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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 08 2010,13:30) Jesus also says that we are to believe in him to have eternal life. That is the whole point, they are one and you cannot have one without the other! WJ
But in the same sense that Jesus is one with the Father, we can be one with God, Jesus, and each other.John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.Can there be a Jesus without us? Can there be God without me?
To support that you cannot have one without the other using this thinking is not adequate in my opinion. We clearly can be one as well.
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 30 2009,03:24) TO ALL: Gene claims that he worships the Father only. But the whole creation worships the Father and the Son:
“And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
'Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!' “Gene and others here pride themselves that they are dissenters from the Catholic Church. But in reality they dissent from the rest of creation which worships both the Father and the Son. While the rest of creation worships in God's way Gene and others decide for themselves how they will worship God. This is what dissenters do. They go their own way.
thinker
Thinker, why do you call yourself thinker? When you first came here, I thought great, we have a thinker here. We need thinkers. But IMO, you turned out to be something other than what that name suggests. A bit like a 3 pound weakling going by the name superman if you know what I mean.Anyway, worship of God and the Lamb shows something if you have eyes to see it.
- They are two.
- The lamb is obviously not God
- They text is not in anyway saying that both are worshipped as God. Rather one as God, and the other as the lamb.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 09 2010,01:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 08 2010,13:30) Jesus also says that we are to believe in him to have eternal life. That is the whole point, they are one and you cannot have one without the other! WJ
But in the same sense that Jesus is one with the Father, we can be one with God, Jesus, and each other.John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.Can there be a Jesus without us? Can there be God without me?
To support that you cannot have one without the other using this thinking is not adequate in my opinion. We clearly can be one as well.
t8,You say “in the same sense” we are one with the Father?
Hmmmmmm….. Jesus said that He was one with the Father in saving and guarding the sheep:
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.
You might want to re-think your inference that we are one with the Father in the same sense as Jesus. For in its immediate context it is CLEAR that Jesus was saying that the He and the Father are one in saving and guarding the sheep.
Let yourself be guided by context. John 17 is about unity of purpose while John 10 is about the Father and the Son's unity both in purpose and IN POWER.
Again, you might want to re-think your conclusion.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 09 2010,01:54) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 09 2010,01:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 08 2010,13:30) Jesus also says that we are to believe in him to have eternal life. That is the whole point, they are one and you cannot have one without the other! WJ
But in the same sense that Jesus is one with the Father, we can be one with God, Jesus, and each other.John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.Can there be a Jesus without us? Can there be God without me?
To support that you cannot have one without the other using this thinking is not adequate in my opinion. We clearly can be one as well.
t8,You say “in the same sense” we are one with the Father?
Hmmmmmm….. Jesus said that He was one with the Father in saving and guarding the sheep:
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.
You might want to re-think your inference that we are one with the Father in the same sense as Jesus. For in its immediate context it is CLEAR that Jesus was saying that the He and the Father are one in saving and guarding the sheep.
Let yourself be guided by context. John 17 is about unity of purpose while John 10 is about the Father and the Son's unity both in purpose and IN POWER.
Again, you might want to re-think your conclusion.
thinker
Being unified in purpose and power are not the same as being one in essence or position or being.
Any human can have as much power as God deems to give him and all Christians should be one in purpose as God. That is called faith. The Hebrew definition of faith is to work with God to accomplish his purpose in the Earth.t8 said:
Quote They text is not in anyway saying that both are worshipped as God. Rather one as God, and the other as the lamb. t8,
This is feeble man! The One who sits upon the throne and the Lamb are worshiped not for who they are but for the works they have done.
The scene begins with the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures singing a new song about the works of the Lamb. Therefore, the Lamb receives equal worship with the One who sits upon the throne on the basis that He is worthy.
The Lamb performed the works which ONLY God could do. The necessary inference is clear. A course in Logic 101, otherwise known as The Art of Necessary Inference might help t8 a little.
Another failed attempt on the part of an anti-trinitarian to disprove the divinity of our Lord.
thinker
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 08 2010,09:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 08 2010,13:30) Jesus also says that we are to believe in him to have eternal life. That is the whole point, they are one and you cannot have one without the other! WJ
But in the same sense that Jesus is one with the Father, we can be one with God, Jesus, and each other.John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.Can there be a Jesus without us? Can there be God without me?
To support that you cannot have one without the other using this thinking is not adequate in my opinion. We clearly can be one as well.
t8I do not see any scriptures that say….
Let not your heart be troubled: “ye believe in God, believe also in me (t8)“. John 14:1
I do not see any scriptures that say….
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and “purify **unto himself** (t8) a peculiar people“, zealous of good works. Tit 2:14
Do you see any scripture saying that men are to call us their “Only Master and Lord”?
Jesus Oneness with the Father is not the same as our unity in them unless you can say that you are…
….”the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being“, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3
Can you say that you have life in yourself just as the Father has life in himself?
Can you say that you are “The Life”? John 14:6
So your point is moot.
WJ
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 08 2010,07:10) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 08 2010,03:12)
“Before Abraham was I AM.”thinker
Hi Thinker,Nahum 1:14 And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee,
that no more of thy ('i am') name be sown: out of the house of thy gods
will I cut off the graven image and the molten image: I (YHVH) will make thy grave; for thou art vile.Gal.2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live…
Isaiah 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations:
they have no knowledge that set up the wood † of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.Isaiah 44:19-20 …shall I make the residue thereof an abomination?
shall I fall down to † the stock of a tree? He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart
hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?
Jer.2:27 Saying to [the stock † of a tree], Thou art my father; and to a stone(evolution),
Thou hast brought me forth: for they have turned their back unto me, and not their face:
but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us.2Thess.2:4 Who(satan) opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is “called God”=63(YHVH=63),
or that is worshipped; so that he as ('i am')God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he(satan) is God.Romans 1:22-25 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man(Deut.4:16),
and to birds(satanic rapture doctrines), and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts,
to dishonor their own bodies between themselves (prideful WJ and Thinker):
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature(Jesus)
more than the Creator(YHVH), who is blessed for ever. Amen.Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Jer.2:11-13Hath a nation changed their gods (to a vile I am abomination), which are yet no gods?
but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit. Be astonished,
O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the LORD.
For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me(YHVH) the fountain of living waters,
and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water (Isaiah 30:13-14).Deut.32:39-41 See now that I, even I, he, and there is no ('i am'=23)god with me(YHVH: Isaiah 43:11): I kill (2Thess.2:3),
and I make(Jesus) alive(Gal.1:1); I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand (John 10:29).
For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. If I whet my glittering sword (Rev.19:15-16),
and mine hand take hold on judgment (Isaiah 27:4-5); I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
More of his (Ed j's) unrighteous judgments!
Tell us Ed, should we bow down to your (Ed j's) excellence and repent at your feet because you are a self proclaimed prophet who makes judgment on the hearts of believers and uses the scriptures as a hammer to judge them?
Your mishandling of the inspired scriptures is like chaff in the wind!
WJ
Martian said:
Quote Being unified in purpose and power are not the same as being one in essence or position or being.
Martian,Agreed. If you have followed my posts over the months you would know that I do not invoke John 10:30 as a “proof text” for Christ's divine essence. Christ's unity of essence with the Father is taught elsewhere in scripture. John 10:30 CLEARLY infers that Christ's unity with the Father is one of purpose and POWER and is not on the same level or “in the same sense” as our unity with the Father and the Son in John 17. Get real!
You ignored this point!
Martian:
Quote Any human can have as much power as God deems to give him and all Christians should be one in purpose as God.
Christ has ALL power and authority. Therefore, He is in the least God representatively and as such is to be obeyed as God. This means that he is indeed “our ONLY Master and Lord” (Jude 4). But anti-trinitarians say that Jesus Christ is merely “a” lord. To this I say “Anathema!”Christ is one with the Father in saving and guarding the sheep. He is therefore EQUALLY YOUR SAVIOR. No degree in rocket science is needed my friend.
thinker
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 08 2010,09:09) - They text is not in anyway saying that both are worshipped as God. Rather one as God, and the other as the lamb.
And the Lamb recieves the same Glory, Honor, and Power as God!So your point is…?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2010,02:56) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 08 2010,09:09) - They text is not in anyway saying that both are worshipped as God. Rather one as God, and the other as the lamb.
And the Lamb recieves the same Glory, Honor, and Power as God!So your point is…?
Yes WJ,The whole context is a song to the Lamb. Every creature in heaven and earth sing this song to the Lamb. To my knowledge anti-trinitarians do not write or sing songs about the Lamb.
The Arains are truly dissenters.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2010,02:56) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 08 2010,09:09) - They text is not in anyway saying that both are worshipped as God. Rather one as God, and the other as the lamb.
And the Lamb recieves the same Glory, Honor, and Power as God!So your point is…?
WJ…….But your not (JUST) saying, Jesus recieved Glory and Honor as GOD does are you?, you are saying He (IS) GOD, big difference.Jesus said He was (ANOINTED) to Preach the Gospel. But you and Thinker say He is GOD and therefore , He must have (ANOINTED) HIMSELF. Not to mention Scripture says we (CAN) come unto the (FULL) Measure of Jesus Christ, but no where does it say we can come unto the full measure of GOD the FATHER. Your assumption Because Jesus, said “me and the Father are ONE” (meaning in agreement) makes Him a GOD is Pure Trinitarian Garbage. You Trinitarians are treading on thin ice and it is getting thinner all the time. IMO
Gene said:
Quote WJ…….But your not (JUST) saying, Jesus recieved Glory and Honor as GOD does are you?, you are saying He (IS) GOD, big difference.
Gene,There is no difference.
thinker
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 08 2010,11:24) WJ…….But your not (JUST) saying, Jesus recieved Glory and Honor as GOD does are you?, you are saying He (IS) GOD, big difference.
Gene, where does the text say that they worshipped God as God and worshipped the Lamb as the Lamb?That would be Idolatry!
The same Glory, Honor, and power is given to both.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2010,03:58) Quote (Gene @ Jan. 08 2010,11:24) WJ…….But your not (JUST) saying, Jesus recieved Glory and Honor as GOD does are you?, you are saying He (IS) GOD, big difference.
Gene, where does the text say that they worshipped God as God and worshipped the Lamb as the Lamb?That would be Idolatry!
The same Glory, Honor, and power is given to both.
WJ
WJ,To my knowledge anti-trinitarians do not write or sing songs of praise to Jesus. Is this true across the board? The Lamb receives the same glory, power and honor as God in the form of a “new song” (vs. 9).
Gene sets himself up as judge of those who praise Jesus. Once he criticized trintiarains for writing songs about him. It seems to me that Gene is the dissenter for he will not give Jesus any praise at all in the form of song. I have been wondering if anti-trinitarians have their own hymn books. Do they even worship God at all? Or do they just dissent and come to boards like this and complain that God is not worshiped correctly and themselves not worship Him?
I ask this because when I first registered here I read something which said, “We do not go to church” (ergo, we do not worship). I ask also because Gene is against singing songs about Jesus and when peace2all changed to believing in the divinity of Jesus he said that he wanted to find a place to worship. This all makes me think that anti-trinitarians do not worship.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 08 2010,13:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2010,03:58) Quote (Gene @ Jan. 08 2010,11:24) WJ…….But your not (JUST) saying, Jesus recieved Glory and Honor as GOD does are you?, you are saying He (IS) GOD, big difference.
Gene, where does the text say that they worshipped God as God and worshipped the Lamb as the Lamb?That would be Idolatry!
The same Glory, Honor, and power is given to both.
WJ
WJ,To my knowledge anti-trinitarians do not write or sing songs of praise to Jesus. Is this true across the board? The Lamb receives the same glory, power and honor as God in the form of a “new song” (vs. 9).
Gene sets himself up as judge of those who praise Jesus. Once he criticized trintiarains for writing songs about him. It seems to me that Gene is the dissenter for he will not give Jesus any praise at all in the form of song. I have been wondering if anti-trinitarians have their own hymn books. Do they even worship God at all? Or do they just dissent and come to boards like this and complain that God is not worshiped correctly and themselves not worship Him?
I ask this because when I first registered here I read something which said, “We do not go to church” (ergo, we do not worship). I ask also because Gene is against singing songs about Jesus and when peace2all changed to believing in the divinity of Jesus he said that he wanted to find a place to worship. This all makes me think that anti-trinitarians do not worship.
thinker
JackI see what you mean. I have heard t8 say he worships Jesus but not as God!
I don't want to be a judge and say that they don't worship, but I will say it seems like a lot of lip service going on when they talk about Jesus as being Lord.
I am reminded of the words “They honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me”!
If they cannot even confess Jesus is their Only Master and Lord then it makes me wonder.
“So I want you to know how to discern what is truly from God“: No one speaking by the Spirit of God can curse Jesus, and no one is able to say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3
There is more to this verse than what meets the eye!
If this verse simply means calling Jesus Lord, then it doesn't make sense because Jesus said many will call him Lord, Lord in that day and he will tell them I never knew you or to paraphrase, had a relationship with you!
I think the verse has to do with “identity” and knowing who Jesus is…
So I want you to know how to discern what is truly from God: No one speaking by the Spirit of God can curse Jesus, and “no one is able to say, “Jesus is Lord (Jehovah),” except by the Holy Spirit.“ 1 Cor 12:3
Only those speaking by the Holy Spirit can confess that Jesus is YHWH Jehovah God, our “Only Master and Lord”, the one that saved his poeple out of Egypt! Jude 1:4, 5
WJ
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote I have heard t8 say he worships Jesus but not as God!
I guess t8 will have to answer my question himself. In Revelation 5 Jesus receives worship in the form of song.TO t8: Do you sing songs about Jesus? Or do you dissent from this?
thinker
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote If they cannot even confess Jesus is their Only Master and Lord then it makes me wonder. TO GENE: Are you able to say from your heart that Jesus Christ is your “Only Master and Lord?” Are you able to sing about Jesus in this way?
thinker
Thinker , Jesus is my brother who OUR (His and MINE) FATHER placed over our Family, as representing the FATHER, But to say He is the FATHER or A GOD, is to deny His own words, I again repeat them for your and WJ'S benefit, JESUS SAID IN (PRAYER) “FOR (THOU) ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD. and GOD the FATHER said “YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME”. Not to mention hundreds of other scriptures that say the same thing. But you deluded TRINITARIANS simple ignore them as if they were not even written in scriptures. Amazing, at the blindness you exhibit. No wonder it say in 2 Ths 2 that GOD, would have to send to him a (STRONG) delusion (IN ORDER) FOR THEM TO BELIEVE (A LIE) , because a normal person even would not even accept that LIE, THAT LIE IS THAT JESUS IS A GOD. Which you and WJ preach and teach. IMO
Thinker…….What you and WJ need to do is print your own bibles and leave out the thousands of places that show there is (ONLY) ONE (TRUE) GOD. There are already place where your 600 hundred scholar have altered the text and omitted sentences and add others, so you and WJ can continue that process and create your own TRINITARIAN BIBLES. IMO
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