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Quote (Gene @ Dec. 30 2009,10:28) WJ………..TO simplify this JUST SHOW US A SINGLE SCRIPTURE WHERE JESUS EVER SAID HE WAS GOD. My Bible says He was going to His FATHER and OUR FATHER, HIS GOD and OUR GOD, interestingly He seem to forgot to includes his self as a GOD in that Statement, And When Jesus was Praying to HIS GOD and OUR GOD, He said FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD. So tell us who you TRINITARIANS can just ignore those as if the do not exist in you own bibles. AMAZING< the degree of disillusionment, that you can't even understand simple straight forward scriptures , but just continue to deny they even exist in your bibles. Truly Amazing
Gene,
He claimed to be the Son of God which was the same thing as claiming He was God in Jewish thought. He accepted worship from Thomas while angels rejected worship from men.Are you going to align yourself with the rest of creation and worship the Father AND the Son (Rev. 5:13)? Or will you continue to number yourself among the dissenters?
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 30 2009,10:36) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 29 2009,18:28) WJ………..TO simplify this JUST SHOW US A SINGLE SCRIPTURE WHERE JESUS EVER SAID HE WAS GOD. My Bible says He was going to His FATHER and OUR FATHER, HIS GOD and OUR GOD, interestingly He seem to forgot to includes his self as a GOD in that Statement, And When Jesus was Praying to HIS GOD and OUR GOD, He said FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD. So tell us who you TRINITARIANS can just ignore those as if the do not exist in you own bibles. AMAZING< the degree of disillusionment, that you can't even understand simple straight forward scriptures , but just continue to deny they even exist in your bibles. Truly Amazing
GeneYou didn't as usuall address my points but instead continue with your pre-ressurection claims.
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:7
Do you see it Gene?
He didn't say Thomas should have known God in him or henceforth he knows God in him or he has seen God in him, did he? Now couple this with the Apostles personally calling him God and you have your proof!
Gene is my points in scripture or not! Why do you not answer them?
WJ
WJ…….But Jesus said clearly the FATHER (WAS) (IN) HIM , that is why Thomas Said what he Said , because He came to realize GOD was (IN) Jesus. AS Scripture and Jesus says He was, The question is HOW was GOD the FATHER (IN) HIM< Is was not that Jesus was a GOD, it was BY the ANOINTING that was IN HIM, GOD is a SPIRIT and can exist (IN) all and be Through ALL, but that does not make them a GOD nor does it make Jesus a GOD either. How simple how clear it becomes when you lose the teachings of the TRINITY everything just fall into place, you don't even need 600 scholars to try to explain it to you, Just GOD Spirit of TRUTH. IMOQuote (Gene @ Dec. 30 2009,11:06) thinker……The elementary teachings of or (ABOUT)Christ has nothing to do with the Old Testament, it has to do with the fundamental or basic teachings about Jesus, (him dying for our sins and raising from the dead and etc) But you trinitarians cant understand that so you try to push the Old Testament away, as if its teachings were not relevant, But interestingly the Beraens did not think that way and Paul commended them as being more Noble then those in Thesolnica because they searched the Scriptures (old Testament) to see if these things were so or not. Is there no end to you Trinitarian tricks to twist the plain words of GOD? YOU WHO PREACH Jesus as a GOD , go read 2 Ths 2 and see what happens to those who have turned the IMAGE of the man Jesus into the Man of SIN by preaching a LIE, and that LIE is that Jesus is GOD, and Jesus will abolished it at His return by His very own Mouth, as It say He will. Then that LIE will never again be taught and that LIE (IS) the JESUS IS A GOD. That should cause you and WJ some very deep concern thinker. IMO
Gene,
It does not say the “elementary teachings ABOUT Christ.” It refers to the elementary teachings that Christ Himself taught with faith in God being one of those teachings. We are supposed to leave Christ's elementary teachings concerning faith in God.Christ taught a faith in God which was more in accord with Moses and the old covenant. The apostles cancelled many of Christ's teachings. It was Christ's work to give them the foundational teachings. It was the work of the apostles to move them on to perfection. This included moving them to faith in Christ:
“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
John explicitly said that the purpose of his writing was to move them to faith in the Son of God. Uh, Gene, faith in the Son of God is a form of worship my friend.
Get out of the old covenant! You are not an old covenant Israelite under Deuteronomy 6:4. You are supposed to have faith in the Father and the Son now. Faith is a form of worship.
You are a dissenter Gene!
thinker
Thinker……..Good call me a decenter, at least i and Not and IDOLATER by creating more then ONE GOD and teaching A LIE, by trying to turn Jesus into a GOD, When He never said He was A GOD. SO you are right when it comes to the false teaching of the TRINITY I am gladly a true decenter. Thanks for the compliment thinker.
gene
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 30 2009,10:37) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 30 2009,10:09) thinker……Why not worship who Jesus said to worship and who He worshiped, GOD the FATHER ONLY. Unless you believe Jesus went to himself and worshiped Himself. The Trinity is not only a FALSE teaching it is Blasphemous, to the SPIRIT. Where did Jesus ever say He was a GOD? or where did he ever say (HE) Created everything. Or Where did He ever say to worship HIM. Surely if He were a GOD he would have required it of US. The closest he came to say any thing was that were should Honor the Son even as we HONOR the FATHER. HONOR Means (RESPECT HIM) not WORSHIP HIM. Even when we Honor in submission it is the the GLORY of the FATHER, NOT HIM. GOD the FATHER has said we Should not worship any other GOD as a GOD, but HIM ALONE and He Told Us there Is NO OTHER GOD BESIDES HIM> What part of that, you trinitarians cant stand to Believe. But you brazen Trinitarians think you can trample under foot GOD'S Direct Commandments to US, and CREATE another GOD, When HE (PLAINLY) SAYS THERE IS (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES HIM ALONE. ARE you deaf to scripture can you not read the simple truth, or has a spirit of (DELUSION) over taken you? gene
Gene,
Hebrews 6:1-2 says that we are to abandon the “elementary teachings of Christ.” Faith in God as you understand it is old covenant and to is to be abandonedQuote Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary doctrines of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. New covenant faith in God requires us to have faith in Christ.
Quote These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. We are under the apostolic requirement now which is faith in Christ. Get with God's new covenant program Gene. Your old covenant ways amount to disobedience. The whole creation worships the Father AND the Lamb (Revelation 5:13). If this is “blasphemy” then I blaspheme with all of creation.
Don't be a dissenter Gene!
thinker
The problem is IMO Thinker is that you don't understanding WHY we are called to believe in CHRIST…the anointed human being.Jesus Christ is the substance of what the Father CREATED to cause us to believe in Him. By believing in the anointed human being and the fact that the Father raised him from the dead, we are showing our Trust in the Father, that He indeed keeps the promises of which He had made before time began. YHVH had promised before time began eternal life. We are to believe that Jesus is the firstborn of MANY BRETHREN. As with Abraham, Faith is accounted as righteousness, believing that Jesus is the firstborn of many brethren is the PINNACLE of YHVH's work to bring mankind into having Faith in Him.
You don't seem to believe IN any of that… this truth seems to be far from you, even though it is clearly laid out IMO in scripture.
1 Peter 1:17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Romans 8:29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up–if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,…..8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
John 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
John 12:44Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.
John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Mark 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the
understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” But after that no one dared question Him.Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Please answer me this Thinker,
When Jesus was raised from the dead, is it your belief that he was changed into an immortal human being, or was he changed back into an immortal god?
As well, we see that Jesus was completely dependent upon the Father, so what happened to that one-third part of your god while Jesus was mortal?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Dec. 31 2009,05:28) Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 30 2009,10:37) Quote (Gene @ Dec. 30 2009,10:09) thinker……Why not worship who Jesus said to worship and who He worshiped, GOD the FATHER ONLY. Unless you believe Jesus went to himself and worshiped Himself. The Trinity is not only a FALSE teaching it is Blasphemous, to the SPIRIT. Where did Jesus ever say He was a GOD? or where did he ever say (HE) Created everything. Or Where did He ever say to worship HIM. Surely if He were a GOD he would have required it of US. The closest he came to say any thing was that were should Honor the Son even as we HONOR the FATHER. HONOR Means (RESPECT HIM) not WORSHIP HIM. Even when we Honor in submission it is the the GLORY of the FATHER, NOT HIM. GOD the FATHER has said we Should not worship any other GOD as a GOD, but HIM ALONE and He Told Us there Is NO OTHER GOD BESIDES HIM> What part of that, you trinitarians cant stand to Believe. But you brazen Trinitarians think you can trample under foot GOD'S Direct Commandments to US, and CREATE another GOD, When HE (PLAINLY) SAYS THERE IS (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES HIM ALONE. ARE you deaf to scripture can you not read the simple truth, or has a spirit of (DELUSION) over taken you? gene
Gene,
Hebrews 6:1-2 says that we are to abandon the “elementary teachings of Christ.” Faith in God as you understand it is old covenant and to is to be abandonedQuote Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary doctrines of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. New covenant faith in God requires us to have faith in Christ.
Quote These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. We are under the apostolic requirement now which is faith in Christ. Get with God's new covenant program Gene. Your old covenant ways amount to disobedience. The whole creation worships the Father AND the Lamb (Revelation 5:13). If this is “blasphemy” then I blaspheme with all of creation.
Don't be a dissenter Gene!
thinker
The problem is IMO Thinker is that you don't understanding WHY we are called to believe in CHRIST…the anointed human being.Jesus Christ is the substance of what the Father CREATED to cause us to believe in Him. By believing in the anointed human being and the fact that the Father raised him from the dead, we are showing our Trust in the Father, that He indeed keeps the promises of which He had made before time began. YHVH had promised before time began eternal life. We are to believe that Jesus is the firstborn of MANY BRETHREN. As with Abraham, Faith is accounted as righteousness, believing that Jesus is the firstborn of many brethren is the PINNACLE of YHVH's work to bring mankind into having Faith in Him.
You don't seem to believe IN any of that… this truth seems to be far from you, even though it is clearly laid out IMO in scripture.
1 Peter 1:17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Romans 8:29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up–if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,…..8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
John 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
John 12:44Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.
John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Mark 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these
.” 32 So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” But after that no one dared question Him.Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Jodi Lee,Jesus said,
“Believe in God, believe ALSO in Me.”
This is clearly a departure from Moses in Deuteronomy 6:4 is it not?
The apostle John said,
” He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.“
This is clearly a departure from Moses and Deuteronomy 6:4 even by Arain standards.
Hebrews 6 warns us not to continue in faith toward God [in its old covenant content]. The new covenant rule is faith in the Father AND the Son. This is manifested by faith in Christ.
“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved and your house.”
If you deny that the content of faith has changed under the new covenant then you do not have even one ounce of God's gospel truth in your bones. We are not Israelites under Moses. So don't impose your old covenant principles on God's new covenant people. Paul said that to rebuild those things would make him a transgressor against the new covenant (Galatians).
Note that “every creature” worships the Father AND the Lamb (Rev. 5:13). This is God's new covenant way. YOU ARE THE DISSENTER JODI. I am the conformist.
thinker
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Dec. 31 2009,05:37) Please answer me this Thinker, When Jesus was raised from the dead, is it your belief that he was changed into an immortal human being, or was he changed back into an immortal god?
As well, we see that Jesus was completely dependent upon the Father, so what happened to that one-third part of your god while Jesus was mortal?
This thread is about Revelation 5:13 which says that “every creature” worships the Father AND the Lamb and the Arain's dissension from this. I have shown that we are commanded have faith in both the Father AND the Son in this dispensation. Faith is indeed a form of worship. Ergo….
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 31 2009,10:00) Hi TT,
Belief in the Son of God does not make for us two gods.
Twisted logic Nick.“Believe in God believe ALSO in Me.”
This is a departure from Deuteronomy 6:4 is it not? Furthermore, trinitarians do NOT believe in two gods.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 31 2009,10:00) Hi TT,
Belief in the Son of God does not make for us two gods.
How does it matter Nick. Deuteronomy 6:4 allowed for only ONE object of faith. Therefore, even by Arain standards Christ's statement, “Believe in God believe ALSO im Me” is a departure from Moses.We worship the Father AND the Son because we are to believe in both for faith is a form of worship. Every creature worships the Father AND the Son (Rev. 5:13). You are the dissenter Nick. I am the conformist.
thinker
Hi TT,
Really?
Your self justifying wriggling is too much sometimes.For us there is one God the Father AND one Lord Jesus[1Cor8]
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 31 2009,11:25) Hi TT,
Really?
Your self justifying wriggling is too much sometimes.For us there is one God the Father AND one Lord Jesus[1Cor8]
What about Thomas. He addressed Jesus saying, “My Lord AND my God.”Okay, so we see that the whole creation worships the Father AND the Son including Thomas. Yet you dissent. Why?
thinker
Hi TT,
When Thomas saw Jesus he was also seeing God in him.
Jesus taught him personally about this in Jn14.Why do you refuse to worship the God of Israel and make other gods?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 31 2009,11:46) Hi TT,
When Thomas saw Jesus he was also seeing God in him.
Jesus taught him personally about this in Jn14.Why do you refuse to worship the God of Israel and make other gods?
Again, you change the narrative Nick. Thomas addressed Jesus calling Him, “My Lord and my God.” I do not worship God according to the Mosaic code. Moses has been abolished. The apostle John said that I am to believe in the name of the Son of God and to put my confidence in Him (1 John 5:13). It is by this rule that God the Father is glorified.thinker
hi TT,
He saw his Lord and also his God.Why do you dissent from the ways of God by making Him a wierd trinity?
How can you know God??Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 31 2009,11:55) hi TT,
He saw his Lord and also his God.Why do you dissent from the ways of God by making Him a wierd trinity?
How can you know God??
He saw only Jesus and addressed Him as “My Lord and my God.” Deal with it Nick.thinker
Hi TT,
God was in him reconciling the world to Himself.
You should believe this because Christ in you is your hope of glory.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 31 2009,11:55) hi TT,
He saw his Lord and also his God.Why do you dissent from the ways of God by making Him a wierd trinity?
How can you know God??
Thomas saw only Jesus and addressed Him as “My Lord and my God.” Jesus replied saying,“Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
It says that Thomas saw Jesus.
thinker
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