The Christ of God

Participant

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Aug. 10 2008,06:21)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 09 2008,17:18)

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Aug. 09 2008,21:54)

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 09 2008,09:18)

If God can create woman from Man in the beginning why not the same God can not create man from woman alone ?

Amen! Adam. I totally agree.
No mysticism needed!!

Is the process of simply conception “mysticism”? Why?

Many are offended that God could father his own Son. I don't understand why?

Mandy

It maybe because of the way you're describing it.
It has paganistic overtones.

Greek/Roman/Egyptian Pagans & Polytheists have for centuries been teaching that their gods “fathered” children with mortal women via the use of “male agents”.

However Luke & Matthew don't even come close to describing anything similar;
Gabriel explained to Mary that she would miraculously conceive a son! And because the conception/begetting is miraculous, that is, no “male agent” has touched her; the child will be call “the Son of GOD”.

Personally, I don't believe that there was any “miraculous insemination” or such like.

The same GOD that made the first sinless couple;
i.e. made Adam from dust & Eve from Adam's rib;
is more than capable of making a new, sinless man from Mary's egg;
Almighty GOD, Creator of Heaven and earth,
is more than capable of making a “male” from Mary's XX chromosomes!
Genetically impossible? Yes, I guess so.
That is why Christ's conception is miraculous in more ways than one!! It truly was a miracle.
No “male agent” involved!

Perhaps.

But where do you think Jesus inherited his divine attributes if God did not contribute to his Son as a Father?

Which came first – pagen belief or truth?

:;):

August 10, 2008 at 8:53 pm#100975

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 09 2008,22:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 10 2008,04:47)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 09 2008,12:07)

LU…..Where does it say Jesus is the Author of Faith, Abraham had Faith and Jesus wasn't even born yet, as well as David and many others.

peace……….gene

Gene,
If it did say He was the author of faith would you then believe. I doubt it. Read my post again and you will find where it says that He is the “author of faith.”

Okay, I will copy it for you since you missed it the first time in that post, you might miss it again. Here it is:

Heb 12:2
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the AUTHOR AND PERFECTOR of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

By the way the Son of God did exist before Abraham was born.

John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
NASU
LU

LU…Jesus could be very well be the author and perfecter of our faith, but he is not the one who gave the Faith, that is God the Father who gives Faith, Just like it say For God has given us all a measure of Faith. Your making Jesus the creator of Faith when in fact it is GOD Himself who gives Faith, in this you are robbing God of His Glory something Jesus never did, The scripture you quoted was to show us that, that is the Goal of our existence is to have the same Faith as Jesus has, not that He himself is the originator of our Faith, as you are trying to makes it out to be. Anyone who does not see Jesus exactly as we, are does not see Him. God didn't take a God and perfect Him, He took an ordinary Human being and Perfected Him. For He learned obedience by the things He SUFFERED and Having LEARNED it, that means He didn't have it prior to His life one earth. You making Jesus the object of you worship at the expense of the Father who was the one really doing the work, Jesus said I of myself can do nothing it is The Father that dwells in me, He doth the works. Jesus also was nothing to be desirous of in appearance , He bore (carried our infirmities in his body) and they were not talking about the town when they said Physician heal thyself either in my opinion. You trying to make him into a superhuman being is wrong He was at best only average not some big weightlifter as you presume. Remember the sum of God's Word is truth.

Hi Gene,

Quote

God didn't take a God and perfect Him, He took an ordinary Human being and Perfected Him.

Jesus was made perfect. He didn't become perfect or need to be perfected. He needed to learn obedience and that doesn't mean He was disobedient at one time and had to learn to be obedient.

The Son of God was the author of faith, and the perfector of faith. I think there is more than one kind of faith. One is from the Father given to us so that we can respond with the faith first exhibited in the Son of God. One is given to us which leads to a relationship of believing and trusting God a faith response. It was the faith that responds to God that I believe Jesus authored and perfected.

I am not taking anything away from the Father by my magnifying His Son. I am glorifying the Father. I said myself that Jesus could not do anything of Himself. You misrepresent my words.

August 10, 2008 at 10:06 pm#100986

Adam Pastor

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 10 2008,19:57)

Which came first – pagan belief or truth?

:;):

Perhaps I should add, that centuries before Christ, pagans had been teaching such things.

Hence, Christ's virginal conception is not a “copy” of a pagan tale; but rather something totally unique, performed by the Almighty GOD of truth.

August 11, 2008 at 1:03 am#101002

Proclaimer

Participant

Yes LU. In all things good God is the giver. It is up to us to respond.

If God gives faith, then it is up to us to respond in faith.
If God loves us, then we are able to respond in love.
If God provides for us, then surely we should also give of ourselves.

August 11, 2008 at 1:11 am#101004

942767

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 11 2008,08:53)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 09 2008,22:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 10 2008,04:47)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 09 2008,12:07)

LU…..Where does it say Jesus is the Author of Faith, Abraham had Faith and Jesus wasn't even born yet, as well as David and many others.

peace……….gene

Gene,
If it did say He was the author of faith would you then believe. I doubt it. Read my post again and you will find where it says that He is the “author of faith.”

Okay, I will copy it for you since you missed it the first time in that post, you might miss it again. Here it is:

Heb 12:2
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the AUTHOR AND PERFECTOR of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

By the way the Son of God did exist before Abraham was born.

John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
NASU
LU

Hi Gene,

Quote

God didn't take a God and perfect Him, He took an ordinary Human being and Perfected Him.

Jesus was made perfect. He didn't become perfect or need to be perfected. He needed to learn obedience and that doesn't mean He was disobedient at one time and had to learn to be obedient.

I am not taking anything away from the Father by my magnifying His Son. I am glorifying the Father. I said myself that Jesus could not do anything of Himself. You misrepresent my words.

Hi LU:

This is what the scripture states:

Quote

Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered

August 11, 2008 at 3:32 am#101009

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 10 2008,21:11)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 11 2008,08:53)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 09 2008,22:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 10 2008,04:47)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 09 2008,12:07)

LU…..Where does it say Jesus is the Author of Faith, Abraham had Faith and Jesus wasn't even born yet, as well as David and many others.

peace……….gene

Gene,
If it did say He was the author of faith would you then believe. I doubt it. Read my post again and you will find where it says that He is the “author of faith.”

Okay, I will copy it for you since you missed it the first time in that post, you might miss it again. Here it is:

Heb 12:2
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the AUTHOR AND PERFECTOR of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

By the way the Son of God did exist before Abraham was born.

John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
NASU
LU

Hi Gene,

Quote

God didn't take a God and perfect Him, He took an ordinary Human being and Perfected Him.

Jesus was made perfect. He didn't become perfect or need to be perfected. He needed to learn obedience and that doesn't mean He was disobedient at one time and had to learn to be obedient.

I am not taking anything away from the Father by my magnifying His Son. I am glorifying the Father. I said myself that Jesus could not do anything of Himself. You misrepresent my words.

Hi LU:

This is what the scripture states:

Quote

Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered

Hi 94,
This is also what the scripture states:
From Hebrews 5:

8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation

Hebrews 2:10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

2:8
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Before His sufferings, He was not imperfect, His sufferings fulfilled Him to be perfect for being the author of salvation which required suffering, not to become a perfect man.

He was never imperfect and never disobedient to His Father.

We are imperfect and can never become perfect. It is the Son's perfection that saves us and not our own.

August 11, 2008 at 4:27 am#101013

942767

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 11 2008,15:32)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 10 2008,21:11)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 11 2008,08:53)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 09 2008,22:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 10 2008,04:47)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 09 2008,12:07)

LU…..Where does it say Jesus is the Author of Faith, Abraham had Faith and Jesus wasn't even born yet, as well as David and many others.

peace……….gene

Gene,
If it did say He was the author of faith would you then believe. I doubt it. Read my post again and you will find where it says that He is the “author of faith.”

Okay, I will copy it for you since you missed it the first time in that post, you might miss it again. Here it is:

Heb 12:2
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the AUTHOR AND PERFECTOR of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

By the way the Son of God did exist before Abraham was born.

John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
NASU
LU

Hi Gene,

Quote

God didn't take a God and perfect Him, He took an ordinary Human being and Perfected Him.

Jesus was made perfect. He didn't become perfect or need to be perfected. He needed to learn obedience and that doesn't mean He was disobedient at one time and had to learn to be obedient.

I am not taking anything away from the Father by my magnifying His Son. I am glorifying the Father. I said myself that Jesus could not do anything of Himself. You misrepresent my words.

Hi LU:

This is what the scripture states:

Quote

Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered

Hi 94,
This is also what the scripture states:
From Hebrews 5:

8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation

Hebrews 2:10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

2:8
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Before His sufferings, He was not imperfect, His sufferings fulfilled Him to be perfect for being the author of salvation which required suffering, not to become a perfect man.

He was never imperfect and never disobedient to His Father.

We are imperfect and can never become perfect. It is the Son's perfection that saves us and not our own.

Hi LU:

Jesus was born into this world an infant just as we were. The difference is that when he was tempted to sin he did not stray as all of the rest of humanity did.

However, although he never sinned, it was because he applied the Word of God in his daily life, and so, he was perfected through obedience to the Word of God. The scripture states that “he learned obedience through the things that he suffered”.

For us as born again believers “perfected” means mature Christians. It does not mean that we do not sin along the way. Thank God for the blood that Jesus shed so that we can be forgiven when we fall short. However, we also become mature Christians as we learn obedience to the Word of God through the things that we suffer in this life. We could not become like Jesus if we did not have a place to put God's Word into practice.

However, there is the following scripture:

Quote

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

God Bless

August 11, 2008 at 5:44 am#101020

Participant

Hi 94,
You are correct to say that He never sinned along the way amidst the temptations. You are also correct to say that we do sin along the way amidst the temptations. Another difference is that He is from above and we are from below yet both born into this world as an infant. You are also correct to say that in some ways we shall be like Him but not at all during this side of our resurrection, only after we are raised from the dead.
Practicing to follow God's word is vital as you say.

Blessings,
LU

August 11, 2008 at 7:26 am#101030

Participant

Hi Sis Kathi,
If Jesus was really conceived like any other human and born into this world, which part of him you think had been come down from heaven ?

August 11, 2008 at 12:48 pm#101046

Participant

Hi Adam,
I believe that His “inner man” came down from heaven and dwelt within the body prepared for Him inside of Mary. The same part that ascended back into heaven when the body died.

August 11, 2008 at 4:35 pm#101056

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 11 2008,13:03)

Yes LU. In all things good God is the giver. It is up to us to respond.

If God gives faith, then it is up to us to respond in faith.
If God loves us, then we are able to respond in love.
If God provides for us, then surely we should also give of ourselves.

T8…….If you understood the true meaning of GRACE you would see that it is GOD”S INFLUENCING ON THE HEART, and that is What causes to chose God way it does not come from Man himself, “for the carnal mind is enmity to GOD and is (NOT) subject to the laws of GOD neither indeed can be”. Paul said he labored more then all the rest, then went on to say YET NOT I BUT THE GRACE OF GOD LABORED, He understood who was doing the works and Jesus also said He could do nothing of HIMSELF, but The Father did the WORKS. Man kind HATES the absolute SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD. He wants to think He is his own GOD and the author and captain of His own destiny. Jesus said ALL who ever came before him were lairs and thieves , why?, because they always were stealing the Glory that belongs to GOD and attributing it to themselves. Our Salvation from start to finish is a work of the FATHER (ONLY), even our new natures are HIS doing not ours, and If a person has been given theat new nature they will naturally respond to God (because of the new nsture) not there old nature, because the old nature cannot respond positively to God , because the natures are contrary to each other Just as it says they are so this struggle goes on in all who have God's Spirit in them, But what does it say “He that is in you is greater then He thats in the world.”, we are in the world but God in us is greater then us. IMO

peace to you………gene

August 11, 2008 at 5:03 pm#101060

Participant

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Aug. 11 2008,10:06)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 10 2008,19:57)

Which came first – pagan belief or truth?

:;):

Perhaps I should add, that centuries before Christ, pagans had been teaching such things.

Hence, Christ's virginal conception is not a “copy” of a pagan tale; but rather something totally unique, performed by the Almighty GOD of truth.

How do you know?

August 12, 2008 at 1:32 pm#101141

Participant

Hi Sis Mandy,
I humbly request you, please rethink about your beliefs on God's personal involvement with Mary in conception. please see Adam pastor's and my posts negating such beliefs. You can not prove them from the Bible which teaches Monotheism. Jesus never declared himself as another God being, even Paul mentioned him as a man-mediator even after his glorification. “God begets another God” is some thing to do with mythology and Paganism but not with Jewish Monotheism. I have already told here that one can not stand on two boats by saying God is One and at the same time He has begotten another God besides Him. I see many traps here in this forum by believing such things apart from scriptures; one says 'son is eternally begotten' and other says 'no no he has a beginning but before the foundations of the world'. They are secretly professing their preconceived orientations towards Trinitarianism or Arianism. Both these beliefs had caused utter confusion in the history of Chrstianity and they killed many saints like Michael Servetus who was burnt alive.

I again warn you in love not to go into that trap.
Love to you
Adam

August 12, 2008 at 2:14 pm#101144

Participant

Brother Adam,

Thank you for your concern and for your thoughts.

If language means anything, and if natural processes have meaning, what does it mean for Mary to have CONCEIVED through God? And what does it mean for Jesus to be God's SON?

We know what these things mean in human terms and definitions. Why do they have completely different meanings when folks interpret scriptures? Should we change their meanings because we don't like the idea of God fathering his own Son?

Have a great day – I'm off to Cheer Camp with my daughter!
Love,
Mandy

August 12, 2008 at 2:32 pm#101147

Participant

Hi Sis,
Have great day in you Cheer Camp but say good night to me. God certainly Fathered Jesus by giving His Spirit (of sonship) to Jesus but He can not give some thing which He doesn't possess; there lies the difference. You have to understand these things on some scholarly work like Anthony Buzzard or James Dunn but not by feeble interpretations. I have not seen so far anybody proved what you believe about Jesus' mysterious birth. Please see Adam Pastor's posts what else you need to prove those beliefs. If you say Jesus was like you and me where is the question Jesus being different if he had been tempted like us and was weak like us physically ?. Trinity makes Jesus both God and man by believing Jesus mysterious birth I don't think you being woman of non-trinitarian beliefs can agree with those blunders.

Sorry to bother you
Adam

August 12, 2008 at 7:15 pm#101156

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 13 2008,01:32)

I again warn you in love not to go into that trap.
Love to you
Adam

Hi GM,
You have not explained scriptures uses of GOD in relationship to other beings apart from our God. It seems fear of polytheism and deception has prevented you grasping these matters fully as it calling any other being GOD deviiated from monotheism. We are not any sort of theists but believers in God and His son and we need to cast off these false shackles.

August 13, 2008 at 2:06 am#101177

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 13 2008,02:32)

You have to understand these things on some scholarly work like Anthony Buzzard or James Dunn but not by feeble interpretations. I have not seen so far anybody proved what you believe about Jesus' mysterious birth. Please see Adam Pastor's posts what else you need to prove those beliefs. If you say Jesus was like you and me where is the question Jesus being different if he had been tempted like us and was weak like us physically ?.

Hi Adam,

To be honest, I'm not quite sure what you are asking me? Can you maybe restate your question(s)/concern(s) of me?

I know Sir Anthony Buzzard and his wife, Barbara, personally. I have been asked to speak/sing at their national conferences on numerous ocassions.

I'm not so concerned that no one has been able to “prove” my theory right about the birth of Jesus. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. As for Adam Pastor, I'm not sure of which post you are pointing to for me to answer some questions he had concerning my theory? Adam Pastor and I see eye-to-eye on every issue except the unique conception of Christ. In my opinion, not a hill to die on.

Love,
Mandy

August 13, 2008 at 4:28 pm#101246

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 13 2008,07:15)

Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 13 2008,01:32)

I again warn you in love not to go into that trap.
Love to you
Adam

Hi brother Nick,
I don't have problem in understanding God of the Bible as One and only if at total Bible calls him one God. But you people are having big problem in facing this truth. I may be coming hardly on that because I don't want to compromise this truth that there is only One true God. I don't want to make Jesus so called or false God like Satan and other Pagan gods what you are trying to prove here as often discouraging me every time. That doesn't make me waver about my faith in the true God. I don't know what you are trying to prove by quoting 'there are so many so called gods including Satan' ?. I don't need any round about interpretations on God. I simply follow what Jesus my Lord has told ” Father you are only the true God”. If he is truth there can be no ambiguity in my beliefs.

Please understand me and ensure I am not deviated from the truth of the Bible. Thanks for your concerned for me.
Adam

August 13, 2008 at 4:36 pm#101247