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Hi WJ,
Jesus is not the God of those in Christ.
He is Lord.[1Cor8]Why do you continue to promote several gods?
repent.Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 05 2010,04:53) WJ
your education swells you brain ,you have to much knowledge and can no longer built ,you only can argue about it
t,You need study God's covenant keeping nature:
Genesis 9:15: and I will remember My covenant which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh.
Exodus 6:5: And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel whom the Egyptians keep in bondage, and I have remembered My covenant.
Leviticus 26:42: 42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
There is a lot more. Let me know when I can stop.
God made a covenant with Christ:
Galatians 3:17:…and this I say, A covenant confirmed before by God to Christ, the law, that came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not set aside, to make void the promise,
When my father paid me the baseball bat for washing his car he did not say, “I am giving this to you because I am your father and I am above you. Your washing the car did not have anything to do with it.” No! My father paid me what he OWED me because he was a just man and because the baseball bat was rightfully mine!
The Father and the Son had a covenant agreement. The Father did not say, “I am giving you ALL authority because I am above you and not because of anything you did.” No! The Father remembered His covenant with Christ and paid what He OWED because He is a JUST God and because ALL authority in heaven and in earth is rightfully Christ's!
Paul said that Christ was exalted for His obedience for His being obedient unto death. There was no inequality in that covenant or that exchange.
Your view of covenants and of justice are contrary to what God has revealed about His righteous nature!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 05 2010,05:09) Quote (Gene @ Feb. 05 2010,04:27) Thinker……..So now we play the inequality covenant game, is there no end to the deceptions you Trinitarians use. Show us (ONE) Scripture that say there is no :INEQUALITY IN COVENANTS THAT RELATES TO AUTHORITY, YOUR FATHER DID NOT LOOSE HIS AUTHORITY OVER YOU BECAUSE HE ENTERED INTO A COVENANT WITH YOU. Jesus was never and still is not equal with His GOD, and Our GOD, His FATHER and OUR FATHER. Thinker pure TRINITARIAN GARBAGE.
Gene,
You did not pay attention to what I said. I said that my Father was not above me in that exchange. I said that there was no inequality in that exchange.But Christ's Father NEVER was over Him in the way that my father was over me. I was born under my Father's authority. Jesus became a servant under the Father of His own fee choice. Paul is clear about it (Philipppians 2).
As for you….Please stop with the talk about confessing Christ a Lord to the Father's glory INTIL you yourself confess Jesus as Lord. Confessing Jesus as “a lord” won't do.
4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our ONLY Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Jude 4
Jesus is our “ONLY master and Lord.” He is not “a lord.” So be quiet until you are ready to truly glorify the Father.
thinker
Thinker ….Scripture says Jesus was born (UNDER) the LAW it does not say he volunteered anything, Jesus said the FATHER was ABOVE HIM, He even said He COULD do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, What part of that you do not understand all thing are under the control of (ONE) GOD, (ALL CREATION) with or without their permission. YOU Try to Make Jesus HIS OWN GOD is a FALSE TEACHING and it is the result of those who snick in unaware and have made merchandise of the (TRUE CHURCH) long ago and you are of those who still support them and there APOSTATE RELIGION>The reason you can't stand scripture that say Jesus is Lord TO THE GLORY OF GOD, is because it tares at your screwed up ideology that Jesus himself is a GOD. It has nothing to do with me saying it right thinker.
Remember Jesus Said < Not those who say unto me "LORD LORD, shall enter into the Kingdom of GOD , but those who do the WILL of MY FATHER " who was in Heaven (NOT) on EARTH as you lying TRINITARIANS try to Make it out to be.
Trinitarians are of those who have corrupted the way of truth and shall all give account of it especially those who preach and teach it.
Thanks be to GOD more and more are beginning to see through the LIES taught by that FALSE IDOLATROUS RELIGION.
WE have and believe in (ONE GOD) and ONLY ONE GOD as Jesus HIMSELF said “FOR THOU ARE THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. WE simply believe Jesus' words when are you going to start to thinker. IMO
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 05 2010,05:42) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 05 2010,05:09) Quote (Gene @ Feb. 05 2010,04:27) Thinker……..So now we play the inequality covenant game, is there no end to the deceptions you Trinitarians use. Show us (ONE) Scripture that say there is no :INEQUALITY IN COVENANTS THAT RELATES TO AUTHORITY, YOUR FATHER DID NOT LOOSE HIS AUTHORITY OVER YOU BECAUSE HE ENTERED INTO A COVENANT WITH YOU. Jesus was never and still is not equal with His GOD, and Our GOD, His FATHER and OUR FATHER. Thinker pure TRINITARIAN GARBAGE.
Gene,
You did not pay attention to what I said. I said that my Father was not above me in that exchange. I said that there was no inequality in that exchange.But Christ's Father NEVER was over Him in the way that my father was over me. I was born under my Father's authority. Jesus became a servant under the Father of His own fee choice. Paul is clear about it (Philipppians 2).
As for you….Please stop with the talk about confessing Christ a Lord to the Father's glory INTIL you yourself confess Jesus as Lord. Confessing Jesus as “a lord” won't do.
4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our ONLY Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Jude 4
Jesus is our “ONLY master and Lord.” He is not “a lord.” So be quiet until you are ready to truly glorify the Father.
thinker
Thinker ….Scripture says Jesus was born (UNDER) the LAW it does not say he volunteeredany think, Jesus said the FATHER was ABOVE HIM, He even said He COULD do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, What part of that you do not understand all thing are under the control of (ONE) GOD, (ALL CREATION) with or without their permission. YOU Try to Make Jesus HIS OWN GOD is a FALSE TEACHING and it is the result of those who snick in unaware and have made merchandise of the (TRUE CHURCH) long ago and you are of those who still support them and there APOSTATE RELIGION>The reason you can stand scripture that say Jesus is Lord TO THE GLORY OF GOD, is because it tare at your screwed up ideology that Jesus himself is a GOD. It has nothing to do with me saying it right thinker.
Remember Jesus Said < Not those who say unto me "LORD LORD, shall enter into the Kingdom of GOD , but those who do the WILL of MY FATHER " who was in Heaven (NOT) on EARTH as you lying TRINITARIANS try to Make it out to be.
Trinitarians are of those who have corrupted the way of truth and shall all give account of it especially those who preach and teach it.
Thanks be to GOD more and more are beginning to see through the LIES taught by that FALSE IDOLATROUS RELIGION.
WE have and believe in (ONE GOD) and ONLY ONE GOD as Jesus HIMSELF said “FOR THOU ARE THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. WE simply believe Jesus' words when are you going to start to thinker. IMO
Gene,In Philippians 2 Paul said that Jesus “took upon Himself the form of a servant….” His being born under the law was therefore voluntary.
He took it upon Himself and was born under the law. The rest of us are just born under the law. A half truth is a lie Gene.
thinker
gene
Jesus volontaires to do God will ,he wilfully accomplish the prophesies regarding the messiah that is why at the end he says all is accomplish and died
Hi TT,
So your god has no real authority?How long will you insult God?
Repent and turn to the God of Israel.
His Son told you how and the door remains open.Hi WJ,
Jesus told men to build on his teachings-that is wisdom.
When did you choose to build on human derivations like trinity instead and why?TT
When my father paid me the baseball bat for washing his car he did not say, “I am giving this to you because I am your father and I am above you. Your washing the car did not have anything to do with it.” No! My father paid me what he OWED me because he was a just man and because the baseball bat was rightfully mine
IF YOU WERE NOT HIS SON YOU WOULD HAVE NO BASEBALL BAT,SO YOU RECIEVED THE DEAL BECAUSE YOU ARE YOUR FATHER SON.
Terraricca………..Jesus did not (WILLING) want to die, He did it in obedience to the WILL of GOD not HIS WILL. Jesus by the (GRACE) (God's influencing on his heart) by GOD died for our sin because of the Glory that was set before HIM. Jesus plainly said He could do nothing of himself. His obedience was the result of GOD'S Spirit in him. You keep trying to make salvation about (OUR) OWN SELF WILLS. “THE SON OF MAN CAME (NOT) TO DO HIS WILL BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT HIM, again “IT IS WRITTEN IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOKS CONCERNING ME (I) COME TO DO (THY) WILL O GOD”,and again (NOT) My WILL BUT THY WILL BE DONE”. The example of Jesus was to show us that with THE SPIRIT OF GOD we can put our WILLS to (DEATH) not to think we BY our So-called “FREE WILLS” save ourselves. Your views on so-called “FREE WILLS” is corrupted and simply not true. It was God (IN) Christ that was consolidating the world unto himself. You do not seem to have put YOUR WILL to DEATH Yet. It takes GOD'S Spirit to accomplish that, rigthiousness of the self, is only Pride talking. IMO
GENE
God did not influence Christ so that he will be controled to act in the way he did,
Christ love his father and does evrything his father wants him to do ,but he does it willfully;
JN 10:7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
JN 10:8 “All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
JN 10:9 “ I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
JN 10:10 “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
JN 10:11 “ I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
JN 10:12 “He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
JN 10:13 “He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep.
JN 10:14 “ I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
JN 10:15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
JN 10:16 “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
JN 10:17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
JN 10:18 “ No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”MT 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to GIVE His life a ransom for many.”
Jn 10:18 No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father
Can you read this
thethinker, do you not know that everyone tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father?
They way you carry on you would think that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is God to the glory of Lord Father.It is no laughing matter. You shouldn't go around saying that one thing is the other. Just stick to what scripture says, and you cannot err.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 05 2010,02:29) thethinker, do you not know that everyone tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father?
They way you carry on you would think that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is God to the glory of Lord Father.It is no laughing matter. You shouldn't go around saying that one thing is the other. Just stick to what scripture says, and you cannot err.
T8Good advice…
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; “The Lord our God is ONE LORD: And thou shalt “love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength“: this is the first commandment. Mk 12:30, 31
Do you Love the *Lord Jesus* “with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength?
I hope the answer to this is yes, for it is no laughing matter!
WJ
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 05 2010,14:45) WJ what is the Holy spirit ??your understanding
TWrong thread!
WJ
The arian dissenters?
The fact that history and the Emperor favoured Athanasius doesn't make Athanasius right. Especially when you consider that the whole world is under sway of the evil one. As for Arius, I am not too familiar with his teachings to say that I agree with him. Of course history was written by those that opposed him, so I suppose that they wouldn't have been too flattering. Whenever his name is mentioned to this day, it is said that he started a heresy. Of course that is what they would say to any opposing view of theirs objectively speaking.
I guess to the person who started this topic, it would be safe to assume that you are a disciple of Athanasius.
If you have any feedback on Arius, then feel free to contribute to the topic dedicated to him.
Arianism
Arius (AD 250 or 256 – 336) was a Christian presbyter from Alexandria, Egypt. His teachings about the nature of the Godhead, now referred to as Arianism, provoked great controversy within the fourth-century Church through their assertion that the Son of God, incarnate as Jesus Christ, was not consubstantial or coeternal with the Father. Rather, taught Arius, there was once a time, before he was begotten, that the Son did not exist. Though opposed by his bishop, Alexander of Alexandria, Arius persisted in dissiminating his views throughout the Church, ultimately leading to the calling of the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD by the Roman emperor Constantine I. This conclave excommunicated Arius and his adherents, rejecting his teaching utterly in favor of Athanasian Trinitarianism, which became—and has remained, for seventeen centuries thereafter—Christianity's dominant dogma on the subject. However, the doctrines of Arius continued to find followers throughout various portions of Christiandom, persisting in various Gothic and Germanic kingdoms until finally suppressed in the seventh century…..
Arius's doctrine
In explaining his actions against Arius, Alexander of Alexandria wrote a letter to Alexander of Constantinople and Eusebius of Nicomedia (where the emperor was then residing), detailing the errors into which he believed Arius had fallen. According to Alexander, Arius taught:
That God was not always the Father, but that there was a period when he was not the Father; that the Word of God was not from eternity, but was made out of nothing; for that the ever-existing God (‘the I AM’—the eternal One) made him who did not previously exist, out of nothing; wherefore there was a time when he did not exist, inasmuch as the Son is a creature and a work. That he is neither like the Father as it regards his essence, nor is by nature either the Father’s true Word, or true Wisdom, but indeed one of his works and creatures, being erroneously called Word and Wisdom, since he was himself made of God’s own Word and the Wisdom which is in God, whereby God both made all things and him also. Wherefore he is as to his nature mutable and susceptible of change, as all other rational creatures are: hence the Word is alien to and other than the essence of God; and the Father is inexplicable by the Son, and invisible to him, for neither does the Word perfectly and accurately know the Father, neither can he distinctly see him. The Son knows not the nature of his own essence: for he was made on our account, in order that God might create us by him, as by an instrument; nor would he ever have existed, unless God had wished to create us.[37]
Alexander also referrs to Arius's poetical Thalia:
God has not always been Father; there was a moment when he was alone, and was not yet Father: later he became so. The Son is not from eternity; he came from nothing.[38] Source
Blessings WJ
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 05 2010,18:29) thethinker, do you not know that everyone tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father?
They way you carry on you would think that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is God to the glory of Lord Father.It is no laughing matter. You shouldn't go around saying that one thing is the other. Just stick to what scripture says, and you cannot err.
t8,You are quite mistaken. Even WJ and I disagree ont this one. The expression “every tongue” refers to the elect of God. Paul was not saying that eventually every tongue indidcriminately will confess Jesus Christ as Lord. Those who die without Christ will curse Him forever.
Compare Paul's statement with Isaiah who said that the confession of every tongue is UNTO SALVATION.
Quote 22 “ Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
24 He shall say,‘ Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength.
To Him men shall come,
And all shall be ashamed
Who are incensed against Him.
25 In the LORD all the descendants of Israel
Shall be justified, and shall glory.’” Isaiah 45:4, 23-25Note that part I highlighted in bold. It says that “every tongue” shall TAKE AN OATH that the Lord is his righteousness. Then it says that there are still those who are against Him. Therefore, to confess Jesus Christ as Lord WILL ALWAYS RESULT IN SALVATION. Are you a universalist?
Refer back to verse 4 and see that “every tongue” has reference ONLY to the elect.
Revelation 5 supports my interpretation. It says that EVERY CREATURE in heaven and in earth and under the earth worships both the Father AND the Lamb. We know that “every creature” can only be the saved.
There is no scriptural evidence that every tongue indiscriminately will confess Jesus Christ as Lord. Paul referred to Isaiah's prophecy which that every tongue would TAKE AN OATH and hold the Lord as his righteousness. According to verse 4 these are God's elect.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 06 2010,11:34) Arianism Arius (AD 250 or 256 – 336) was a Christian presbyter from Alexandria, Egypt. His teachings about the nature of the Godhead, now referred to as Arianism, provoked great controversy within the fourth-century Church through their assertion that the Son of God, incarnate as Jesus Christ, was not consubstantial or coeternal with the Father. Rather, taught Arius, there was once a time, before he was begotten, that the Son did not exist. Though opposed by his bishop, Alexander of Alexandria, Arius persisted in dissiminating his views throughout the Church, ultimately leading to the calling of the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD by the Roman emperor Constantine I. This conclave excommunicated Arius and his adherents, rejecting his teaching utterly in favor of Athanasian Trinitarianism, which became—and has remained, for seventeen centuries thereafter—Christianity's dominant dogma on the subject. However, the doctrines of Arius continued to find followers throughout various portions of Christiandom, persisting in various Gothic and Germanic kingdoms until finally suppressed in the seventh century…..
Arius's doctrine
In explaining his actions against Arius, Alexander of Alexandria wrote a letter to Alexander of Constantinople and Eusebius of Nicomedia (where the emperor was then residing), detailing the errors into which he believed Arius had fallen. According to Alexander, Arius taught:
That God was not always the Father, but that there was a period when he was not the Father; that the Word of God was not from eternity, but was made out of nothing; for that the ever-existing God (‘the I AM’—the eternal One) made him who did not previously exist, out of nothing; wherefore there was a time when he did not exist, inasmuch as the Son is a creature and a work. That he is neither like the Father as it regards his essence, nor is by nature either the Father’s true Word, or true Wisdom, but indeed one of his works and creatures, being erroneously called Word and Wisdom, since he was himself made of God’s own Word and the Wisdom which is in God, whereby God both made all things and him also. Wherefore he is as to his nature mutable and susceptible of change, as all other rational creatures are: hence the Word is alien to and other than the essence of God; and the Father is inexplicable by the Son, and invisible to him, for neither does the Word perfectly and accurately know the Father, neither can he distinctly see him. The Son knows not the nature of his own essence: for he was made on our account, in order that God might create us by him, as by an instrument; nor would he ever have existed, unless God had wished to create us.[37]
Alexander also referrs to Arius's poetical Thalia:
God has not always been Father; there was a moment when he was alone, and was not yet Father: later he became so. The Son is not from eternity; he came from nothing.[38] Source
Blessings WJ
WJ,This is one of the chief problems with anti-trinitarianism. It means that there was a time when God was alone. Perish the thought!
thinker
TO JA:
Please explain Paul's “therefore” clause in Philippians 2:9:
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Paul CLEARLY said that Jesus VOLUNTARILY took upon Himself the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men. And being found in fashion as a man He humbled Himself and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross. THEREFORE, God has also highly exalted Him and has given Him a name that is ABOVE every name….”
Explain the inequality here. I see no inequality. I gave the illustration of my father and I making an agreement that I would wash his car and that he would purchase the baseball bat and give it to me. I received the baseball bat as the appropriate reward for what I had done. After I had fulfilled my end of the agreement the baseball bat became RIGHTFULLY mine.
God exalted Jesus and gave Him ALL authority in heaven and in earth as the appropriate reward for His obedience. There is no inequality in that at all. None!
Jesus received the kingdom and ALL authority over it because He fulfilled His end of the covenant of redemption and therefore ALL authority became RIGHTFULLY HIS. There was no inequality in this at all. You guys have not thought it through.
The kingdom RIGHTFULLY belongs to Christ and He is the “ONLY Master and Lord” over it (Jude 4).
You can't out think thethinker so all you have is to malign him by saying that he is led as a dog on a chain. I don't see you convincing anyone of your beliefs by such statements.
thinker
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