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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,10:11) Mike Well why are you not consistent with the use of the word then, for Jesus was!
God is a Spirit: and they that worship (proskyneō) him must worship (proskyneō) him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24
And they worshipped (proskyneō) him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: Luke 24:52
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped (proskyneō) him. John 9:38
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped (proskyneō) him. Matt 28:9
Can you give me any examples where men did this to anyone else but the Father and Jesus in the NT where it was not discouraged or where they were not eaten up with worms?
Jesus never did reject “Worship” and used the same word to describe the true worship to the Father.
How do you explain this?
Blessings WJ
Hey Wj,I am consistent with the word worship, and I know that while giving praise, honor and glory are a part of worship, they are not in and of themselves necessarily worship. And nobody in Revelation worshipped Jesus at any time.
Thank you for the Scriptures. I just had Lightenup bump these same ones to me yesterday so I can research. They are very good points and I simply do not know how to answer them yet. I assume it is similar to the use of the word “god”. The meaning is derived from the context. When people bowed to show honor to Israel's Kings, was it termed as worship? This I don't know yet. But I'm looking into it. My initial thought is that it was okay to “worship” someone as far as showing respect, as long as you didn't WORSHIP them. Like it is okay for Paul to call Satan “god”, as long as he didn't call him GOD. Or like if you're playing blackjack and you tell the dealer “hit me”, it's understood that you don't mean for him to physically hit you.
But as far as your other following points…
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of “the throne of God and of the Lamb”. Rev 22:1
And there shall be no more curse: “but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it”; and his servants shall serve him: Rev 22:3
FOR THE LAMB WHICH IS IN THE MIDST OF THE THRONE” shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Rev 7:17
And I beheld, and, lo, “in the midst of the throne” and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, “stood a Lamb” as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev 5:6
Do you see the Lamb standing in the throne here? Now read on…
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing”. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, “Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever”. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Rev 5:11-14
Do you see the same worship honour and praise given to the Lamb who is in the throne with the Father?
Point 1: Paul says that everything comes FROM God, THROUGH Jesus, so why wouldn't the life-giving water flow FROM God, THROUGH Jesus.
Point 2: So Jesus' stands close to Jehovah's throne, so what? It also says the four beasts are in the midst of the throne. All “in the midst of” means is “in the general vicinity”.
Point 3: Again, so what if the throne of God AND the throne of Jesus are in New Jerusalem.
Point 4: Before the Lamb even enters the throne area, in 4:9-10, the 24 elders fall down and worship the Father. After the Lamb takes the scroll, they do it again. So what?
Wj, I don't think I have all the answers, I'm learning as I go.
Peace and love
MikeMike,
Well said.
Read carefully:
Rev 4:8-11:
“8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9 And when those beasts give glory and honor and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 the four and twenty elders fall down before Him that sat on the throne, and worship Him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created.”The elders Worship God by casting their Crowns (The symbol of their power and authority) before God's throne – An act of total submission and servitude.
At no time is this act given to Jesus – the Lamb.Ahh…the Protestant heretics against the Arian heretics…I see
Well, this is common among heretics. Luther was against Erasmus and Zwingli. History repeats itself?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:30) Ahh…the Protestant heretics against the Arian heretics…I see Well, this is common among heretics. Luther was against Erasmus and Zwingli. History repeats itself?
CACircular!
The scriptures the CC say are inspired show much division among the Apostles and believers!
I suppose they were heretics too?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2010,22:10) Hey Wj, I am consistent with the word worship, and I know that while giving praise, honor and glory are a part of worship, they are not in and of themselves necessarily worship.
MikeAre you consistent?
Then why don't you worship Jesus like Jesus said to worship the Father in John 4:24?
They are the same word you know?
Blessings WJ
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 20 2010,06:30) Ahh…the Protestant heretics against the Arian heretics…I see Well, this is common among heretics. Luther was against Erasmus and Zwingli. History repeats itself?
Erasmus and Zwingli were Arains? Luther denied the “only Master and Lord Jesus Christ?”CA compares apples to oranges.
“Whosoever is not against us is for us” (Jesus). The Arains are against Christ. Protestants are not.
CA needs to stop grinding his ax and prioritize.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,06:41) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:30) Ahh…the Protestant heretics against the Arian heretics…I see Well, this is common among heretics. Luther was against Erasmus and Zwingli. History repeats itself?
CACircular!
The scriptures the CC say are inspired show much division among the Apostles and believers!
I suppose they were heretics too?
WJ
Go read my response to this asinine claim of yours in the Scriptures section.Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 20 2010,07:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,06:41) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:30) Ahh…the Protestant heretics against the Arian heretics…I see Well, this is common among heretics. Luther was against Erasmus and Zwingli. History repeats itself?
CACircular!
The scriptures the CC say are inspired show much division among the Apostles and believers!
I suppose they were heretics too?
WJ
Go read my response to this asinine claim of yours in the Scriptures section.
CA,See my post immediately above yours. Hopefully you will chill out a little. WJ and I vehemently disagree in the area of eschatology. We have learned to put that aside and cultivate our alliance on the more cardinal doctrines of the faith.
You are really getting on my nerves sir!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 20 2010,07:11) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 20 2010,07:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,06:41) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:30) Ahh…the Protestant heretics against the Arian heretics…I see Well, this is common among heretics. Luther was against Erasmus and Zwingli. History repeats itself?
CACircular!
The scriptures the CC say are inspired show much division among the Apostles and believers!
I suppose they were heretics too?
WJ
Go read my response to this asinine claim of yours in the Scriptures section.
CA,See my post immediately above yours. Hopefully you will chill out a little. WJ and I vehemently disagree in the area of eschatology. We have learned to put that aside and cultivate our alliance on the more cardinal doctrines of the faith.
You are really getting on my nerves sir!
thinker
Maybe you aren't getting it, sir.I am waiting for you BOTH to engage me on cardinal doctrines.
(funny you should use the term “cardinal doctrine”)
I don't want to get on your nerves. However someone needs to stand up to you and get you to see that your espoused heresy is NOT OK with God.
CA
YOU MUST THINK YOU ARE THE KNIGHT OF GOD,BE CAREFULL NOT TO INVOLVED YOURSELF IN THINGS WHO DO NOT BELONG TO YOU,BUT ONLY TO GOD.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,06:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2010,22:10) Hey Wj, I am consistent with the word worship, and I know that while giving praise, honor and glory are a part of worship, they are not in and of themselves necessarily worship.
MikeAre you consistent?
Then why don't you worship Jesus like Jesus said to worship the Father in John 4:24?
They are the same word you know?
Blessings WJ
Wj, is this a trick question?Because he is not God Almighty, that's why.
What are the same word?
Peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 19 2010,17:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,06:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2010,22:10) Hey Wj, I am consistent with the word worship, and I know that while giving praise, honor and glory are a part of worship, they are not in and of themselves necessarily worship.
MikeAre you consistent?
Then why don't you worship Jesus like Jesus said to worship the Father in John 4:24?
They are the same word you know?
Blessings WJ
Wj, is this a trick question?Because he is not God Almighty, that's why.
What are the same word?
Peace and love,
mike
MikeNo trick question!
God is a Spirit: and they that **worship (proskyneō)** him must **worship (proskyneō)** him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24
And they **worshipped (proskyneō)** him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: Luke 24:52
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he **worshipped (proskyneō)** him. John 9:38
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and **worshipped (proskyneō)** him. Matt 28:9
I highlighted the Greek word for “Worship” which is the same word that Jesus used to describe “True Worship” to the Father!
In every case Jesus was worshipped by men it was the same word and Jesus did not ever discourage or correct them.
There are no NT examples of the word being used toward men or Angels where it was not discouraged by the recipient!
WJ
Mike
No trick question!
God is a Spirit: and they that **worship (proskyneō)** him must **worship (proskyneō)** him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24
And they **worshipped (proskyneō)** him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: Luke 24:52
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he **worshipped (proskyneō)** him. John 9:38
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and **worshipped (proskyneō)** him. Matt 28:9
I highlighted the Greek word for “Worship” which is the same word that Jesus used to describe “True Worship” to the Father!
In every case Jesus was worshipped by men it was the same word and Jesus did not ever discourage or correct them.
There are no NT examples of the word being used toward men or Angels where it was not either discouraged by the recipient!
[/QUOTE]
Wj, I know it's the same word. You're repeatiing yourself. I don't have an answer yet. You stumped me for now-are you happy?
Maybe some of my arian brethren can come to my aid. They have probably heard this argument before. I haven't until two days ago. In the mean time, I will read, read, read.
Peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 19 2010,18:24) Mike No trick question!
God is a Spirit: and they that **worship (proskyneō)** him must **worship (proskyneō)** him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24
And they **worshipped (proskyneō)** him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: Luke 24:52
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he **worshipped (proskyneō)** him. John 9:38
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and **worshipped (proskyneō)** him. Matt 28:9
I highlighted the Greek word for “Worship” which is the same word that Jesus used to describe “True Worship” to the Father!
In every case Jesus was worshipped by men it was the same word and Jesus did not ever discourage or correct them.
There are no NT examples of the word being used toward men or Angels where it was not either discouraged by the recipient!
Quote Wj, I know it's the same word. You're repeatiing yourself. I don't have an answer yet. You stumped me for now-are you happy?
Maybe some of my arian brethren can come to my aid. They have probably heard this argument before. I haven't until two days ago. In the mean time, I will read, read, read.
Peace and love,
mike
MikeWhy do you see this dialogue as stomping you?
That is not my purpose!
My purpose is to speak and defend the truth.
I am trying very hard with the Lords help and love to not Patronize, accuse and condemn as the manner of some are on this sight!
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2010,09:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,06:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2010,22:10) Hey Wj, I am consistent with the word worship, and I know that while giving praise, honor and glory are a part of worship, they are not in and of themselves necessarily worship.
MikeAre you consistent?
Then why don't you worship Jesus like Jesus said to worship the Father in John 4:24?
They are the same word you know?
Blessings WJ
Wj, is this a trick question?Because he is not God Almighty, that's why.
What are the same word?
Peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike:You will find the answer in the definition of the word “worship”.
We do not worship Jesus as God. There is “only one God”.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,09:27) t8 Lets be honest here t8.
You say you also worship the Son!
Do you have two definitions for the word “Worship”? Can you see those two definitions in Revelations where the Father and Jesus are being worshipped and praised simultaneously?
Blessings WJ
WJ.It is simple, just like believing that there is one God the Father.
Worship and honour are the same word.
I honour/worship God as God and Jesus as the son of God and the lamb of God.
Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”Revelation 7:9-11
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.” 11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”Quote (t8 @ Feb. 19 2010,20:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,09:27) t8 Lets be honest here t8.
You say you also worship the Son!
Do you have two definitions for the word “Worship”? Can you see those two definitions in Revelations where the Father and Jesus are being worshipped and praised simultaneously?
Blessings WJ
WJ.It is simple, just like believing that there is one God the Father.
Worship and honour are the same word.
I honour/worship God as God and Jesus as the son of God and the lamb of God.
Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”Revelation 7:9-11
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.” 11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
t8Yes it is simple, there is no difference in the use of the word “Worship” and “Honour” in the scriptures for the Father and Jesus!
We are to honour Jesus “Even as” we honour the Father.
The same is true in Worship!
Worship to God implies a total surrender of all that we are to him without reservation!
You say you worship Jesus!
Do you worship Jesus with all of your heart and soul and mind and strength?
If so and he is not your God then you violate the first commandment!
No you have not shown how the word “Worship” to the Father and Jesus means something different!
And you have not given any examples of the word “worship” given to any other but the Father and Jesus!
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,10:41) Mike Why do you see this dialogue as stomping you?
That is not my purpose!
My purpose is to speak and defend the truth.
I am trying very hard with the Lords help and love to not Patronize, accuse and condemn as the manner of some are on this sight!
Blessings WJ
Wj, I said stumping not stomping. As in I don't have an answer for you yet.But Marty is right. It actually is in the definition as shown here:
Quote wor·ship /ˈwɜrʃɪp/ Show Spelled [wur-ship] Show IPA noun, verb,-shiped, -ship·ing or (especially British) -shipped, -ship·ping.
–noun
1.reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2.formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3.adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4.the object of adoring reverence or regard.
5.(initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. byYour, His, or Her).
–verb (used with object)
6.to render religious reverence and homage to.
7.to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).
–verb (used without object)
8.to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.
9.to attend services of divine worship.
10.to feel an adoring reverence or regard.Do you remember what I said I suspected the answer was yesterday?
Quote My initial thought is that it was okay to “worship” someone as far as showing respect, as long as you didn't WORSHIP them. Like it is okay for Paul to call Satan “god”, as long as he didn't call him GOD. Or like if you're playing blackjack and you tell the dealer “hit me”, it's understood that you don't mean for him to physically hit you. Looks like definition 1. applies to God, while definition 2. applies to the worship Jesus recieved. And as a verb, 8. applies to God, while 10. applies to Jesus.
Look at it this way Wj, do you think the people who “worshipped” Jesus thought he was God Almighty?
And if so, please show me Scripturally why you come to that conclusion.
Peace and love,
miket8 said to WorshippingJesus:
Quote Worship and honour are the same word. WorshippingJesus replied
Quote Yes it is simple, there is no difference in the use of the word “Worship” and “Honour” in the scriptures for the Father and Jesus! We are to honour Jesus “Even as” we honour the Father.
WJ,I would like to give you the knock out punch on this one. But t8 beat himself when he said that worship and honor are the same word. Oh what the heck, I'll give you the knock out punch anyway.
thinker
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