- This topic is empty.
- Posts
TT,
Why are you appealling to me to answer what you cannot understand?Moreover, this is a dispute between you and T8.
I'm not sure what this 'equality/non-equality' is all about but Jesus' reward for the accomplishment of his task is well earned and God rightly awards it to him just as you say.
I see in the father/son scenario someone making allusions of the father 'grudgingly' giving the son his reward ('The baseball bat became Rightfully mine').
This gives the impression of one who would use the term “'Take' my reward” rather than “'Receive' my reward”.
The kingdom and 'all authority' over that kingdom is not permanent. Jesus hands it 'all' back to God after he has accomplished the assignment.TT, why do I get the feeling that you have just revealed the source of your anger and need for human praise?
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 06 2010,09:08) TT, why do I get the feeling that you have just revealed the source of your anger and need for human praise?
JAJack is snowed in and his wife just had surgury. He may not be able to answer you right now for not having access to the internet and having to take care of his wife.
But, I can ask the question “Why do you continue to critisize him and accuse him?”
Blessings WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 07 2010,01:03) TT,
Why are you appealling to me to answer what you cannot understand?Moreover, this is a dispute between you and T8.
I'm not sure what this 'equality/non-equality' is all about but Jesus' reward for the accomplishment of his task is well earned and God rightly awards it to him just as you say.
I see in the father/son scenario someone making allusions of the father 'grudgingly' giving the son his reward ('The baseball bat became Rightfully mine').
This gives the impression of one who would use the term “'Take' my reward” rather than “'Receive' my reward”.
The kingdom and 'all authority' over that kingdom is not permanent. Jesus hands it 'all' back to God after he has accomplished the assignment.
The “baseball bat became RIGHTFULLY mine” statement was simply meant to illustrate that the Father gave to the Son that which was His own. So there was no inequality.The whole point of t8 and of the Arains is that the Father's giving the kingdom to Jesus implies inequality. But the Father was giving to Jesus that which He WON and there was no implied inequality in that.
The Father did not give the kingdom to Christ in a grudging manner. In fact, Paul used the word “charis” which means “grace” or “gracious.” Paul said, “Therefore, God has also highly exalted Him and has 'given' (charis) Him a name that is ABOVE every name.”
The Father gave the kingdom to His Son in a gracious manner as my father gladly gave me the baseball bat. But for each it was still the reward of fulfilling an agreement. This means that it is Christ's own kingdom and He rules over it with ABSOLUTE sovereignty.
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Matthew 11:27
There it is! The Son has ABSOLUTE sovereignty now. He may reveal the Father to whomsoever He wills.
The Father GRACIOUSLY gave the kingdom and ALL authority to the Son. Yet you GRUDGINGLY admit to Christ's Lordship. Prove your sincerity by saying “Jesus IS Lord!”
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 07 2010,03:00) Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 06 2010,09:08) TT, why do I get the feeling that you have just revealed the source of your anger and need for human praise?
JAJack is snowed in and his wife just had surgury. He may not be able to answer you right now for not having access to the internet and having to take care of his wife.
But, I can ask the question “Why do you continue to critisize him and accuse him?”
Blessings WJ
Hey Keith,So far the storm has not affected my use of the computer. But the township next to us is blacked out. I am running off quick posts while my wife sleeps.
How much snow are you geting? So far 22 inches have fallen in my area with more to come.
JA insults because he has no argument. The hundreds of people who visit this site daily can see that he has nothing. If I was an anti-trinitarian I would be embarassed by JA.
Jack
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 07 2010,01:08) TT, why do I get the feeling that you have just revealed the source of your anger and need for human praise?
Anger? You say that I am a dog led by a leash and you accuse me of anger?You say I am looking for human praise. Did you note that I have two tiles? Why would I post here if I was looking for human praise? If I was looking for human praise I would go to a trinitarian discussion board. Oh, wait, I have been kicked off three trinitarian boards because I am a Preterist.
I don't know what in hades you are talking about!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 06 2010,11:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 07 2010,03:00) Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 06 2010,09:08) TT, why do I get the feeling that you have just revealed the source of your anger and need for human praise?
JAJack is snowed in and his wife just had surgury. He may not be able to answer you right now for not having access to the internet and having to take care of his wife.
But, I can ask the question “Why do you continue to critisize him and accuse him?”
Blessings WJ
Hey Keith,So far the storm has not affected my use of the computer. But the township next to us is blacked out. I am running off quick posts while my wife sleeps.
How much snow are you geting? So far 22 inches have fallen in my area with more to come.
JA insults because he has no argument. The hundreds of people who visit this site daily can see that he has nothing. If I was an anti-trinitarian I would be embarassed by JA.
Jack
JackWe arn't getting much snow mostly rain yesterday.
We Got about 3 inchs of snow the day before here in the central part of NC!
Blessings Keith
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 07 2010,03:42) Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 07 2010,01:03) bat became Rightfully mine'). This gives the impression of one who would use the term “'Take' my reward” rather than “'Receive' my reward”.
The kingdom and 'all authority' over that kingdom is not permanent. Jesus hands it 'all' back to God after he has accomplished the assignmentTT,
Why are you appealling to me to answer what you cannot understand?Moreover, this is a dispute between you and T8.
I'm not sure what this 'equality/non-equality' is all about but Jesus' reward for the accomplishment of his task is well earned and God rightly awards it to him just as you say.
I see in the father/son scenario someone making allusions of the father 'grudgingly' giving the son his reward ('The baseball .
The “baseball bat became RIGHTFULLY mine” statement was simply meant to illustrate that the Father gave to the Son that which was His own. So there was no inequality.The whole point of t8 and of the Arains is that the Father's giving the kingdom to Jesus implies inequality. But the Father was giving to Jesus that which He WON and there was no implied inequality in that.
The Father did not give the kingdom to Christ in a grudging manner. In fact, Paul used the word “charis” which means “grace” or “gracious.” Paul said, “Therefore, God has also highly exalted Him and has 'given' (charis) Him a name that is ABOVE every name.”
The Father gave the kingdom to His Son in a gracious manner as my father gladly gave me the baseball bat. But for each it was still the reward of fulfilling an agreement. This means that it is Christ's own kingdom and He rules over it with ABSOLUTE sovereignty.
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Matthew 11:27
There it is! The Son has ABSOLUTE sovereignty now. He may reveal the Father to whomsoever He wills.
The Father GRACIOUSLY gave the kingdom and ALL authority to the Son. Yet you GRUDGINGLY admit to Christ's Lordship. Prove your sincerity by saying “Jesus IS Lord!”
thinker
[/QUOTE]
TT, your baseball bat analogy falls short of making your point. The inequality lies in the fact that the father holds all the cards. The son could not just go and wash the car and then say Dad, you owe me a bat. The final decision is the fathers alone. Jesus was obedient to his God, and recieved the payment he had been promised. But to suggest Jesus could have said: “Hey God, I did the deed-pay up” is crazy.
Whether he did the deed or not, consider Job 41:11. “Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me.”
And whats the scrip about God's undeserved kindness being a gift to all, NOT BY WORKS, so that none can brag?
WJ,
We have dialogued many times concerning TT. My mind has not changed.
His posts are rambling and flailing and show little rigidity which he requires to slip out of tricky situations.
He brought ME into this discussion -as I pointed out:
Quote
TT,
Why are you appealling to me to answer what you cannot understand?Moreover, this is a dispute between you and T8.
His analogy leaves in impression of the Son 'demanding' his prize – which is a side point I was making.
TT makes it sound like I was saying that God was grudging – read again – it is the 'father/son' (Baseball) that I am speaking about. I said that his post makes it seem like that and that the son is 'Taking' his prize rather than 'receiving it'.In truth, I have no issue concerning 'equality/in-equality' – to me there is no issue and for that reason I don't understand why TT brought my name into this.
Further, TT's baseball bat is his permanently once given. The kingdom of God is NOT Jesus' permanently, but only until he accomplishes the task – then he hands it back to his father.
Mikeboll (I'm assuming from his post above) has also seen that you imply some sort of 'grabbing' of the prize by the Son – COS IT IS HIS – COS HE EARNED IT!!
TT, sorry to hear about your wife and about the snow. We had ours a few weeks ago but I still rode my bike to work through it.
“Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings…”
I just put the scenario to my son and asked him if one was greater than the other and he replied that the Giver of the Prize (also the owner in the case of God/Jesus) is greater than the one receiving the Prize.
If the prize giver was not also the 'owner' then it is contestable who, if any issue of equality should be raised, was greater or lesser.
Baring in mind also that the 'prize' in the case of God and Jesus is not permanently Jesus' issues of 'equality or in-equality' seems to be a mute point.
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 06 2010,13:47) “Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings…” I just put the scenario to my son and asked him if one was greater than the other and he replied that the Giver of the Prize (also the owner in the case of God/Jesus) is greater than the one receiving the Prize.
If the prize giver was not also the 'owner' then it is contestable who, if any issue of equality should be raised, was greater or lesser.
Baring in mind also that the 'prize' in the case of God and Jesus is not permanently Jesus' issues of 'equality or in-equality' seems to be a mute point.
Hi allThe logic that because someone gives someone else something means that the giver is greater than the receiver is flawed!
If the boy gives his Father his time and sweat by washing his Father’s car without receiving anything but just doing it out of his Love for his Father, does that make the Son greater than the Father? It absolutely does not.
The double talk that goes on about Jesus and his authority is evident because there is always a “disclosure” attached to the fact that Jesus has “ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER”. Jesus clearly told his disciples that the Father had given him “ALL THINGS”. The disciples understood that it was in his name (Jesus) that all things were done by and through!
But we hear disclosure statements like “the Father gave it to him so the Father is greater” or “Jesus cannot do anything without the Father doing it through him”!
These disclosure statements are meant to take the eyes off of the one who “HAS ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER, AND WHO HAS ALL THINGS, AND WHO IS RULING AND RIEGHNING WITH A NAME THAT IS ABOVE EVERY NAME, AND WHO HAS THE “TITLE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS”, NOT ONLY IN THIS WORLD BUT IN THE WORLD TO COME”!
The point is if the Father had all things and all authority and power and gave it to Jesus then that means that Jesus is equal to the Father in what he possesses and in authority and power, and since Jesus has a name above every name, it also means his name is equal to the Fathers.
This is why Jesus could say that no man comes to the Father but by him! John 14:6 This statement in itself shows equality because for the Hebrew to make such a statement would be one of blasphemy and Idolatry, and also for all those that claim he is the only way to the Father!
Finally to say that Jesus is less than the Father because the Father has given him all things is simply a moot point because 1 Cor 15 tells us that Jesus having all things will subject himself to the Father and give him back the Kingdom!
Does that mean that the Father is less than Jesus because he gives it all back to the Father?
Jesus left all things and the glory he shared with the Father to come in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin condemn sin in the flesh, and has now returned to his previous Glory! John 1:1, 14, Phil. 2:6-8, Rom 8:3, 2 Cor 8:9, John 6:62, John 17:5
The questions I ask all those that are opposed to Jesus being equal to the Father is…
1. Do you believe Jesus deserves the same honor as the Father? John 5:23
(Or is it just lip service but in your heart you think Jesus deserves less honor?)2. Do you love Jesus as your “Only Lord and Master” with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength? Jude 1:4, 5, Deut 6:4, 5, Luke 10:27
(Or is it just lip service but in your heart Jesus is not your “Only Lord and Master”?)Can you answer these question with a hearty yes or no without a disclosure?
Again to answer these questions as yes, to the Hebrew would mean you are making Jesus equal to God! This is exactly why the Jews wanted to kill him for they believed he was blaspheming!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
Jesus is the one who says the Father is greater. Jesus is the one who says he can't do anything on his own, only what the Father wills. Are you saying the very words of Jesus are our disclaimers? They are actually Jesus' disclaimers. He was saying, “Even though to your mere mortal eyes and minds it seems as if I am a god because of the things you've seen happen through me, understand that (disclaimer): all this is only possible from my Father. I couldn't have done a single thing were it not His will.”
To answer your first question, absolutey Jesus deserves the same honor as the Father. Why? The Father entrusted all judgement to the Son. Kind of like God told us, “I'm putting my son in charge for a while, treat him exactly as you would treat me if I were there.”
Read a couple verses later, at John 5:26, “For as the Father has life in himself, so he has GRANTED the Son to have life in himself.
Can't you see that if Jesus were equal, the Father would not have had to GRANT him anything. I honor the Son because God said to.
As for your second question, yes I love Jesus my Lord, Master, King and Savior. But you list scrips that are talking about two different persons. Deut. has Moses telling the Israelite to love Jehovah with all their heart, soul and strength. Luke 10:27 has a man repeating Moses instructions to Jesus to love Jehovah. And Jude is talking about Jesus as master and Lord. Can you really not tell from the context of the scrip whether someone is talking about Jehovah or Jesus when they use the words lord, savior, king, etc.?
And the word ONLY lord and master is to distinguish Jesus as the ONLY leader of the church so false prophets would not be believed. It is not there to say that now Jesus is God and Jehovah somehow vanished.
Quote (mikeboll @ Feb. 06 2010,16:50) Jesus is the one who says the Father is greater.
mikeYou will have to do better than this for Jesus statement you refer to was in the days of his flesh before he recieved back all things from the Father.
Read 1 Cor 15 and you will see that he is not yet subjected himself to the Father, which means at this time he is “Equal to” the Father in everyway!
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll @ Feb. 06 2010,16:50) Kind of like God told us, “I'm putting my son in charge for a while, treat him exactly as you would treat me if I were there.”
Mike“Kind of like God to us”? HMMM! I do not see any scriptures that says Jesus is “Kinda like God”, but in fact the Father himself calls him God and the Apostles also.
He is either God in every sense or he is not. You are just making a play on words!
If he is “kind of like God” to you, then you must honour him “Kind of like God”. Which would mean he doesn't deserve the same honour as the Father!
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll @ Feb. 06 2010,16:50) Can't you see that if Jesus were equal, the Father would not have had to GRANT him anything. I honor the Son because God said to.
MikeAgain, he was given back what was already his.
He came to freely give his life! That was his choice!
Besides there you go giving the disclosure again. You see only one side of the coin.
Jesus has life “IN HIMSELF”, only God can have life in himself!
BTW, it was Jesus that said “To honour him even as they honour the Father”. No wonder the Jews wanted to kill him!
To the Jew for anybody or anyone to say they should be honoured as God would be Blasphemy and idolatry for those who do!
Blessings WJ
WJ,
sigh…!
Again, he was given back what was already his.
He came to freely give his life! That was his choice!
Besides there you go giving the disclosure gain. You see only one side of the coin.
Jesus has life “IN HIMSELF”, only God can have life in himself!
BTW, it was Jesus that said “To honour him even as they honour the Father”. No wonder the Jews wanted to kill him!
To the Jew for anybody or anyone to say they should be honoured as God would be Blasphemy and idolatry for those who do!
Blessings WJ
oops.
WJ,
sigh…!
Quote
1) Again, he was given back what was already his.2) He came to freely give his life! That was his choice!
3) Besides there you go giving the disclosure gain. You see only one side of the coin.
4) Jesus has life “IN HIMSELF”, only God can have life in himself!
5) BTW, it was Jesus that said “To honour him even as they honour the Father”. No wonder the Jews wanted to kill him!
6) To the Jew for anybody or anyone to say they should be honoured as God would be Blasphemy and idolatry for those who do!
Blessings WJ
1) What of it if he has – if he wasn't equal in the first place he isn't equal after.
2) What of it… anything to do with anything being argued here
3) Disclosure – because they are from Jesus himself or God himself or the apostles.
4) Life in him – because this is purpose – to be the Resurrector – this is appointed to him by God himself by means of the Holy Spirit.
5) A large part of the new Testament is about the HONOR, GLORY and PRAISE of the son – and quite rightly so. It is WORSHIP that to given ONLY TO THE FATHER. Revelations shows the Father and the Son being glorified praise and honored. Jesus says that honoring him honors the father who sent him. This perfectly correct.
6) WE ARE NOT JEWS.
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 04 2010,09:20) Jesus cannot be “OUR Lord” without being God. thinker
Hi Thinker,Why do you constantly ignore PROOF I give to you?
My last Post <–Click Here!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
