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Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2012,10:10) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2012,16:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,22:16) Paul is not identifying the Father as the one YHWH or the one God in the fullest sense of the word.
Hmmmm………………..
How do you know? From the other things Paul says about our “one God, the Father”, it seems to me that he considers Him to be “God in the fullest sense of the word”.
What scriptural proof do you have to make the claim you made?
Paul clearly tells us that of all the powers in heaven and on earth that are for us, there are only two who are for us and only one of them is the Father. Obviously one of the two powers for us would not be the fullness of the powers that are for us.1 Cor 8:6
kathiwitch heaven did Christ received to master over
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2012,22:47) Didn't the Son empty Himself and become lower than the angels yet wasn't He involved in creating the angels? The Lord who was involved in the very creation of the angels became lower than the angels and took on the nature of a servant and appearance of man. Therefore, He was not Lord according to His flesh until the Father gave Him all authority after His resurrection. He was however Lord according to His divinity. Elizabeth called Jesus her Lord when He was in the womb of Mary, before acting in the flesh and gaining victory over sin. Obviously, He was already Lord in some sense before He became lower than the angels. Even on the day of His incarnated birth, the angels called Him 'Lord.' Luke 2:11
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.Luke 1:43
“And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?So, if the Son was Lord in the womb of Mary when He was in the state of being lower than the angels, He must have been as least as high or higher than that before being made lower than the angels.
Kathi,All of your information supports what I said. Jesus has always been Lord, ever since his God MADE him Lord. Therefore, Jesus wasn't ETERNALLY the “Lord part of your Echad God”.
Well Mike,
He was eternally YHWH the Son before creation. His YHWH status did not depend on being Lord over something but instead it depended on being eternal.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2012,23:03) Context tells you that Jesus is not a king of kings like Neb and Art.
Yes, context tells us that Jesus, as a king, is much HIGHER than Neb and Art were as kings. Similarly, context tells us that Jehovah, as King of kings, is much HIGHER than Jesus as King of kings. How does that answer my point, Kathi? My point was that two people are not necessarily EQUAL, or a COMPOUND UNITY, just because the same title is used of both of them. Do you agree with that point?Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2012,23:03) Paul says that we have one God the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ.
Yes he does. He also teaches us with plain, easy to understand words, all through his writings, that there is a HIERARCHY. At the TOP of the hierarchy is our ONE and ONLY Almighty God, the Father. THEN, at the next LOWER position, is the person who our God MADE our Lord. That second person is NOT our ONE and ONLY Almighty God, the Father – but someone OTHER THAN God whom God decided to APPOINT as our Lord.THEN, at the next LOWER position is man, who is under both our ONE and ONLY Almighty God AND ALSO UNDER the one our God appointed as our Lord.
THEN comes woman, at an even LOWER level.
Is it hard for you to see this hierarchy, Kathi? Now tell me: Why, in a scripture where Paul is clearly mentioning the hierarchy of the two highest powers by listing the HIGHEST (our ONE and ONLY Almighty God) AND the NEXT HIGHEST (our High Lord Jesus Christ), would you assume he is talking about only ONE high power that is a combo of them both?
Kathi, I'm getting close to the point of just walking away from you. You arguments aren't even valid arguments anymore. They are just things you claim, with no scriptural support whatsoever. It's like me reading a sentence that speaks of the President of the United States of America, AND the Prime Minister of England, and out of the blue, with no logical reason at all, I just started claiming that they TOGETHER form the “compound unity” of “President of the United States of America”. It would be clear to any SANE person that the sentence was talking about TWO, completely different people, beings, and positions, right? So how does a SANE person even answer my NONSENSICAL claim that they are a compound unity just because I WANT them to be?
How does a sane mind answer to a crazy mind? Normal people wouldn't even bother answering to my crazy-ass claim. They would just walk away, rolling their eyes, thinking that I needed psychiatric help. I think it's time for me to walk away from your crazy-ass claims. After all, that's all they are. They are nothing but ILLOGICAL claims made by an ILLOGICAL person. And the only reason they are made in the first place is because that person WANTS something illogical to be the truth.
I can't deal with it anymore. I've been reading your discussion with t8 off and on, and I just walk away from the computer, shaking my head in amazement, and rolling my eyes in bewilderment at the things you claim – AND at the fact that you try to use scriptures that don't even come close to what you're claiming as support for these things you claim.
I mean really Kathi, you take a simple statement from Paul about our KING and his PRINCE, and try to form that simple statement into some unscriptural compound entity – just because that's the way you WANT it to be. And the concoction you come up with flies directly in the face of the teachings of, not only the scriptures as a whole, but also the teachings of the one named Jesus that you are trying to form into HIS GOD AND OUR GOD
Think about that, Kathi. WHO did Jesus say was both HIS GOD AND OUR GOD? Get it? OUR ONE AND ONLY ALMIGHTY GOD is the SAME EXACT ONE as JESUS' ONE AND ONLY ALMIGHTY GOD.
So if the God of JESUS is NOT some compound unity of TWO Gods, then the God of US is also NOT some compound unity of TWO Gods.
We and our Lord HAVE THE SAME EXACT GOD, Kathi! What part of your own Lord's words are you not understanding? What is your malfunction? Where exactly is the message getting jumbled up in your mind?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2012,23:03) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Kathi, is it possible that Jehovah is a Lord of other lords AS WELL AS Jesus being a Lord of other lords? Jehovah the Son is Lord of lords and is called Jesus upon His incarnation, so the answer is yes.
First of all, you have neither proof nor reason to suspect that he hasn't been named Jesus since his God and our God first created him as the first of His works.Secondly, I'll rephrase the question since you seem to be learning some games from jammin:
Kathi, is it possible that the Most High God Jehovah the Father has the title “God of gods and Lord of lords”……………….
AND…………………..
Jesus, as someone OTHER THAN our Most High God Jehovah, is a DIFFERENT PERSON who ALSO has the title “Lord of lords”?
Is it possible that our ONE and ONLY God…………
AND…………………
His holy SERVANT Jesus Christ, can BOTH have similar titles WITHOUT being a compound unity?
YES or NO?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2012,15:16) Well Mike,
He was eternally YHWH the Son before creation. His YHWH status did not depend on being Lord over something but instead it depended on being eternal.
First, you have no scriptural support whatsoever to back your claim that Jesus was “eternally YHWH the Son”.Secondly, your answer here proves that Jesus wasn't “eternally the Lord of lords part of the compound unity of God”. If he was MADE Lord by our God and his God, then he hasn't ALWAYS BEEN a Lord, has he?
Your “eternal God of gods and Lord of lords” claim just went bye-bye.
Mike,
The YHWH Echad, the eternal unity, is not dependent on roles, or titles, but it is dependent on eternal existence. The Shema doesn't say eternal God of gods or eternal Lord of lords but it does indicate two powers who are eternal, one as the God of gods and one as the Lord of lords and at the time the Shema was first introduced, the Father was the God of gods and the Son was the Lord of lords.
Mike,
Quote THEN, at the next LOWER position is man, who is under both our ONE and ONLY Almighty God AND ALSO UNDER the one our God appointed as our Lord. THEN comes woman, at an even LOWER level.
In a husband/wife relationship the husband is the head of the wife but yet they are one and yet they are equal.
Do you disagree with this statement?In the Father/Son relationship, the Father is the head of the Son, yet they are one and yet they are equal.
Do you see how the first statement is true about the husband and wife being equal yet one is in authority over the other, and also they are one.
Therefore, that passage certainly does not lend any credibility to challenging the unity of anybody because one is higher in authority.
Btw, be my guest and walk away from our discussions if you wish. I am really not learning anything from you anyway. It just seems like I'm trying to talk to a Pharisee although I think a Pharisee at least had the mind of a first century Jew who had a conciousness of two powers of YHWH and understood the significance of Jesus claiming that God was His Father which meant that He was claiming equality with God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2012,03:13) Pierre,
Is there a 'witch heaven?'
kathiyes it must be Paul talks about a third heaven ,I do not know if there are more but for sure their are two closer than the third like 1 and 2
Pierre,
Do you know what a witch is?Definition of WITCH
1
: one that is credited with usually malignant supernatural powers; especially : a woman practicing usually black witchcraft often with the aid of a devil or familiar : sorceress — compare warlock
2
: an ugly old woman : hag
3
: a charming or alluring girl or woman
4
: a practitioner of Wicca
5
: witch of agnesihttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/witch
Now, really I know you are not talking about a heaven where witches live. I was just kidding with you.
YHWH the Son is the ruler with the Father over all heavens and earth, to answer your question.
Also, Pierre,
The word you meant is 'which' not 'witch.'
Those two words have completely different meanings.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2012,18:16) Paul and I both say that there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. I explained that in the context that speaks of one God being the Father, then Jesus would be the one Lord. Both together with their Spirit would be the one YHWH Echad.
Paul is not identifying the Father as the one YHWH or the one God in the fullest sense of the word.
Be honest Kathi.You also say that Jesus is God and that The Father is Lord.
Thus with your view, Paul could have equally said that “for us there is one God Jesus and one Lord the Father”.
Because you have little to no distinction between the Father and son, you could equally say what I have in quote marks above.
You think that Paul is true and you are true. We can only assume then that you think Paul was only partially giving us the truth when he said, “for us there is one God the Father and one Lord the Lord Jesus Christ”.
But thankfully we have Kathi who gives us the complete truth that Paul for some reason missed out on.
Who wants to thank Kathi for enlightening us?
Please go right ahead.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2012,13:26) Also, Pierre,
The word you meant is 'which' not 'witch.'
Those two words have completely different meanings.
You obviously knew what he was getting at.
But I suppose by correcting him in this lesser matter, you give the impression that you are smarter than him and thus are also correcting him on the greater issues.However he has some good points that I have yet to see you answer.
Kathi, a husband and wife are 2 beings that become one flesh.
They are still 1 human + 1 human which equals 2 humans.So let's apply this unity to your unity which you argue proves your unity.
The Father and Jesus are together God/YHWH.
The Father is God and the son is God.
1 God + 1 God still makes 2 Gods.If you say the following, you still get 2 gods:
The Father is God and the unity of the Father and son is God.
That is still 1 God + 1 God which equals?
A further breakdown reveals that these 2 Gods are 2 persons and that one of the Gods is 1 person and the other one is 2 persons.I can sense a new creed is about to be born.
“One is God and two is God and yet not 2 Gods but one.
One is not the other and the other is not the combination of the two.”How does that creed sound. If you like it we could call a council and make it official.
Then we could create an army to silence any dissenters.t8,
Kathi openly admits she believes in and worships two, completely separate Almighty Gods.
Her belief is that God Almighty the Son and God Almighty the Father are TWO separate BEINGS, yet they unite together to rule over heaven and earth as the ONE Highest Authority.
In that way, she differs from the traditional Trinitarians. They believe in ONE Almighty God, made up of three separate PERSONS. Kathi doesn't believe that. She believes in TWO, completely SEPARATE Almighty Gods.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2012,16:16) In a husband/wife relationship the husband is the head of the wife but yet they are one and yet they are equal.
Do you disagree with this statement?
Kathi, ALL beings are equal in some ways. This is not a good analogy to support your point.Humans and God are equal in that we both think thoughts.
Humans and Jesus are equal in that they've walked the earth as human beings.
Humans and angels are equal in that they are both lower than God.
Humans and birds are equal in that they both have two eyes.
Humans and cockroaches are equal in that they both breathe air.
Are you getting my point?
So yes, Jesus and the God who created him are equal in that they both rule over others. And in that they both are spirit beings. And in many other ways as well. But that doesn't mean they are EQUAL – equal, any more than us walking the earth makes us EQUAL – equal to Jesus.
Are you saying that you don't agree with Paul, who said that men are the head of women, Jesus is the head of men, and God is the head of Jesus?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2012,16:16) Btw, be my guest and walk away from our discussions if you wish.
I know I came at you pretty hard in that last post, Kathi. But in my defense, it IS frustrating at times when you're dealing with people who just claim things because they WANT those things to be true – without any regard for whether the things they claim make any sense, or whether they're scriptural.1. Kathi, WHO EXACTLY is the Almighty God of Jesus?
2. Is it possible for two or more beings to share the same or similar titles WITHOUT it meaning that they are a compound unity? YES or NO?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 07 2012,13:00) t8, Kathi openly admits she believes in and worships two, completely separate Almighty Gods.
Then she teaches people to break the commandments.
In particular the most important one.Matthew 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.Two powers of YHWH does not break the commandment. This was a common understanding amongst the Jews of the first century according to the canonical literature as well as the non-canonical literature.
If there is one power with another that is the exact representation of the first, then we have two powers that are equal. This is not hard.
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