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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 13 2012,15:01) Kathi, I read your last two posts, but there is nothing in them worth responding to. You are just rehashing your same old stories – despite the fact they don't address this current point that kills your doctrine completely.
Yes that is the truth. And no amount of rehashing or repeating is ever going to make it right.No matter how much a person might say that 8-6=7. It will never be right.
Which one do you believe?
John 1:3
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Kathi 1:3
yet for Kathi there is but one God, the Father and Son, who are both one God essense and from whom all things came and through all thing came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, and Lord Father from all things came and through all things came and from and through whom we live.Which one do you believe: John 1:3 or Kathi 1:3?
I am swaying toward John's view, but a hard call to make don't you think?
Yep. The scripture clearly speaks of one “God” AND one “Lord”. Kathi mixes it up in her mind and thinks Paul is saying there is one God/Lord, who is the combo of Father and Son.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 10 2012,21:08) If I go for the Combo, I might as well upgrade that to a large lie while I am at it.
Yeah, that's the #3 Combo, otherwise known as the Trinity Combo.It comes with three sides, but they're all lumped into one.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 10 2012,23:38) Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” Would Jesus lie? No.
I agree with Jesus.
I agree with Jesus too, Kathi. But being one with the Father can have SO MANY different meanings, can't it?For example, the Trinitarians claim it means Jesus and his God are the same exact BEING, but different PERSONS.
For you, it means Jesus and his God are different Gods, but that they rule as a united Godhead from heaven.
For Charles and the other Oneness believers, it means that Jesus actually IS the Father.
But for us sane people, it means “one in purpose”.
Which one of those explanations above would best explain the disciples being “one”?
Will they all merge into one being, yet remain seperate persons within that being?
Will they be seperate persons, but merge together to rule along with Jesus as an “Echad Unity Disciplehead”?
Will they actually be EACH OTHER?
Or do you suppose Jesus' prayer to his God and our God refers to the disciples being “one in purpose”, as the church?
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 11 2012,16:38) Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” Would Jesus lie? No.
I agree with Jesus.
This is my least favourite trinity proof. Why do people keep using it?New Living Translation (©2007)
I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one–as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.English Standard Version (©2001)
that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
May they all be one, as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You. May they also be one in Us, so the world may believe You sent Me.Hi J42:
Jesus stated that we should honor him as we honor the Father, but no, he did not say nor does the scripture say that we should worship him as God.
Quote John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Quote John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, verily, verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote But for us sane people, it means “one in purpose”. The oneness that Jesus speaks of gets Him accused of blasphemy and eventually crucified because He is making Himself out to be God.
John 10
30“I and the Father are one.”31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”Marty,
Yes, you should never worship Jesus just because you should. That would just be religion. It is an expression of a contrite heart.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 12 2012,09:54) Quote But for us sane people, it means “one in purpose”. The oneness that Jesus speaks of gets Him accused of blasphemy and eventually crucified because He is making Himself out to be God.
John 10
30“I and the Father are one.”31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
It is properly translated, …..because you, being a man, make yourself to be a god.We can be assured that this is the correct translation because of how Jesus then answers those same Jews:
If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?
Ie: If these “lesser ones” are called gods in your very own scriptures, then why not me? After all, I'm greater than they were.
And even though that was the intent of Jesus' words, he didn't actually go as far as to call himself a god. He instead left it implied by the fact he was God's Son.
Ie: God's SON = a different god – NOT the very same God he is the SON of.
Kathi,
Do you agree with the Trinitarian's claim that being “one” with God means Jesus is a second PERSON in the one BEING of God Almighty?
Do you agree with the Oneness claim that it means Jesus actually IS the Father God?
Mike,
I don't believe that the Trinitarian's claim that being 'one' with God means that Jesus is a second person in the one being of God Almighty. They believe in a unity of three eternal persons in an almighty Godhead. I believe in two persons and their spirit in an eternal God unity.
You should know that I don't believe that Jesus is the Father.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2012,18:11) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 12 2012,09:54) Quote But for us sane people, it means “one in purpose”. The oneness that Jesus speaks of gets Him accused of blasphemy and eventually crucified because He is making Himself out to be God.
John 10
30“I and the Father are one.”31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
It is properly translated, …..because you, being a man, make yourself to be a god.We can be assured that this is the correct translation because of how Jesus then answers those same Jews:
If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?
Ie: If these “lesser ones” are called gods in your very own scriptures, then why not me? After all, I'm greater than they were.
And even though that was the intent of Jesus' words, he didn't actually go as far as to call himself a god. He instead left it implied by the fact he was God's Son.
Ie: God's SON = a different god – NOT the very same God he is the SON of.
So, if Jesus made Himself out to be a god…who is He making Himself out to be a god of, Mike? Do you care to answer or will you avoid it? In other words, do you have the 'balls' to admit who Jesus is the theos of??? Or will you continue to hide your head in the sand again? You can't seem to answer this question directly, I've noticed and so I don't think you will have the 'balls' to do it now.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,13:12) Mike, I don't believe that the Trinitarian's claim that being 'one' with God means that Jesus is a second person in the one being of God Almighty. They believe in a unity of three eternal persons in an almighty Godhead. I believe in two persons and their spirit in an eternal God unity.
You should know that I don't believe that Jesus is the Father.
Traditional Trinitarians believe in only ONE being who is God Almighty, Kathi. Ask Keith or Jack.Or consider these words from the Athanasian Creed:
So the Father is God, the Son is God,
and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet there are not three gods; but one God.Trinitarians believe in only ONE GOD – consisting of THREE PERSONS.
Anyway, the point of those questions was to show you some of the many different ways people understand the words, “I and the Father are one”.
What scriptural proof do you have to offer as support to YOUR way of understanding those words (ie: Jesus and his God are “one” in an “Echad Unity Godhead”)?
I've offered the fact that Jesus prays for the disciples also to be “one”. Surely that doesn't mean the disciples will become some “Echad Unity Disciplehead”, right? Instead, Jesus prays to his God for the disciples to become “one in purpose”, IMO.
Because of this support from the scriptures about the disciples being “one”, this is also how I understand Jesus and his own God being “one”, (ie: one in purpose).
Now I'm asking for YOUR supporting scriptures that Jesus being “one” with his own God means what you claim it means.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,13:16) So, if Jesus made Himself out to be a god…who is He making Himself out to be a god of, Mike?
Nobody, Kathi. Actually, Jesus was simply claiming the truth – that he was the only begotten Son of God. The rest of it was inplied by the Jews, who most likely figured that the Son of God would naturally be a god himself. Therefore, by claiming he was the begotten Son of God, the Jews implied he was making himself out to be a god.But being called a god in Biblical terminology did not automatically mean that one had worshippers who thought that particular god created them, or what not.
When Manoah referred to the angel of Jehovah as “a god”, who do you suppose Manoah thought that angel was the god OF?
Being a god could just as well mean being a mighty one. The people on the island of Malta concluded that Paul was a god when he didn't die from the snake bite. It doesn't mean they concluded that Paul had a following of worshippers that he did things for when they prayed to him.
In the OT, human judges, demons, and angels were all called gods. And even in the NT, the word is used of Paul and Herod.
Bottom line, Jesus being a god means he is a powerful being with supernatural abilities. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that anyone worships him as “their God”.
Surely Jesus himself never asked anyone to worship him. Instead, he directed all thanks and worship to his own God, (who he told us was also OUR God).
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2012,19:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,13:12) Mike, I don't believe that the Trinitarian's claim that being 'one' with God means that Jesus is a second person in the one being of God Almighty. They believe in a unity of three eternal persons in an almighty Godhead. I believe in two persons and their spirit in an eternal God unity.
You should know that I don't believe that Jesus is the Father.
Traditional Trinitarians believe in only ONE being who is God Almighty, Kathi. Ask Keith or Jack.Or consider these words from the Athanasian Creed:
So the Father is God, the Son is God,
and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet there are not three gods; but one God.Trinitarians believe in only ONE GOD – consisting of THREE PERSONS.
Anyway, the point of those questions was to show you some of the many different ways people understand the words, “I and the Father are one”.
What scriptural proof do you have to offer as support to YOUR way of understanding those words (ie: Jesus and his God are “one” in an “Echad Unity Godhead”)?
I've offered the fact that Jesus prays for the disciples also to be “one”. Surely that doesn't mean the disciples will become some “Echad Unity Disciplehead”, right? Instead, Jesus prays to his God for the disciples to become “one in purpose”, IMO.
Because of this support from the scriptures about the disciples being “one”, this is also how I understand Jesus and his own God being “one”, (ie: one in purpose).
Now I'm asking for YOUR supporting scriptures that Jesus being “one” with his own God means what you claim it means.
Mike,
You said:Quote Traditional Trinitarians believe in only ONE being who is God Almighty, Kathi. Ask Keith or Jack. Or consider these words from the Athanasian Creed:
So the Father is God, the Son is God,
and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet there are not three gods; but one God.Trinitarians believe in only ONE GOD – consisting of THREE PERSONS.
I don't see the word 'being' in the Athanasian Creed. I see that the creed says that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God and that would make three who are God. Therefore the 'one God' refers to a corporate sense. Like 'man' can be, for example:
Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
We know that the 'one new man' is made up of several that are man. 'Man' is in the corporate sense.
Quote Anyway, the point of those questions was to show you some of the many different ways people understand the words, “I and the Father are one”. Do you agree that when Jesus said “I and the Father are one,” He meant it to have one meaning and not many?
Please answer that.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,23:16) I don't see the word 'being' in the Athanasian Creed.
Then ask the people at your Trinitarian church if they think God is one BEING, Kathi. Ask your pastors. I've already clarified this with both Keith and Jack. And YES, they both readily admit that, as Trinitarians, they believe God is one BEING.(Don't you remember Jack going as far as to say me and my father were technically “one BEING” – just to keep his doctrine afloat?)
So face it, girl, TRUE Trinitarians don't believe in TWO COMPLETELY SEPARATE GODS, like you do. They believe in ONE God, who is a SINGLE BEING that consists of three individual persons.
I know you try to lump yourself in with them any chance you get, thinking there is strength in numbers – but the truth of the matter is that you are all alone with your own imagined doctrine. The Trinitarians would laugh at your concept of TWO separate Almighty Gods. You like to quote the secular writings of early church fathers. Have you ever read in any of them about TWO completely separate Almighty Gods?
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,23:16) Therefore the 'one God' refers to a corporate sense.
So your “God” is now a “Corporate Giant”, ruling over the smaller companies? God is not a “Corporation”, Kathi.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 13 2012,23:16) Do you agree that when Jesus said “I and the Father are one,” He meant it to have one meaning and not many?
I've already told you WHAT I think Jesus meant, and listed the scriptures that support the WHY of my understanding.I believe I'm waiting for you to show me the scriptures that support YOUR understanding.
Mike,
When I say that the one God that is made up of God the Father, God the Son, and their Holy Spirit is one 'God' in the corporate sense I mean corporate to mean definition #4:cor·po·rate
[kawr-per-it, -prit] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of, for, or belonging to a corporation or corporations: a corporate executive; She considers the new federal subsidy just corporate welfare.
2.
forming a corporation.
3.
pertaining to a united group, as of persons: the corporate good.
4.
united or combined into one.
5.
corporative.
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