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FROM THE SCRIPTURE AND BIBLICAL DOCTRINE FORUM:
JustAskin said:
Quote If you worship Jesus because you think you are worshipping God THEN you are making Jesus into an IDOL.
JA,You dissent from the rest of the creation. Revelation 5:13 says that every creature in heaven and in earth and under the earth worships the Lamb with the Father:
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”We are not interested in your personal views on the subject. Just give us the scriptures!
thinker
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 09 2010,07:28) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 09 2010,05:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 09 2010,05:19) Hi TT,
YHWH was in YAHSHUA.
Nick,You're not even on the same wave length with ED J and myself. He says that the name “kurios” ALWAYS means simply “an owner.”
Yet Matthew substitutes the name YHVH with the name “Kurios.”This fact destroys ED J's axiom.
thinker
Hi TT,[Κύριος] kü-rē-ŏs IS NOT A NAME and DOES ALWAYS MEAN “OWNER”! You obviously didn't get my point.
Lord “CAN” be used to illustrate “either” [יהוה] YÄ-hä-vā or [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă!
This is done in many places in the Bible, so this is NOT what is in question.What is in question is: Your making use of the word [Κύριος] kü-rē-ŏs as a 'strict determination' of “who” is being referenced?
The word [Κύριος] kü-rē-ŏs “BY ITSELF” cannot be used to determine”Who” is being referenced!
This is what you do! AND IN YOUR DOING SO: “IT IS NOT CONCLUSIVE” AS YOU ASSERT !
Mathew “is” using the word [Κύριος] kü-rē-ŏs to reference [יהוה] YÄ-hä-vā; This FACT is obvious!
But Mathews use of the word does NOT prove your assertions in other Bible passages as you assert it does!
This is YOUR FAULTY LOGIC at work! And your faulty logic PROVES NOTHING!
ED J,You contradict the scriptures. The word “kurios” does NOT always mean “owner.” I have proved that Matthew 3:3 substitutes the name “YHWH” with the word “Kurios.”
Thus “Kurios” is sometimes a reference to YHWH. In fact, the Septuagint uses “kurios” in Isaiah 40:3
φωνη βοωντος εν τη ερημω ετοιμασατε την οδον κυριου ευθειας ποιειτε τας τριβους του θεου ημων
http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/23_040.htm
There it is! The Greek translation of the old testament uses “kurios” for “YHWH.”
You need to trash your sources. Your theory that “kurios” always means “owner” is a desperate attempt to escape the fact that Jesus Christ is your Sovereign Lord!
thinker
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 18 2010,03:24) TT, From under which rock have you crawled?
That's it! That's all you got?thinker
TT,
You cannot read even. Years of twisting the truth and force fitting trinitarianism into Scriptural Truth have caused your mind to resemble overcooked noodles in a bowl.Why are you posting half verses to me thinking that you ahve just discovered some new trinitarian twisted bible verse.
Have these verses not been discussed already – is this new – how long have you been posting – Have you just discovered these?
It is as Terra says, you have no where to go so you just keep going round in circles.
Trinitarians never get any closer to Scriptural Truth because to move forward means to break out of Trinitarian Creed and Doctrine.
That is also why it is such a comfortable position for you to adopt against newcommer because you been woubd the block so many times you have worn holes in your own path.
But, so that you don't claim that I am 'running away' – Geezer, I buried ya wiv dat one, dinni bruv?”, here is my response:
“Get a life – post something meaningful and new”
TT,
How is offering “Praise, Glory, honor, power” to God and the Lamb classed as Worship?
From where did you come?
To where are you going?Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 17 2010,11:41) TT, How is offering “Praise, Glory, honor, power” to God and the Lamb classed as Worship?
From where did you come?
To where are you going?
JAShow us scripturally how it is not!
Do you see any difference in the praise, honour and Glory given to Jesus than the Father?
Please show us how!
WJ
FROM THE “MOST HIGH GOD” THREAD:
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote It doesn't say we worship you God and we praise you Son of God! They are praising and worshipping both the Father and the Son simultaneously!
Amen brother! It says that “every creature in heaven and in earth and under the earth” give glory and honor to the Father and the Lamb. Oh, wait a minute…maybe the Bible is wrong. It should say, “Every creature but JA….”
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,03:24) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 09 2010,07:28) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 09 2010,05:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 09 2010,05:19) Hi TT,
YHWH was in YAHSHUA.
Nick,You're not even on the same wave length with ED J and myself. He says that the name “kurios” ALWAYS means simply “an owner.”
Yet Matthew substitutes the name YHVH with the name “Kurios.”This fact destroys ED J's axiom.
thinker
Hi TT,[Κύριος] kü-rē-ŏs IS NOT A NAME and DOES ALWAYS MEAN “OWNER”! You obviously didn't get my point.
Lord “CAN” be used to illustrate “either” [יהוה] YÄ-hä-vā or [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă!
This is done in many places in the Bible, so this is NOT what is in question.What is in question is: Your making use of the word [Κύριος] kü-rē-ŏs as a 'strict determination' of “who” is being referenced?
The word [Κύριος] kü-rē-ŏs “BY ITSELF” cannot be used to determine”Who” is being referenced!
This is what you do! AND IN YOUR DOING SO: “IT IS NOT CONCLUSIVE” AS YOU ASSERT !
Mathew “is” using the word [Κύριος] kü-rē-ŏs to reference [יהוה] YÄ-hä-vā; This FACT is obvious!
But Mathews use of the word does NOT prove your assertions in other Bible passages as you assert it does!
This is YOUR FAULTY LOGIC at work! And your faulty logic PROVES NOTHING!
ED J,You contradict the scriptures. The word “kurios” does NOT always mean “owner.” I have proved that Matthew 3:3 substitutes the name “YHWH” with the word “Kurios.”
Thus “Kurios” is sometimes a reference to YHWH. In fact, the Septuagint uses “kurios” in Isaiah 40:3
φωνη βοωντος εν τη ερημω ετοιμασατε την οδον κυριου ευθειας ποιειτε τας τριβους του θεου ημων
http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/23_040.htm
There it is! The Greek translation of the old testament uses “kurios” for “YHWH.”
You need to trash your sources. Your theory that “kurios” always means “owner” is a desperate attempt to escape the fact that Jesus Christ is your Sovereign Lord!
thinker
Hi TT,Your 'twisted' logic is exposed !
Why are you trying to READ into my illustrations of “Truth”, does “Truth” trouble you?[Κύριος] kü-rē-ŏs ALWAYS means owner and you know it! Your LOGIC can be PROVEN to be 'faulty', and here's how…
If you reference the owner of a Building, you don't have to use their Name.So [Κύριος] can be used to reference “Either” [יהוה] YÄ-hä-vā or [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă!
YOUR FLAWED LOGIC CANNOT BE USED TO ESTABLISH “BIBLE TRUTH“=117
You CANNOT USE [Κύριος] to definitively PROVE who ANY VERSE is referring to(WITHOUT PRIOR KNOWLEDGE).
In Matt.3:3 we know it REFERS TO [יהוה] ONLY BECAUSE OF Isaiah 40:3
where [יהוה] has been translated into LORD in English an [Κύριος] in Greek.“YHVH is GOD”=117
You illustrate how little you know; GOD's NAME [יהוה] transliterates into English as YHVH!
Transliterates means Phonics(Sounds) HEBREW HAS NO “W” SOUND !
PSALM 117 “is” [The Bible's Center], the “[smallest chapter]” of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
יהוה האלהים=117(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2010,05:43) Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 17 2010,11:41) TT, How is offering “Praise, Glory, honor, power” to God and the Lamb classed as Worship?
From where did you come?
To where are you going?
JAShow us scripturally how it is not!
Do you see any difference in the praise, honour and Glory given to Jesus than the Father?
Please show us how!
WJ
Wj and tt,King Solomon recieved praise and honor from many kings and rulers. Jesus even said, “Not even Solomon in all his GLORY was dressed as beautifully as the lilies of the valley” (paraphrase) But he did not receive worship.
Wj recieved praise, honor and maybe even a little glory from responders to his apology post. But not worship.
You quote Rev. 5:13–read a little farther in the book. 19:10 says, “At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!”
He didn't say worship God and/or Jesus. He said worship God.
Peace and love
MikeQuote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,05:48) Amen brother! It says that “every creature in heaven and in earth and under the earth” give glory and honor to the Father and the Lamb. Oh, wait a minute…maybe the Bible is wrong. It should say, “Every creature but JA….”
Actually it says to God and the Lamb. God is one and the Lamb is another obviously. Nice of you to notice that God is the Father in this verse. Pity you are not consistent though.“For us there is one God the Father.”
For you, there appears to be be one God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Mike, thanks for your input.
WJ,
See Mike's answer as my answer: “Worship God”.
Also, Worship is ONLY given to “Him that sits on the Throne in unapproachable light”
Now, you say that this is Jesus – don't you!!!!!So where is God?
And more – Where is that other Trinity member?
and Who is the Lamb then?
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 19 2010,08:16) Mike, thanks for your input. WJ,
See Mike's answer as my answer: “Worship God”.
Also, Worship is ONLY given to “Him that sits on the Throne in unapproachable light”
Now, you say that this is Jesus – don't you!!!!!So where is God?
And more – Where is that other Trinity member?
and Who is the Lamb then?
Hey Ja,Great question: where is the third party? This site has many people debating whether or not Jesus is God, but not too much mention of how God's Holy Spirit became a third of God.
Peace and love,
MikeQuote (t8 @ Feb. 18 2010,02:41) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 18 2010,05:48) Amen brother! It says that “every creature in heaven and in earth and under the earth” give glory and honor to the Father and the Lamb. Oh, wait a minute…maybe the Bible is wrong. It should say, “Every creature but JA….”
Actually it says to God and the Lamb. God is one and the Lamb is another obviously. Nice of you to notice that God is the Father in this verse. Pity you are not consistent though.“For us there is one God the Father.”
For you, there appears to be be one God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
t8Lets be honest here t8.
You say you also worship the Son!
Do you have two definitions for the word “Worship”? Can you see those two definitions in Revelations where the Father and Jesus are being worshipped and praised simultaneously?
Blessings WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 18 2010,16:16) Mike, thanks for your input. WJ,
See Mike's answer as my answer: “Worship God”.
Also, Worship is ONLY given to “Him that sits on the Throne in unapproachable light”
Now, you say that this is Jesus – don't you!!!!!So where is God?
And more – Where is that other Trinity member?
and Who is the Lamb then?
JAAnd he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of “the throne of God and of the Lamb“. Rev 22:1
And there shall be no more curse: “but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it“; and his servants shall serve him: Rev 22:3
FOR THE LAMB WHICH IS IN THE MIDST OF THE THRONE” shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Rev 7:17
And I beheld, and, lo, “in the midst of the throne” and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, “stood a Lamb” as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev 5:6
Do you see the Lamb standing in the throne here? Now read on…
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing“. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, “Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever“. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Rev 5:11-14
Do you see the same worship honour and praise given to the Lamb who is in the throne with the Father?
Can you tell me where there is a difference?
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2010,15:10) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2010,05:43) Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 17 2010,11:41) TT, How is offering “Praise, Glory, honor, power” to God and the Lamb classed as Worship?
From where did you come?
To where are you going?
JAShow us scripturally how it is not!
Do you see any difference in the praise, honour and Glory given to Jesus than the Father?
Please show us how!
WJ
Wj and tt,King Solomon recieved praise and honor from many kings and rulers. Jesus even said, “Not even Solomon in all his GLORY was dressed as beautifully as the lilies of the valley” (paraphrase) But he did not receive worship.
Wj recieved praise, honor and maybe even a little glory from responders to his apology post. But not worship.
You quote Rev. 5:13–read a little farther in the book. 19:10 says, “At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!”
He didn't say worship God and/or Jesus. He said worship God.
Peace and love
MikeQuote t8 Lets be honest here t8.
You say you also worship the Son!
Do you have two definitions for the word “Worship”? Can you see those two definitions in Revelations where the Father and Jesus are being worshipped and praised simultaneously?
Blessings WJ
Wj, How many times will you ask the same question? Praise, honor and glory do not mean worship. Didn't I show you that Scripturally, like you asked?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2010,17:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2010,15:10) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2010,05:43) Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 17 2010,11:41) TT, How is offering “Praise, Glory, honor, power” to God and the Lamb classed as Worship?
From where did you come?
To where are you going?
JAShow us scripturally how it is not!
Do you see any difference in the praise, honour and Glory given to Jesus than the Father?
Please show us how!
WJ
Wj and tt,King Solomon recieved praise and honor from many kings and rulers. Jesus even said, “Not even Solomon in all his GLORY was dressed as beautifully as the lilies of the valley” (paraphrase) But he did not receive worship.
Wj recieved praise, honor and maybe even a little glory from responders to his apology post. But not worship.
You quote Rev. 5:13–read a little farther in the book. 19:10 says, “At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!”
He didn't say worship God and/or Jesus. He said worship God.
Peace and love
MikeQuote t8 Lets be honest here t8.
You say you also worship the Son!
Do you have two definitions for the word “Worship”? Can you see those two definitions in Revelations where the Father and Jesus are being worshipped and praised simultaneously?
Blessings WJ
Wj, How many times will you ask the same question? Praise, honor and glory do not mean worship. Didn't I show you that Scripturally, like you asked?
MikeWell why are you not consistent with the use of the word then, for Jesus was?
God is a Spirit: and they that worship (proskyneō) him must worship (proskyneō) him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24
And they worshipped (proskyneō) him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: Luke 24:52
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped (proskyneō) him. John 9:38
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped (proskyneō) him. Matt 28:9
Can you give me any examples where men did this to anyone else but the Father and Jesus in the NT where it was not discouraged or where they were not eaten up with worms?
Jesus never did reject “Worship” and used the same word to describe the true worship to the Father.
How do you explain this?
Blessings WJ
wj
Posted: Feb. 19 2010,09:45
——————————————————————————–
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 18 2010,16:16)
Mike, thanks for your input.WJ,
See Mike's answer as my answer: “Worship God”.
Also, Worship is ONLY given to “Him that sits on the Throne in unapproachable light”
Now, you say that this is Jesus – don't you!!!!!So where is God?
And more – Where is that other Trinity member?
and Who is the Lamb then?
JA
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of “the throne of God and of the Lamb”. Rev 22:1
And there shall be no more curse: “but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it”; and his servants shall serve him: Rev 22:3
FOR THE LAMB WHICH IS IN THE MIDST OF THE THRONE” shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Rev 7:17
And I beheld, and, lo, “in the midst of the throne” and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, “stood a Lamb” as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev 5:6
Do you see the Lamb standing in the throne here? Now read on…
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing”. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, “Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever”. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Rev 5:11-14
Do you see the same worship honour and praise given to the Lamb who is in the throne with the Father?
Can you tell me where there is a difference?
Blessings WJ
————–
Mathew 28:9YOU SEE ALL THINGS TROUGH THE EYES OF FLESH NOT SPIRIT ,THIS WOULD GIVE A TOTAL DIFFERENT VIEW OF THINGS.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 18 2010,18:23)
YOU SEE ALL THINGS TROUGH THE EYES OF FLESH NOT SPIRIT ,THIS WOULD GIVE A TOTAL DIFFERENT VIEW OF THINGS.
Is that all you have to add is a lame accusation?WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 19 2010,09:45) Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 18 2010,16:16) Mike, thanks for your input. WJ,
See Mike's answer as my answer: “Worship God”.
Also, Worship is ONLY given to “Him that sits on the Throne in unapproachable light”
Now, you say that this is Jesus – don't you!!!!!So where is God?
And more – Where is that other Trinity member?
and Who is the Lamb then?
JAAnd he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of “the throne of God and of the Lamb“. Rev 22:1
And there shall be no more curse: “but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it“; and his servants shall serve him: Rev 22:3
FOR THE LAMB WHICH IS IN THE MIDST OF THE THRONE” shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Rev 7:17
And I beheld, and, lo, “in the midst of the throne” and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, “stood a Lamb” as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev 5:6
Do you see the Lamb standing in the throne here? Now read on…
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing“. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, “Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever“. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Rev 5:11-14
Do you see the same worship honour and praise given to the Lamb who is in the throne with the Father?
Can you tell me where there is a difference?
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,What does this water represent, WJ; “The Word” perhaps?
Wait a minute, that slot is already (according to WJ) taken; right?
That presents you with quite a 'conundrum', doesn't it now; WJ?
“Bible Truth”=117 will inevitably come forth! (Isaiah 30:25-27)God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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