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Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,13:11) Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,13:04) I have to say it: Your ontological question is anti-logical. I choose to sidestep it and focus on things that are actually in the Bible.
I don't respect that approach at all.If you're contention is that Yeshua is a less than God on the basis that He has a God, and inferiority in nature is the only meaningful context to apply to this, then it's legitimate for me to challenge you (and any other Arian) to define the logical basis of your argument. So….
How, logically, does Yeshua having His Father as His God prove that He is lesser in His being?
I understand your frustration. You seem to be creating an argument (and wanting an argument) against something I haven't argued.I understand why you like this argument. It seems a false dichotomy.
Inferiority of nature–why must this be the only way to prove that God and Jesus are not a trinity?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,13:17) Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,13:07) Is 1:18. What data?
The data in the passages that reference:1. The nature of the sonship of Yeshua
2. The nature of the paternity of the Father
3. Yeshua having His Father as His God
4. The nature of the Father and Son beings
Does any of this Data answer the ontological question. Isn't #4 the actual question we are asking?
I'm not sure any of this would conclusively answer the ontological problem.Ya, I thought about it for a couple minutes. None of those things can actually resolve this question. Which is why I sidestep it and focus on the thousands of scriptures, 87% of which lean towards anti-Trinidadian views.
Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,13:21) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,13:11) Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,13:04) I have to say it: Your ontological question is anti-logical. I choose to sidestep it and focus on things that are actually in the Bible.
I don't respect that approach at all.If you're contention is that Yeshua is a less than God on the basis that He has a God, and inferiority in nature is the only meaningful context to apply to this, then it's legitimate for me to challenge you (and any other Arian) to define the logical basis of your argument. So….
How, logically, does Yeshua having His Father as His God prove that He is lesser in His being?
I understand your frustration. You seem to be creating an argument (and wanting an argument) against something I haven't argued.I understand why you like this argument. It seems a false dichotomy.
Inferiority of nature–why must this be the only way to prove that God and Jesus are not a trinity?
Okay David (and Mike)…..exactly what does Yeshua having His Father as His God prove??If not ontological inferiority – what is the point you are trying make here?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 09 2012,16:40) Kathi – I'm impressed with you steadfast perseverence and accurate handling of scripture in the face some quite spiteful opposition from the henotheists and their variants. Nice one.
Gracias Paul! I'm so glad you are back…don't let them steal your joy!!Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 09 2012,20:20) There's no attempt to define relative “natures” of the Father and Son within a scriptual framewark, and no attempt to link these to the argument you've posited about Yeshua having His Father as His God. try again.
I'm not quite sure what any of that means, but it really doesn't matter. It is not I who has to “try again”, Paul. I've already gotten the answer I set out to get.You and I and Kathi all agree that the God of Jesus is the Father. And we all agree that Jesus said his God was also OUR God.
Anything else you add to it is useless to me. I know that I worship the same God Jesus worshiped. I know that my God is also Jesus' God. This is scriptural, and there is no amount of fancy words that will change it.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,13:43) Okay David (and Mike)…..exactly what does Yeshua having His Father as His God prove?? If not ontological inferiority – what is the point you are trying make here?
Mike,
We are interested in your response to this, when we have this answer from you – we have a platform to advance this discussion.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 09 2012,20:43) Okay David (and Mike)…..exactly what does Yeshua having His Father as His God prove?? If not ontological inferiority – what is the point you are trying make here?
Uh, it seems obvious that the Almighty God who created the heavens, the earth, and all things in them wouldn't have a God of His own.If Jesus DOES have a God of his own (who is also the same God as we have), then it should be easy to understand that Jesus can't possibly BE the Most High God.
Also, it seems just as obvious that if God Almighty is ONE BEING, then part of that one being can't have as his God a different part of the same being. (Consider that when you speak about your God, one of the foremost synonyms is “Creator”. Your God is your Creator, right? Why would it be any different for Jesus? So how can one part of God be the Creator of a different part of God?)
Paul, Jesus worshiped God, just like we do. Jesus said that his God was also our God. Jesus calls Him “my God”, just like we call Him “my God”. This really isn't that hard.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,14:10) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 09 2012,20:43) Okay David (and Mike)…..exactly what does Yeshua having His Father as His God prove?? If not ontological inferiority – what is the point you are trying make here?
Uh, it seems obvious that the Almighty God who created the heavens, the earth, and all things in them wouldn't have a God of His own.If Jesus DOES have a God of his own (who is also the same God as we have), then it should be easy to understand that Jesus can't possibly BE the Most High God.
Also, it seems just as obvious that if God Almighty is ONE BEING, then part of that one being can't have as his God a different part of the same being.
Paul, Jesus worshiped God, just like we do. Jesus said that God he worshiped is the same God we worship. Jesus calls Him “my God”, just like we call Him “my God”. This really isn't that hard.
This is nothing but a collection of assumptions. Your whole argument rests on unproven premises!Until you define your tenets, you have no point to make at all.
Mike,
Quote You and I and Kathi all agree that the God of Jesus is the Father. Paul and I agree that the God of Jesus is His Father but you believe the God of Jesus is His creator. There lies a big difference. Where is it that Jesus called God 'His creator?'
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,14:04) You and I and Kathi all agree that the God of Jesus is the Father.
Yes…and what does this prove?Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,13:43) Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,13:21) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 10 2012,13:11) Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2012,13:04) I have to say it: Your ontological question is anti-logical. I choose to sidestep it and focus on things that are actually in the Bible.
I don't respect that approach at all.If you're contention is that Yeshua is a less than God on the basis that He has a God, and inferiority in nature is the only meaningful context to apply to this, then it's legitimate for me to challenge you (and any other Arian) to define the logical basis of your argument. So….
How, logically, does Yeshua having His Father as His God prove that He is lesser in His being?
I understand your frustration. You seem to be creating an argument (and wanting an argument) against something I haven't argued.I understand why you like this argument. It seems a false dichotomy.
Inferiority of nature–why must this be the only way to prove that God and Jesus are not a trinity?
Okay David (and Mike)…..exactly what does Yeshua having His Father as His God prove??If not ontological inferiority – what is the point you are trying make here?
I didn't really start out trying to make a point. I was sort of just making fun of the word ontological.The word “father” and the word “son” both indicate relationship.
Words have meaning. The meanings of these words as used in the bible aren't necessarily precisely how we define them in dictionaries, but, we all understand that a father is different from a son. They are not the same. If you have a son, ask him if you and he are the same. He will say: “you are bigger.” “You are older.” I don't know why we have to discuss ontological differences when there is no conceivable way of even pretending to u d'état and that.
Yes and my son and I are equivalent in our nature, so subordination does equate to ontological disparity. We've been here before I think.
An eternal Father would presume the eternal existence of a Son or there would be no eternal 'Father.' It is typical for a Son to exist within His parent before being begotten/brought forth.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 09 2012,21:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,14:10) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 09 2012,20:43) Okay David (and Mike)…..exactly what does Yeshua having His Father as His God prove?? If not ontological inferiority – what is the point you are trying make here?
Uh, it seems obvious that the Almighty God who created the heavens, the earth, and all things in them wouldn't have a God of His own.If Jesus DOES have a God of his own (who is also the same God as we have), then it should be easy to understand that Jesus can't possibly BE the Most High God.
Also, it seems just as obvious that if God Almighty is ONE BEING, then part of that one being can't have as his God a different part of the same being.
Paul, Jesus worshiped God, just like we do. Jesus said that God he worshiped is the same God we worship. Jesus calls Him “my God”, just like we call Him “my God”. This really isn't that hard.
This is nothing but a collection of assumptions. Your whole argument rests on unproven premises!Until you define your tenets, you have no point to make at all.
Okay, then let's discuss my “assumptions”.1. Does it seem logical to you that the MOST HIGH God would have a God of his own? YES or NO?
2. If Jesus DOES have a God of his own, does it seem logical to you that Jesus could be the MOST HIGH God? YES or NO?
3. If God is ONE entity, does it seem logical to you that a PART of that one entity would worship a DIFFERENT part of the same entity as his God? YES or NO?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2012,22:35) An eternal Father would presume the eternal existence of a Son or there would be no eternal 'Father.'
What was that scripture again that speaks of the “eternal Father”?Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2012,21:35) Paul and I agree that the God of Jesus is His Father…………..
That's all that matters, Kathi. Don't go adding things into it. If the God of Jesus is the Father, and the God of us is the same as the God of Jesus, then the God of us is also the Father.You can try to bring up the creation thing, but it doesn't prove anything. JESUS HIMSELF said that our God was his God, Kathi. He didn't add, except for I wasn't created, did he? And what would that prove anyway? The disciples WERE created, right? And Jesus' God is the disciples' God, right?
It seems to me that you are trying hard to avoid an embarrassing situation by completely changing the subject to, “Was Jesus Created?”
We can go through those 8 scriptures that prove Jesus is a creation again if you want to, but it doesn't have any bearing on the fact that our ONE AND ONLY God is also Jesus' ONE AND ONLY God.
If HIS God is the Father alone, then OUR God is the Father alone.
Jesus' God was not His creator, so Jesus' God is not your God because your God was Jesus' creator. He can't be both The creator of Jesus and not the creator of Jesus before the ages, Mike.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2012,23:45) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2012,22:35) An eternal Father would presume the eternal existence of a Son or there would be no eternal 'Father.'
What was that scripture again that speaks of the “eternal Father”?
They are both the 'First and the Last.' There is no other possibility than both being eternal, thus there is an eternal Father and an eternal Son.
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