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So then, TWO completely separate Almighty Gods, who “unite”, or “combine” into ONE God?
Which one? “Unite”? Or “Combine”? And after the uniting or combining, are we still left with TWO Almighty Gods? Or do they unite/combine into ONE being?
Also, there are many posts awaiting responses from you – if you're interested. I only mention it because I notice you HAVE responded on those threads – but just not to my posts. Anyway, it's up to you.
This is what happens Mike when people start to babble. They create doctrines that belong to Babylon. Their fruit is confusion.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 14 2012,14:24) I've offered the fact that Jesus prays for the disciples also to be “one”. Surely that doesn't mean the disciples will become some “Echad Unity Disciplehead”, right? Instead, Jesus prays to his God for the disciples to become “one in purpose”, IMO.
I don't know of any Binatarians, Trinitarians, and Quadrinitarians that talk about that oneness.They prefer to keep it to the Father and Jesus, that way it fits nicely with their doctrines. But the fact that we can be one too, certainly puts their view into great doubt.
It is a pity that they cannot even be honest with themselves because at the end of the day, it is their soul, their life, and their destiny that they are responsible for.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 11 2012,19:38) Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” Would Jesus lie? No.
I agree with Jesus.
And Jesus never lied when he said we can be one too.How convenient to forget that he said that too.
Quote (david @ Dec. 12 2012,15:54) This is my least favourite trinity proof. Why do people keep using it? New Living Translation (©2007)
I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one–as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.English Standard Version (©2001)
that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
May they all be one, as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You. May they also be one in Us, so the world may believe You sent Me.
Agreed.But they nearly always make their case based on misconceptions.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,05:54) Quote But for us sane people, it means “one in purpose”. The oneness that Jesus speaks of gets Him accused of blasphemy and eventually crucified because He is making Himself out to be God.
John 10
30“I and the Father are one.”31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
But you don't believe Jesus when he said that he was the son of God. You would rather believe as those Jews that he was claiming to be God.We believe what Jesus said in defense of this accusation and you believe what the Jews said.
Plain as that.
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 19 2012,17:11) I don't know of any Binatarians, Trinitarians, and Quadrinitarians that talk about that oneness. They prefer to keep it to the Father and Jesus, that way it fits nicely with their doctrines.
I'm not sure if Kathi forgot about this thread, but I'm still waiting for the scriptures that support her understanding that “one with the Father” means “Echad Unity Godhead”.As you've pointed out, it will be hard for her to make such a claim about the Father and Jesus being “one” – without allowing also for such a claim to be made about the disciples who will be “one” with them.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2012,19:49) So then, TWO completely separate Almighty Gods, who “unite”, or “combine” into ONE God? Which one? “Unite”? Or “Combine”? And after the uniting or combining, are we still left with TWO Almighty Gods? Or do they unite/combine into ONE being?
Also, there are many posts awaiting responses from you – if you're interested. I only mention it because I notice you HAVE responded on those threads – but just not to my posts. Anyway, it's up to you.
They have always been united as one being in the corporate sense like the church is one body in the corporate sense.God is made up of more than one being but in the corporate sense He is one being.
The church is made up of more than one body but in the corporate sense, the church is one body.
Do you see the word play? If you understand what 'in the corporate sense' means, then you can understand how two somethings can be one something 'in the corporate sense.'
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2012,20:36) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 19 2012,17:11) I don't know of any Binatarians, Trinitarians, and Quadrinitarians that talk about that oneness. They prefer to keep it to the Father and Jesus, that way it fits nicely with their doctrines.
I'm not sure if Kathi forgot about this thread, but I'm still waiting for the scriptures that support her understanding that “one with the Father” means “Echad Unity Godhead”.As you've pointed out, it will be hard for her to make such a claim about the Father and Jesus being “one” – without allowing also for such a claim to be made about the disciples who will be “one” with them.
The disciples are not one AS them but IN them.If two are in complete unity, they cooperate together to accomplish the rule over whatever is under their authority (if anything is under their authority), they speak and act in agreement with a common purpose and aren't divided on issues.
Would you say that seems like a reasonable statement, Mike?
Since Jesus only wants to do…and in fact does, all what the Father wills for Him to do, then this would fit as a complete unity.
Do you really need verses to show you that Jesus does all the Father wills for Him to do?
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 19 2012,18:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,05:54) Quote But for us sane people, it means “one in purpose”. The oneness that Jesus speaks of gets Him accused of blasphemy and eventually crucified because He is making Himself out to be God.
John 10
30“I and the Father are one.”31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
But you don't believe Jesus when he said that he was the son of God. You would rather believe as those Jews that he was claiming to be God.We believe what Jesus said in defense of this accusation and you believe what the Jews said.
Plain as that.
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Jesus confirmed this accusation by going on and on about Him having God as His real Father. Like begets like.The Jews understood that there were two powers of YHWH and that each power was considered YHWH in some sense. They called the second power, “The Word of the LORD” and I believe they were understanding that Jesus was claiming to be that second power who always speaks God, His Father's words.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 19 2012,18:12) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 11 2012,19:38) Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” Would Jesus lie? No.
I agree with Jesus.
And Jesus never lied when he said we can be one too.How convenient to forget that he said that too.
We can be 'one' as believers. They are 'one' as who the believers believe in. The Father and the Son are not the believers but who are believed in. The saints are not who are believed in but they are who believe in the Father and the Son.Two groups:
1. Those who believe the truth
2. Those who are believed to be the truth.Blindness keep people saying if the Father and the Son are one as God, then those of us who are one in them must be God also.
Isn't that silly?
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 19 2012,18:08) This is what happens Mike when people start to babble. They create doctrines that belong to Babylon. Their fruit is confusion.
Sorry t8, but that seems so arrogant coming from one that I have clearly corrected on many points of confusion regarding scriptures as well as false statements about me.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2012,18:11) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 12 2012,09:54) Quote But for us sane people, it means “one in purpose”. The oneness that Jesus speaks of gets Him accused of blasphemy and eventually crucified because He is making Himself out to be God.
John 10
30“I and the Father are one.”31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
It is properly translated, …..because you, being a man, make yourself to be a god.We can be assured that this is the correct translation because of how Jesus then answers those same Jews:
If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?
Ie: If these “lesser ones” are called gods in your very own scriptures, then why not me? After all, I'm greater than they were.
And even though that was the intent of Jesus' words, he didn't actually go as far as to call himself a god. He instead left it implied by the fact he was God's Son.
Ie: God's SON = a different god – NOT the very same God he is the SON of.
Mike,Each time you see the word “God” in John 5:18 there is a definite article with it in the Greek.
John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
The Jews knew that the Son of God would be equal to the God, not a god.
you say:
Quote Ie: God's SON = a different god – NOT the very same God he is the SON of.
True, one is God the Father
and the other is God the Son
yet both are God in their own position…Father or Son, and at the same time, together as one God (in the corporate sense).Quote (t8 @ Dec. 19 2012,18:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 14 2012,14:24) I've offered the fact that Jesus prays for the disciples also to be “one”. Surely that doesn't mean the disciples will become some “Echad Unity Disciplehead”, right? Instead, Jesus prays to his God for the disciples to become “one in purpose”, IMO.
I don't know of any Binatarians, Trinitarians, and Quadrinitarians that talk about that oneness.They prefer to keep it to the Father and Jesus, that way it fits nicely with their doctrines. But the fact that we can be one too, certainly puts their view into great doubt.
It is a pity that they cannot even be honest with themselves because at the end of the day, it is their soul, their life, and their destiny that they are responsible for.
Then you don't read much about the early church father's writings on the subject of the oneness of the saints or ask others what they think about this. I don't know anyone that dodges the topic of the 'oneness' of the believers?There are the saints who are one as the believers in the truth,
and then there are those who are believed in as the truth who are one.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2012,18:24) Kathi, Do you agree with the Trinitarian's claim that being “one” with God means Jesus is a second PERSON in the one BEING of God Almighty?
Do you agree with the Oneness claim that it means Jesus actually IS the Father God?
Their use of one 'being' is to be understood of in the corporate sense, Mike.Much like saints are one 'body' and that 'one body' is understood of in the corporate sense.
I don't agree with the Oneness claims that Jesus is actually the Father, you should know that.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2012,19:45) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,13:16) So, if Jesus made Himself out to be a god…who is He making Himself out to be a god of, Mike?
Nobody, Kathi. Actually, Jesus was simply claiming the truth – that he was the only begotten Son of God. The rest of it was inplied by the Jews, who most likely figured that the Son of God would naturally be a god himself. Therefore, by claiming he was the begotten Son of God, the Jews implied he was making himself out to be a god.But being called a god in Biblical terminology did not automatically mean that one had worshippers who thought that particular god created them, or what not.
When Manoah referred to the angel of Jehovah as “a god”, who do you suppose Manoah thought that angel was the god OF?
Being a god could just as well mean being a mighty one. The people on the island of Malta concluded that Paul was a god when he didn't die from the snake bite. It doesn't mean they concluded that Paul had a following of worshippers that he did things for when they prayed to him.
In the OT, human judges, demons, and angels were all called gods. And even in the NT, the word is used of Paul and Herod.
Bottom line, Jesus being a god means he is a powerful being with supernatural abilities. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that anyone worships him as “their God”.
Surely Jesus himself never asked anyone to worship him. Instead, he directed all thanks and worship to his own God, (who he told us was also OUR God).
Mike,
Who or what is Jesus a theos of in scriptures?
Who and or what is Jesus the kyrios of in scriptures?Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 21 2012,00:01) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 19 2012,18:12) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 11 2012,19:38) Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” Would Jesus lie? No.
I agree with Jesus.
And Jesus never lied when he said we can be one too.How convenient to forget that he said that too.
We can be 'one' as believers. They are 'one' as who the believers believe in. The Father and the Son are not the believers but who are believed in. The saints are not who are believed in but they are who believe in the Father and the Son.
And this is the crux of what I'm trying to get out of you, Kathi. WHERE in scripture do you come up with your idea that God and Jesus being “one” is DIFFERENT than the disciples being “one” WITH them.Here we go again, but even MORE slowly this time, so you can grasp it:
John 17
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,This PRAYER Jesus makes to HIS God and OUR God is not just for the Apostles, but for everyone who believes in Jesus. Are we in agreement so far?
21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.
The words “as you are in me and I am in you” EQUATE to “we are one”. Jesus is praying to his God and our God that those who believe in the name of Jesus may be one, just as Jesus and his own God are one.
Are we in agreement?
May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
The Greek word “en” can either be translated as “in” or as as “with”. The word is translated as “with” 145 times in the NET Bible, and 140 times in the KJV. But either way, if the equivalent of Jesus “being one with” his God is the fact that he is “in” his God, and his God is “in” him, then wouldn't the fact that those who believe in Jesus are “in them” equate to those who believe in Jesus “being one with” them?'
If not, then WHY not?
22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:
Here we learn that the God of Jesus GAVE Jesus some glory. We learn that Jesus, in turn, GAVE that same glory to those who believe in him. Jesus' prayer to his God and our God is that those who believe in him be “one” – JUST AS – Jesus and his God are one.
23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Jesus will be “in” them, just as the Father is “in” Jesus. So, if the Father being “in” Jesus makes God and Jesus an “Echad Unity Godhead”, then wouldn't Jesus being “in” those who believe in him make Jesus and them an “Echad Untiy Christhead”?
Jesus finishes up by praying to his God and our God for a “complete unity”, so that the world will know God loves those who believe in His Christ JUST AS He also loves that Christ of His.
Kathi, I'm seriously not seeing ANYTHING that would support your claim of TWO separate Almighty Gods, or even that Jesus is EQUAL TO his God and our God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 20 2012,23:39) God is made up of more than one being but in the corporate sense He is one being. The church is made up of more than one body but in the corporate sense, the church is one body.
I don't believe you'll find any Trinitarian or early church father support that God is “made up of more than one being”, but let's consider your comparison statements:The church is made up of more than one BEING but in the corporate sense, the church is one BEING.
Does your comparison still work?
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 20 2012,23:50) The disciples are not one AS them but IN them.
Read John 17:21, two posts above this one.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 20 2012,23:50) If two are in complete unity, they cooperate together to accomplish the rule over whatever is under their authority (if anything is under their authority), they speak and act in agreement with a common purpose and aren't divided on issues. Would you say that seems like a reasonable statement, Mike?
Absolutely, I agree with that, Kathi.Apply the words of your first paragraph to any particular President and Vice President who worked well as a team. And then tell me if working well together somehow turned the Vice President INTO the President he served.
Did we ever, in American history, have TWO Presidents, and no Vice President………… because the servant BECAME the master?
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