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Hi Keith,
Quote To take the road of doubting the written scriptures will only lead to not believing that Jesus is the Messiah and eventually not believing YHWH is God, IMO.
Maybe. I've come full circle with the doubt thing. I believe that each follower of Christ is capable of asking the hard questions and seeking out the answers. I did survive my “Trek for truth”. I believe that a little doubt is good for keeping reality and perspective looking their best. I don't buy every word of the bible, I'm sorry, I cannot do it. I have studied and researched what is available to know about the bible and, I have found that it has been tampered with (added to, changed, mistranslated, the list goes on….). I won't deny that these things are true. Why do you? Why does any Christian want to? Would it shake their very foundation in God? Perhaps…..Perhaps that is why we caution folks from searching….from doubting.
I believe it is better to come to a realistic understanding of the bible, and the God it portrays.
Quote Do you remember this conversation with kejonn….?
I do. I still believe that one needs to trust in God's Spirit to lead them. There are so many things out there for the taking….. We must trust that God holds us in his hands.Quote Where is kejonn's faith in Jesus now?
I haven't talked with Kevin in a while, but I'm certain he still holds faith in Jesus. How he defines that faith, I've no idea. But he is a searching soul, much like anyone who loves God. Even Peter denied Jesus 3 times….I'm sure Peter lived out the rest of his life searching for Jesus. He maybe thought that Jesus would come in his lifetime, and when he did not, he continued to search for him until the day he died. Maybe he has found him now, do you think? We just don't know….so we continue to search.I know that you and Nick put a lot of emphasis on the bible and it's scads of scholars, but I do not have as much faith in man as you both do. You say these men are inspired of God, maybe even directly led to pen words by God himself? I deny such nonsense. I call it nonsense because the bible boasts one error after another…. Surely you don't want to give God credit for that?
Hope your family is well, bro.
Love,
MandyQuote (meerkat @ Dec. 12 2008,10:42) Hi Mandy, Would be nice if you stuck around
….. however I know what you mean when you said, tit for tat is wearying ………. and the spoon and leaven ……..The answer to one question leads to many more questions to ask and a lot of people have no idea why you are asking the questions ………….
Thanks, MeerKat!I guess I've developed a lot less tolerance for narrow-minded thinking. The world is so large, it's views so many…..for us to believe that OUR bible and OUR religion is the ONLY WAY, well, I no longer subscribe. That makes my contributions here pretty limited. I certainly do not want to hurt anyone or be a stumbling block.
Love,
MandyHi not3,
His words are spirit and life.
He has the words of eternal life.
The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy
Man cannot live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.Hi not3,
Do you think there may be major unknown deficiencies that must distort the whole or just a few challenges?
ps12
6The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Are these words of the Lord pure?
The first line is the most important line of the passage – this is what Yahweh himself says to do to cure leprosy, not something the priests made up for themselves. And it doesn't work.
Why would god give such precise instructions for something that won't work – and claim that it would?
From Leviticus 1: “And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2: This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest:
3: And the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be healed in the leper;
4: Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
5: And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water:
6: As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water:
7: And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.
8: And he that is to be cleansed shall wash his clothes, and shave off all his hair, and wash himself in water, that he may be clean: and after that he shall come into the camp, and shall tarry abroad out of his tent seven days.
9: But it shall be on the seventh day, that he shall shave all his hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair he shall shave off: and he shall wash his clothes, also he shall wash his flesh in water, and he shall be clean.
10: And on the eighth day he shall take two he lambs without blemish, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish, and three tenth deals of fine flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and one log of oil.
11: And the priest that maketh him clean shall present the man that is to be made clean, and those things, before the LORD, at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:
12: And the priest shall take one he lamb, and offer him for a trespass offering, and the log of oil, and wave them for a wave offering before the LORD:
13: And he shall slay the lamb in the place where he shall kill the sin offering and the burnt offering, in the holy place: for as the sin offering is the priest's, so is the trespass offering: it is most holy:
14: And the priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and the priest shall put it upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot:
15: And the priest shall take some of the log of oil, and pour it into the palm of his own left hand:
16: And the priest shall dip his right finger in the oil that is in his left hand, and shall sprinkle of the oil with his finger seven times before the LORD:
17: And of the rest of the oil that is in his hand shall the priest put upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot, upon the blood of the trespass offering:
18: And the remnant of the oil that is in the priest's hand he shall pour upon the head of him that is to be cleansed: and the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD.
19: And the priest shall offer the sin offering, and make an atonement for him that is to be cleansed from his uncleanness; and afterward he shall kill the burnt offering:
20: And the priest shall offer the burnt offering and the meat offering upon the altar: and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and he shall be clean.”Tim
Moses certainly liked the number seven.
7: And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times
8. and shall tarry abroad out of his tent seven days.
16. and shall sprinkle of the oil with his finger seven times before the LORD:
Tim
Hey all..I appreciate the responses…to those that say the next step is, “Atheism”…thats funny my wife said the same thing…
BUt again..i stress…i have my on personal experiences for believing in GOD…I question the GOD of the bible…
I noticed no one addressed the issues I have raised..namely..
That: The only reason you believe in the bible and worship its GOD..is because of the geographic region you were born…
If you think that statement holds no weight…explain why you feel that way…
Matter of fact lemme see if I can explain this..better yet check this quote out…
http://www.apath.org/im_right_youre_wrong.html
Let's all start and agree with the premise that Divinity is Big. Quite probably beyond our ability to grasp its vastness. Bigger than the Earth, even!
Okay. Now look out your window and describe what you see. Did you just describe every feature of our planet, or just a small part that you have seen and are familiar with?
If you can't describe all of our little planet, how can you expect to describe all of Divinity?
Just as I can look outside and say “The Earth is a muddy swamp like my backyard is after the rain” you might say “The Earth is a dry hot arid place” because you've had a year of drought.
A Religion is basically like looking out your window and describing Divinity as you see it. It is impossible for you to describe it in its entirety as you haven't seen it in its entirety.
As a result each religion is expressing the portion of Divinity that the people who created it could see.
Just because you see one thing doesn't mean that somebody else can't see a different aspect of Divinity and be just as correct as you are. Just like I see mud outside my window and you see a cracked river bed. We're both right. It's just that we're looking at something so big that we each see a different part of it.
Just because you don't see the same thing I do doesn't mean that I'm wrong. We can both be right if we're seeing different things.
Now I don't agree with everything said on that particular site…but I agree with the above statement…
If you don't agree explain
Lemme give you a clear example of why I say..the GOD of the bible is not the GOD of the Universe…follow along:
America is at war right now…what if the president came on TV and said..he has ordered the troops to invade Iraq…and as part of the invasion they are to:
Kill every man, woman, and child…well except the virgins….they are to KEEP THEM FOR THEMSELVES!!!
(can you imagine men holding women down checking for their virginity..and then when finding that they were not virgins..killing them!!!)
How do think America would feel? WE WOULD BE OUTRAGED!!!
We would be disgusted…and we would feel like a great MORAL evil had taken place against humanity…Do you think most Christian faiths would approve of this? Of course not…they would condemn this as ant act not of GOD..and definitely done without GOD's approval…OK lets move on
NOw lets open our bible and begin reading….
Judges 21:10-14
10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin.” 12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.13 Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. 14 So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.
WOW…???
I'm sorry…but as I just illustrated…if these things happened today..we would be OUTRAGED!!!
I'm sorry…but I don't believe GOD is this cruel and mysoginistic…
DK……….You must remember the CARNAL mind is just like an animal, even to day these cruelties Happen all over the world. Just look at Darfor, and other places. It also say wherefore He gave them Carnal commandments. All the CARNAL things are detestable to God. The carnal mind is like a raving wolf looking for blood God hated all those things , but how do you deal with animals in animal ways. But Jesus said You have Heard it said to love you neighbor, but Hate you enemies, but (I) say unto you love your enemies do good unto those who despite fully use you and say all manor of things about you falsely. Jesus shows us the way the Father really thinks, WE are so blessed to have a different Mind lead by a different Spirit brother. We to as you have expressed, must grow to hate those evil detestable things specially seeing we are with Jesus going to help straighten all the mess out. So it good that we learn to (HATE EVIL) and LOVE GOOD in this life.
love and peace to you and yours brother…………………gene
HI DK,
It appears as though you have just started to read the bible with a logical mind.
It is these same outrageous descriptions of what God has commanded that has caused
a number of us to question the bible. At least to question the picture of God that the bible portrays.To answer your original question, of course what you believe comes from what you were taught. And what you were taught is somewhat geographical in nature. At one time it was totally geographical but the blending of peoples from other regions of the earth
that is possible now through modern transportation has partially changed the geographical distinction.If you google “world religions map” you can find maps that show dominate religions in the world. Guess what, they are
destributed basically on geographic regions with some changes now because of Christian missionaries in the tribal countries.Because I started to really study the bible I have lost faith in it's innerancy. But I have not become an atheist. Any time you question the Hebrew bible you will be told that the next step is atheism. Christianity demands that a good Christian blindly believes every thing that is said in the bible. You are forbidden to think for yourself.
Tim
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 13 2008,04:07) DK……….You must remember the CARNAL mind is just like an animal, even to day these cruelties Happen all over the world. Just look at Darfor, and other places. It also say wherefore He gave them Carnal commandments. All the CARNAL things are detestable to God. The carnal mind is like a raving wolf looking for blood God hated all those things , but how do you deal with animals in animal ways. But Jesus said You have Heard it said to love you neighbor, but Hate you enemies, but (I) say unto you love your enemies do good unto those who despite fully use you and say all manor of things about you falsely. Jesus shows us the way the Father really thinks, WE are so blessed to have a different Mind lead by a different Spirit brother. We to as you have expressed, must grow to hate those evil detestable things specially seeing we are with Jesus going to help straighten all the mess out. So it good that we learn to (HATE EVIL) and LOVE GOOD in this life. love and peace to you and yours brother…………………gene
Hi Gene,I am afraid that did not make much sense to me.
Why would God command man to do things that were detestable to Him, the things that He hated? Wouldn't it make more sense to command them to not do those detestable things.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 13 2008,04:58) HI DK, It appears as though you have just started to read the bible with a logical mind.
It is these same outrageous descriptions of what God has commanded that has caused
a number of us to question the bible. At least to question the picture of God that the bible portrays.To answer your original question, of course what you believe comes from what you were taught. And what you were taught is somewhat geographical in nature. At one time it was totally geographical but the blending of peoples from other regions of the earth
that is possible now through modern transportation has partially changed the geographical distinction.If you google “world religions map” you can find maps that show dominate religions in the world. Guess what, they are
destributed basically on geographic regions with some changes now because of Christian missionaries in the tribal countries.Because I started to really study the bible I have lost faith in it's innerancy. But I have not become an atheist. Any time you question the Hebrew bible you will be told that the next step is atheism. Christianity demands that a good Christian blindly believes every thing that is said in the bible. You are forbidden to think for yourself.
Tim
Hi Timothy,I agree.
The Jews I feel took the message that God gave to them – 10 commandments – instructions to carry out those 10 commandments and the types that have been built into their way of life to preserve them – Passover, pentecost, tabanacles, firstfruits because they are God's calendar of events to happen (Passover – Christs death) and then made it into a carnal system of worship saying God has spoken to Moses to us when they were actually adding to what God said.
Jeremiah 8:8 Jer 8:8 How do ye say, We [are] wise, and the law of the LORD [is] with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he [it]; the pen of the scribes [is] in vain.
Jer 8:9 The wise [men] are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom [is] in them?Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 13 2008,04:58) HI DK, It appears as though you have just started to read the bible with a logical mind.
It is these same outrageous descriptions of what God has commanded that has caused
a number of us to question the bible. At least to question the picture of God that the bible portrays.To answer your original question, of course what you believe comes from what you were taught. And what you were taught is somewhat geographical in nature. At one time it was totally geographical but the blending of peoples from other regions of the earth
that is possible now through modern transportation has partially changed the geographical distinction.If you google “world religions map” you can find maps that show dominate religions in the world. Guess what, they are
destributed basically on geographic regions with some changes now because of Christian missionaries in the tribal countries.Because I started to really study the bible I have lost faith in it's innerancy. But I have not become an atheist. Any time you question the Hebrew bible you will be told that the next step is atheism. Christianity demands that a good Christian blindly believes every thing that is said in the bible. You are forbidden to think for yourself.
Tim
Exactly…couldn't agree more…Quote (TimothyVI @ Dec. 13 2008,05:03) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 13 2008,04:07) DK……….You must remember the CARNAL mind is just like an animal, even to day these cruelties Happen all over the world. Just look at Darfor, and other places. It also say wherefore He gave them Carnal commandments. All the CARNAL things are detestable to God. The carnal mind is like a raving wolf looking for blood God hated all those things , but how do you deal with animals in animal ways. But Jesus said You have Heard it said to love you neighbor, but Hate you enemies, but (I) say unto you love your enemies do good unto those who despite fully use you and say all manor of things about you falsely. Jesus shows us the way the Father really thinks, WE are so blessed to have a different Mind lead by a different Spirit brother. We to as you have expressed, must grow to hate those evil detestable things specially seeing we are with Jesus going to help straighten all the mess out. So it good that we learn to (HATE EVIL) and LOVE GOOD in this life. love and peace to you and yours brother…………………gene
Hi Gene,I am afraid that did not make much sense to me.
Why would God command man to do things that were detestable to Him, the things that He hated? Wouldn't it make more sense to command them to not do those detestable things.Tim
my thoughts exactlyQuote Because I started to really study the bible I have lost faith in it's innerancy. But I have not become an atheist. Any time you question the Hebrew bible you will be told that the next step is atheism. Christianity demands that a good Christian blindly believes every thing that is said in the bible. You are forbidden to think for yourself.
Well said, Tim.
I think that those Christians who take the bible for complete and utter truth have a threshold they cannot get past. They have to say to themselves, “I can't go there, I can't go there.” In fact, my sister has said these very words to me during a conversation about the Trinity. Believing the bible is no different. If you begin to question the very foundation upon which you stand…….what will become of you? Right?Foundations can be rebuilt. Sometimes, when a foundation crumbles and it is rebuilt it is stronger than the original structure.
Truth does indeed set people free! Conversely, falsehood keep people in bondage.
Doesn't it sound funny to say that mainstream Christians are in bondage to the bible; a book? So many of it's author's are even unknown. No time frame can be set for any of them – it's all speculation. Languages have changed times over since it's translations, and yet we are to hang on to every “word”? Hmmm
Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 13 2008,05:47) Hi Timothy, I agree.
The Jews I feel took the message that God gave to them – 10 commandments – instructions to carry out those 10 commandments and the types that have been built into their way of life to preserve them – Passover, pentecost, tabanacles, firstfruits because they are God's calendar of events to happen (Passover – Christs death) and then made it into a carnal system of worship saying God has spoken to Moses to us when they were actually adding to what God said.
Jeremiah 8:8 Jer 8:8 How do ye say, We [are] wise, and the law of the LORD [is] with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he [it]; the pen of the scribes [is] in vain.
I like the NIV translation of Jer. 8:8Jer 8:8 “ ‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the Lord,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?
Tim
Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 13 2008,06:08) Well said, Tim.
I think that those Christians who take the bible for complete and utter truth have a threshold they cannot get past. They have to say to themselves, “I can't go there, I can't go there.” In fact, my sister has said these very words to me during a conversation about the Trinity. Believing the bible is no different. If you begin to question the very foundation upon which you stand…….what will become of you? Right?
I believe the same thing.Tim
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