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Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2012,16:21) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 02 2012,00:08) Paul of Tarsus: For us there is one God the Father.
Kathi of America: For me there is one God the Father + Son/
KJ of America: For me there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit
Kathi. Whom shall I believe. Kathi of America, KJ of America, or Paul of Tarsus.Would appreciate an answer here.
Kathi agrees with Paul who says:
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.and Eph 4
1Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.So, you should agree with Kathi and Paul
KJ agrees with Paul also when God is used in its general fullest sense. KJ believes in a compound unity.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2012,18:57) I'm still waiting for the scripture that says God was “eternally a Father”.
Mike,
You have to use your reasoning skills with verses like where both are called 'the First and the Last.' Also, you will not find a verse that says “today I have become your Father” technically. Some translations translate the Psalms and Hebrews verse like that but the word 'Father' is not in that verse but instead it was incorrectly implied.Mike,
Quote Are eternal beings ever said to have been “born”? Yes…Jesus.
Quote How about “begotten”? Yes…Jesus.
Quote “Created”? No…Jesus is not said to be created.
Quote “Brought forth as the first of someone else's works”? Yes, begotten, same thing…Wisdom.
Quote Are they ever said to be “sons”? Yes…the only begotten God, the only begotten Son.
Quote We all agree that God the Father has existed from etenity, right? I don't know about 'all' but I do.
Quote Is God the Father ever said to have been “born”, “created”, “begotten”, or “brought forth as the first of someone else's works”? Is He the “son” of anyone? No and no. If He were born or begotten or brought forth as the first of someone else's works He would be the begotten God, not God the Father.
Jesus is never said to have been created? I take it that you no longer consider “wisdom” in Provebs 8 to be speaking about Jesus then?
It seems we BOTH agree that God the Father is from eternity, and that He is never said to have been “born”, “begotten”, “brought forth into existence”, “have origins”, or be a “son”.
So if the One we AGREE ON as being from eternity has none of these “qualities”, then what SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT do you offer to make us believe that one who DOES have these “qualities” can also be from eternity?
After all, we would not believe that ANYBODY ELSE who had even ONE of these qualities existed from eternity, right? So why should we break these common sense guidelines in the case of God's servant Jesus?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,20:08) 4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Are WE not the “one body”, Kathi? Are WE then included in this “Divine Echad” of God?If not, then your bias is showing once again.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,20:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2012,18:57) I'm still waiting for the scripture that says God was “eternally a Father”.
Mike,
You have to use your reasoning skills…………….
So in other words, “NO”, there is no scripture that says God was “eternally a Father”?Didn't think so.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2012,21:38) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2012,20:08) 4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Are WE not the “one body”, Kathi? Are WE then included in this “Divine Echad” of God?If not, then your bias is showing once again.
Only the eternal Lord and God are part of the YHWH Echad.Jesus is the First and the Last, the King of the Jews, and the redeemer of all mankind.
The God of Israel is the First and the Last, King of the Jews and the redeemer of all mankind.Isaiah 44:6
“This is what the LORD says–Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.Mike,
Quote Jesus is never said to have been created? I take it that you no longer consider “wisdom” in Provebs 8 to be speaking about Jesus then? Wisdom wasn't created, it was brought forth.
Quote It seems we BOTH agree that God the Father is from eternity You agree that God the Father is from eternity, then so is the Son. Apart from there being an eternal Son there is no eternal Father. The existence of a Son makes one a Father. Apart from the existence of an offspring, there is no father.
Oh. So then your “one body, one Lord, one God, and one Spirit” verse doesn't really teach what you claim it teaches, right?
If it did, then the one body would be an equal member with the one Lord, one God, and one Spirit.
Perhaps you should try to refute t8's point using a different scripture, since this one doesn't work for you.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2012,16:00) God is the Father in most contexts in the NT and probably in the OT.
God in the general, fullest sense, is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
God is Jesus in some contexts.
YHWH is sometimes the Father, sometimes the Son and sometimes the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
When the Father is said to be the only true God, the Son is the only true Lord and both, together with their Spirit are part of the YHWH Echad, the eternal unity.
This is basically the Trinity Doctrine and closely matches KJ and Is.Where exactly do you differ might be a better question?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2012,16:08) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2012,16:21) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 02 2012,00:08) Paul of Tarsus: For us there is one God the Father.
Kathi of America: For me there is one God the Father + Son/
KJ of America: For me there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit
Kathi. Whom shall I believe. Kathi of America, KJ of America, or Paul of Tarsus.Would appreciate an answer here.
Kathi agrees with Paul who says:
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Okay so you agree with Paul.Let's run this one again.
Paul of Tarsus: For us there is one God the Father.
Kathi of America: For me there is one God the Father and one God the Son.Um sorry Kathi. This is quite different. You even appear to ignore basic math too.
Paul is saying that God is the Father. And Jesus is Lord.
We also know from the rest of scripture that the following is true.
1) That the Father is the only true God and that the only true God sent Jesus into the world.
2) That Jesus was made Lord and Christ by God.
3) That every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.Here is what you are implicating:
1) That the Father is the only true God along with the other true God Jesus.
2) That Jesus was made both Lord and Christ, and that he has always been God too.
3) That every tongue will confess that Jesus is also God and YHWH and one Spirit with the Father.Your blindness and shame is uncovered for all to see. Your creed is nowhere close to scripture and what Jesus and Paul taught.
It appears that you are the only one here who thinks that what you are saying is reasonable.
I for one think you have gone completely bonkers. You have strayed from the truth to the degree that you oppose main tenants of the faith without even realizing it. This is likely due to you being handed over to that which you were seeking. People go crazy because they start doing crazy things with small things and it escalates from there.
I am not sure that anyone who reads this can take you seriously after the witness you have given. You need to repent and pray for forgiveness for assuming that you can change the truth of God to your lie.
You are drunk on your own doctrine and cannot reason or think clearly.
Well, I differ in that I don't see from scriptures the Holy Spirit as an individual person with a separate will and mind. I see the Holy Spirit as the omnipresence and 'inner person' so to speak of both the Father and the Son. I see the Holy Spirit as eternally their 'inner person' and omnipresence. Our spirit is called our 'inner person' and that is where I get that term.
I am open to see the Holy Spirit as an individual power but I can't say that I have been shown that from scriptures.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2012,23:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2012,16:08) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2012,16:21) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 02 2012,00:08) Paul of Tarsus: For us there is one God the Father.
Kathi of America: For me there is one God the Father + Son/
KJ of America: For me there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit
Kathi. Whom shall I believe. Kathi of America, KJ of America, or Paul of Tarsus.Would appreciate an answer here.
Kathi agrees with Paul who says:
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Okay so you agree with Paul.Let's run this one again.
Paul of Tarsus: For us there is one God the Father.
Kathi of America: For me there is one God the Father and one God the Son.Um sorry Kathi. This is quite different. You even appear to ignore basic math too.
Paul is saying that God is the Father. And Jesus is Lord.
We also know from the rest of scripture that the following is true.
1) That the Father is the only true God and that the only true God sent Jesus into the world.
2) That Jesus was made Lord and Christ by God.
3) That every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.Here is what you are implicating:
1) That the Father is the only true God along with the other true God Jesus.
2) That Jesus was made both Lord and Christ, and that he has always been God too.
3) That every tongue will confess that Jesus is also God and YHWH and one Spirit with the Father.Your blindness and shame is uncovered for all to see. Your creed is nowhere close to scripture and what Jesus and Paul taught.
It appears that you are the only one here who thinks that what you are saying is reasonable.
I for one think you have gone completely bonkers. You have strayed from the truth to the degree that you oppose main tenants of the faith without even realizing it. This is likely due to you being handed over to that which you were seeking. People go crazy because they start doing crazy things with small things and it escalates from there.
I am not sure that anyone who reads this can take you seriously after the witness you have given. You need to repent and pray for forgiveness for assuming that you can change the truth of God to your lie.
You are drunk on your own doctrine and cannot reason or think clearly.
Paul and I both say that there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.I explained that in the context that speaks of one God being the Father, then Jesus would be the one Lord. Both together with their Spirit would be the one YHWH Echad.
Paul is not identifying the Father as the one YHWH or the one God in the fullest sense of the word.
t8,
It is like you are almost getting it but then you don't. It really is simple and most Christians agree that the Father and Son are both YHWH. I don't know why you think I am the only one.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2012,18:10) Well, I differ in that I don't see from scriptures the Holy Spirit as an individual person with a separate will and mind. I see the Holy Spirit as the omnipresence and 'inner person' so to speak of both the Father and the Son. I see the Holy Spirit as eternally their 'inner person' and omnipresence. Our spirit is called our 'inner person' and that is where I get that term. I am open to see the Holy Spirit as an individual power but I can't say that I have been shown that from scriptures.
Okay so you differ on that point.So you are teaching basically the Trinity but with the Holy Spirit being the combination of the Father and Son and not the third person.
Since we have already proven in these forums that the Trinity is false, we can essentially use over 90% of the same reasons we have given to disprove you too.
On the differing point, I don't even need to address that. Most of the Trinity Debates apply to you and you lost this one the moment you began this.
The only interesting thing about you is the witness of how people are led into false doctrine regarding God. It was kind of a mystery to me the thinking that led people from believing that the Father is God to a Trinity. You have demonstrated about 200 years of Church history into apostate teaching in a space of maybe 20 months with all your thoughts on how you arrived at this made naked for all to see.
My conclusion is that people believe such things because they love not the truth, but love their own wisdom more.
This is a curse that afflicts them for not loving the truth just as Evolution is a curse to those that deny God's existence.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2012,18:20) t8,
It is like you are almost getting it but then you don't. It really is simple and most Christians agree that the Father and Son are both YHWH. I don't know why you think I am the only one.
You are basically a Trinitarian so you are not the only one as you say, correct. But you stand alone in that instead of 3 persons there are 2. That is why I think Binity aptly describes your teaching. It is like the Trinity in almost every way except the number of members. The Binity is disproved for the same reason that the Trinity is. The difference in number is not that necessary to disprove either. So long as God is not exclusively the Father, then the same basic tried and tested arguments apply to disprove you.Let's recap.
Quadrinity: EDJ
Trinity: KJ, IS, etc
Binity: LU
One God the Father: US, T8, MB, etcThere we have it folks.
t8,
Quote Paul is saying that God is the Father. And Jesus is Lord. And scripture says this:
Deut 10
14“Behold, to YHWH your God belong heaven and the highest heavens, the earth and all that is in it. 15“Yet on your fathers did the LORD set His affection to love them, and He chose their descendants after them, even you above all peoples, as it is this day. 16“So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer. 17“For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.You, t8 believes that YHWH is ONLY the God of gods and not also the Lord of lords. I believe that YHWH is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords.
You, t8, forget that the Son and the Father created all things in heaven and on earth, you think the Son would not be Lord over all creation in the beginning even though nothing was created apart from Him and all things were created by Him and for Him.
You, t8, forget that the Son was made lower than the angels and made a man, whom God the Father made Lord. Now the Son, who all things were created by and for and was naturally Lord of these things from the beginning, is also Lord in His humanity.So, t8, I'm trying to help you and some day you will have to account for all the personal insults to YHWH who is our Lord of lords, not just our God of gods.
Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
You said binity is two persons, one being, didn't you? You said that you and your wife were not a binity. If you call what I believe as a binity then you are talking out of two sides of your mouth and are a double minded man.
I do not claim binity or trinity as I have said clearly. Stop labeling me that.
You can call me a Christian or one who believes in the YHWH Echad, the eternal unity.Kathi. YHWH made Jesus both Lord (kurios) and Christ.
It really is that simple.Of course, the one who made him Lord over his creation would be over him.
But for us and creation, God made Jesus our Lord. And the Father is God.
Ephesians 1:17
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
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