The Christ of God

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 06 2008,05:27)

Hi LU, Both these verses can be read differently according to comma placement, and of course there are no commas in the greek.

Hi Nick,
Are you satisfied with just shucking off a statement of that magnitude with that reasoning? Take the commas out and I find the message of Jesus Christ still being our God and Savior in both of those verses.

Of Course, He, I believe is our “Mighty God and Savior”, not our “Almighty God and Savior”

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
I have the New American version in front of me.
Tit2 reads.
“…as we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ”

[gollamudi]

Amen to that brother Nick, I also read my NASB the verse reads the same as above. Jeus is the glory of our God the Father he is going to come again in his Father's glory. Please see Mk 8:38

“For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels”

Jesus is the True image of the one God the Father he is not another begotten God as some say.

Thanks and blessings
Adam

[Not3in1]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 07 2008,01:31)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 06 2008,05:27) Hi LU, Both these verses can be read differently according to comma placement, and of course there are no commas in the greek. Hi Nick, Are you satisfied with just shucking off a statement of that magnitude with that reasoning?  Take the commas out and I find the message of Jesus Christ still being our God and Savior in both of those verses. Of Course, He, I believe is our “Mighty God and Savior”, not our “Almighty God and Savior” LU

Begotten God, in my opinion, is just another way to describe Jesus' unique status as the firstborn of his kind.

We conceive and give birth after our own kind. Well, there is no denying that God and women worked together to form the baby Jesus. That would make Jesus a divine man. A begotten God/man.

If you follow this logically, this is what you come out with. Just thinking out loud here folks – trying to reason this out.

Perhaps this is why Jesus could say things like this, “…no one is good but God…” and still say, “…when you see me, you see the Father….”. Meaning that he is not God himself, and that further he is more than just a mere man.

I used to buck that title – God/man. But now I'm thinking it fits pretty good.

Perhaps this is also why Jesus is able to be our Mediator (one who represents both parties).

OK, I better hit the hay…..long day today and tomorrow promises to be just as busy. Our hot weather has finally come in the Pacific Northwest. We're loving it but because we're not used to it – it makes everyone a little more tired and grumpy by the end of the day (not to mention sticky – yuck).

Goodnight all,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
HoW can earthmen follow a godman?
He was alike to us in all ways except sin.

[Lightenup]

To Nick and all,
As you probably recall, Nick, I posted this info in the pre-existence thread a few days ago. Address this verse in 2 Peter 1:1. Is the NAV consistent in its translation of 2 Peter 1:1 and 2 Peter 1:11? The only thing that should change is the word “God” to “Lord”, if that is not the case, the translators, IMO are expressing a bias since the construction is exactly the same.

Look at these two lines of Greek and notice that they are exactly the same except for the second word in each line and that is consistent in each Greek manuscript.

tou qeou hmwn kai swthrov Ihsou Xristou;
tou kuriou hmwn kai swthrov Ihsou Xristou.

That was from the Nestlé-Aland 26 manuscript.

tou yeou hmwn kai swthrov Ihsou Xristou
tou kuriou hmwn kai swthrov Ihsou Xristou

The above is from the 1894 Textus Receptus manuscript. Notice again that the words are all the same in each line except the second word.

tou yeou hmwn kai swthrov Ihsou Xristou
tou kuriou hmwn kai swthrov Ihsou Xristou

The above two Greek lines are from the 1991 Byzantine manuscript. Also notice they are the same except for the second word.

yeou and qeou are both transliterated as theos, strong's number 2316.

kurio is transliterated as kurios, strong's number 2962.

Hence, In my understanding, they should be translated the same except for the second word. Let's see how they are translated in several Bible versions:

2 Peter 1:1
NET © …our God and Savior, Jesus Christ…

NIV ©…our God and Saviour Jesus Christ…

NASB ©…our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:…

NLT ©…Jesus Christ, our God and Savior…

MSG ©…our God and Savior, Jesus Christ…

BBE ©…our God and Saviour Jesus Christ…

NRSV ©…our God and Savior Jesus Christ…

NKJV ©… our God and Savior Jesus Christ…

KJV ©…God and our Saviour Jesus Christ…

2 Peter 1:11
NET ©…our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ…

NIV ©…our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ…

NASB ©…our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…

NLT ©…our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…

MSG ©…our Master and Savior, Jesus Christ….

BBE ©…our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ…

NRSV ©…our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…

NKJV ©…our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ….

KJV©…our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ…

Now let's be objective about this, ok. Do you see how the KJV was not consistent? The “our” is placed in different places in that translation. Do you see how that is not the case in the NKJV? I believe it is the KJV that is in error here. Also, search your heart here, when you read “our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”, do you think of the words “Lord” and “Savior” to refer both to Jesus. I do and I would bet that you have used the phrase “Lord and Savior” to refer to Jesus in your past posts, so be truthful to yourselves here.

Therefore, in conclusion “our God and Savior Jesus Christ” would also refer to the same one person and that is Jesus Christ.

I imagine that one can weasel their way out of that by claiming theos to mean “our mighty one” and not really “our God” but I don't think that anyone can remain convinced that the two words don't refer to the same being. Maybe it would be a good time to ask the Holy Spirit to show the truth here. I believe that Jesus is our God and Savior, the begotten God and Savior. That is very different than calling Him the always existent God and Savior.

God bless,
Kathi

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 07 2008,18:46)

Hi not3, HoW can earthmen follow a godman? He was alike to us in all ways except sin.

Scripture tells us that Jesus' brother's had flesh and blood and so he “shared” in that. We kinda assume that he was made like us in ever *other* way. Indeed Jesus did come in the “flesh” but that doesn't rule out that he was in essence different than us, imo.

Hebrews 2:14
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death

Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Mandy

[GeneBalthrop]

Mandy……If Jesus was in anyway different then Us, then we could say he really did not live a Human sinless life, Thats one of my objections to Jesus not being exactly like us in (EVERY) it takes away from his accomplishments, because he then was not exactly like us. I believe the only difference was Jesus had the fullness of the Spirit in Him and that was what keep him from being overcome by sin and when we recieve that fullness we will also be without sin any longer. I view Jesus just like any other Human man who if given the fullness of Gods Spirit would not sin also. Just imo.

Love and peace to you and yours Mandy…………gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
His sinless life was before his anointing with the Spirit at the Jordan as well as afterwards. So the Spirit did not cause him to be sinless but the fathering of God.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 08 2008,02:30)

I believe the only difference was Jesus had the fullness of the Spirit in Him

I know you want to believe this, but there is only One begotten of God. You are not it, my brother.

We cannot be exactly like Jesus in that way. I am quite certain that my mother was not a virgin when I was born, considering I am the last of 4 siblings. Also, my Father wasn't God Almighty.

Love,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
The only difference from the first Adam specified in 1Cor15 is the he BECAME a life giving Spirit.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 08 2008,11:56)

Hi not3, The only difference from the first Adam specified in 1Cor15 is the he BECAME a life giving Spirit.

However we are told elsewhere that there are other differences, to name a few:
1. He is the man from earth, Jesus is from heaven.
2. He was made of mud, Jesus was conceived.
3. He sinned, Jesus did not.

IMO, Adam is part of the old creation and Jesus is a part of the new creation. There is a big difference between the two, although even the BU's think differently than me on this. They believe as Gene does.

Mandy

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Then why would God bother to compare them if one was a man and the other a superman?

[Not3in1]

One is of this race, the other is of the new creation.
Two different Adams.
Two different men.
Two different convenants.
Two different…..

They are comparible but not in likeness as some believe, imo.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Is the new creation of the Spirit of God?

[Not3in1]

For us that is how it will be accomplished, yes.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
But not for the firstborn from the dead?

[Not3in1]

The new creation was conceived and born.
We will be changed and then adopted.

Jesus was directly exhaulted to God's right hand.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
So what did Jesus BECOME for us that we might live, and how?

[Not3in1]

Jesus didn't BECOME anything for us to live……he was given…..he was born!

Off to bed – thanks for the chat Nick!
Mandy

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