OF YHWH. Oh, and he is also the SERVANT OF YHWH.
Kathi, you didn't address the actual point of my post, which was: WHY do you suppose Jesus is MANY TIMES in scripture listed as someone OTHER THAN the ONE God who created all things? Please address this question DIRECTLY.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 05 2013,21:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 04 2013,20:30) Also, according to the Nicene Creed you posted: Who is EXPLICITELY said to be “maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible”?
The Father.
Very good. Now go and teach the same.Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 05 2013,21:37) Who does the creed specifically say by whom all things are made?
Well, since the creed was originally written by Eusebius in the Greek language, the word used was most likely “dia”.The people who translated the creed from Greek to English should have translated the word “dia” as “THROUGH”, not as “BY”.
How can we know this? Read the green words of Tertullian in my recent post to Pierre. This was a man who understood the Greek language of the day. And surely his statement would not make sense if he said, He who creates is one, and he BY WHOM the thing is created is another.
So because of Tertullian's completely accurate and logical statement, we can know that the Greek-speaking people of the early AD centuries understood that all things were created THROUGH Jesus, and not BY him.
So to answer your question: The creed specifically says that Jesus is the one THROUGH whom all things are made.
This is another of the few things the creed got right.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 05 2013,21:40) In Acts 13, the God of Abraham, et al is the Father…one of the powers of YHVH. The Servant of Abraham is the second power of YHVH as the incarnated God/Man.
So why do you think they spoke about the God (not “Gods”) of Abraham, and listed Jesus as someone OTHER THAN Him?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 06 2013,18:59) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 05 2013,21:35) The second power is the Son, the Word of YHVH/the Arm of YHVH……..
You mean like Cyrus, who is also called the “arm of YHWH”? Was Cyrus the “second power”?Jesus is never called “YHWH” in the scriptures, because that is not his name. And it is not his name because he ISN'T YHWH – but instead the SON OF YHWH. Oh, and he is also the SERVANT OF YHWH.
Kathi, you didn't address the actual point of my post, which was: WHY do you suppose Jesus is MANY TIMES in scripture listed as someone OTHER THAN the ONE God who created all things? Please address this question DIRECTLY.
Mike,
you asked:Quote You mean like Cyrus, who is also called the “arm of YHWH”? Was Cyrus the “second power”? You are just being ridiculous now. Is everyone called lord also YHVH? If you had the Spirit of God giving you understanding, you wouldn't have to ask such a foolish question.
Quote Jesus is never called “YHWH” in the scriptures, because that is not his name. And it is not his name because he ISN'T YHWH – but instead the SON OF YHWH. Oh, and he is also the SERVANT OF YHWH. So are you saying that YHVH is the Father's name? If so, then it is the name given to the Son since the Father gave His name to His Son. John 17
Quote Kathi, you didn't address the actual point of my post, which was: WHY do you suppose Jesus is MANY TIMES in scripture listed as someone OTHER THAN the ONE God who created all things? Please address this question DIRECTLY. Because the name of Jesus is the name of the second power of YHVH through whom the first power of YHVH worked and not the first power of YHVH.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2013,15:32) What these scriptures tell us is that ONE God, THE FATHER, created all things. And that ONE God did this THROUGH His holy servant Jesus Christ.
Exactly and this is clear in scripture. But men like to change the truth of God into a lie. For what reason or reward we will know one day when the hearts of all are shown in the light.For now I can only guess what joy they get from misrepresenting the truth. If they do it unconsciously, then it shows that at some time they erred and it has been so long that they cannot even see it anymore.
Clearly God created all through him and in him.
For we are His workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
THROUGH/BY him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
“BY the word (logos) of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath (pneuma) of his mouth all their host (dynamis).”
But some say that it is BY not THROUGH. Yet look at the next scripture.
And by that will, we have been made holy THROUGH/BY the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
If you took the BY option, it would not be saying that Jesus created holiness in us. It is obvious from the context that it is THROUGH this sacrifice that we are holy.
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