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Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 19 2010,03:05) Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 16 2010,17:44) Amen to that post brother Marty. May God help us to have united opinion on our Saviour. Peace and love
Adam
Who do you think is Savior? Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the “source” of eternal salvation. The New Testament repeatedly says that Christ is the Savior and that we are His people.thinker
Hebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,Acts 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–
Jesus is our savior ONLY because he followed in the Will and the plan of the Father.
Luke 22:42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. 44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
In his suffering Jesus denied his will and followed the will of His Father. Jesus is our savior because God's will MADE him be our savior, thus ultimately making God our savior through Jesus.
Once again it was the plan and will of the Father that we have eternal life. Could God have made a different plan to bring us eternal life without Jesus, who is to say, but it is besides the point.
We need to give proper credit where credit is due.
Every knee should bow to the CHRIST, the MAN anointed with the Holy Spirit who through the work of God's Spirit was able to keep himself holy and die for us.
We DO NOT bow to Jesus because he is the one True God, but because he IS the MAN who IS fulfilling the One True God the Father's Will.
Jodi Lee said:
Quote Jesus is our savior ONLY because he followed in the Will and the plan of the Father. Yet God said, “Besides me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11). Either Christ is God or He is not our “only” Savior as Jodi Lee said.
Paul said,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for HIMSELF a people for HIS OWN possession, zealous for good works. Titus 2:13-14
Paul CLEARLY said that Jesus Christ is our “God and Savior” and that He is purifying for “HIMSELF” a people for “HIS OWN” possession.
Jodi Lee:
Quote In his suffering Jesus denied his will and followed the will of His Father. Jesus is our savior because God's will MADE him be our savior, thus ultimately making God our savior through Jesus.
It's funny how Jodi Lee can hold to “two Saviors” but not two Gods. God said, “Besides me there is no Savior.” See Paul's statement above. Jesus Christ is our “God and Savior” and He is purifying for “HIMSELF” a people for “HIS OWN” possession.”Jodi Lee:
Quote Once again it was the plan and will of the Father that we have eternal life. Could God have made a different plan to bring us eternal life without Jesus, who is to say, but it is besides the point.
Wow! What confusion! Jodi Lee says that it is “besides the point” if God could have brought us eternal life without Jesus. Wow! The anti-christian mind set here never ceases to amaze me. The whole point is that without Jesus there could have been no salvation at all!The scripture says that Jesus is the “RADIANCE” of God's glory (Hebrews 1). So the idea that God could have possibly given us life without Jesus is like saying that the sun can give life without its radiance.
So here we go again with being put through Jodi Lee's double speak and confusion. She is saying that Jesus is our “ONLY” Savior and she is right. At the same time she denies that He is God who said, “Besides Me there is no Savior.”
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 21 2010,04:20) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 20 2010,09:51) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 20 2010,05:35) Marty said: Quote “AND THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD”
Marty,Moses no longer applies today. God is no longer the head of Christ as man is no longer the head of woman. At His Father's right hand Christ is EQUAL with His Father. Paul said that the Son “WILL BE ” subject to the Father (chap 15). If Christ “will be” (future) subject to the Father then He could not have been subject to the Father when Paul wrote.
Christ cannot be equal with God and subject to Him at the same time. God was the head of Christ under the Mosaic economy just as the man was the head of the woman under Moses. Christ is not under Moses today just as we are not under Moses today. This is because Moses has been done away.
Marty:
Quote There is “ONE” LORD who is over all including Jesus, and there is “ONE Lord” whom God has exalted to the position of head of the Church EXACTLY! There is ONE Lord “including Jesus.” So there is one God including Jesus. For God said, “I am ONE Lord.”
You're slowly gettin there Marty.
thinker
Hi thethinker:Who said anything about Moses? And who said Jesus was equal to the Father?
Read what I said over and over again and maybe you will get it. You are out of arguments. There is only “One God” and Jesus is God's only begotten Son and His Christ. Quite easy to understand.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,You totally avoided everything I said. WJ and I have pointed to Paul's statement a million times when he said that the Son “WILL BE” subject to the Father. Not once has any of you anti-christians attempted to deal with it.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will be also subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Answer this Marty! Christ could not have been subject to the Father at the time Paul said this. Otherwise the future “WILL BE subject” makes no sense at all. Note also that Paul said that the Son will be subject in order that God may be “all in all.” If God was “all in all” at that time then Paul's statement that He “may” be all in all makes no sense.
Christ was “all in all” at that time.
…where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Colossians 3:11
Marty:
Quote There is only “One God” and Jesus is God's only begotten Son and His Christ. Quite easy …looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:13
God said, “besides Me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11). Yet Paul said that Jesus Christ is called both God and Savior.
How could Paul say that Christ is the Savior when God said, “Besides Me there is NO Savior?”
Please explain how Paul could say that the Son “WILL BE” subject to the Father if He was still subject when Paul said that. Really, you need to re-think all of it for your view of Christ's exaltation amounts to no exaltation for Him at all.
MY VIEW: Christ was exalted from servant to Sovereign Lord.
Your view: Christ was exalted from servant to servant.
thinker
Hi thethinker:The scriptures state that God has spoken to humanity through Jesus, and so the Word of God which Jesus watches to perform has come from God, therefore, he is not doing His own will but that of the Father, as the head of the church.
And so, whatever he, as well as we who are born again believers, asks the Father to do in accordance with His will He will do it. The mission of the body of Christ is the salvation of God's children, and the body of Christ will also judge those who are not saved.
When the church has completed the mission that God has given us, then we will be subject to God. That is what the following scriptures are stating:
Quote 1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Cr 15:25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
1Cr 15:27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (thethinker @ Jan. 22 2010,12:14) Jodi Lee said: Quote Jesus is our savior ONLY because he followed in the Will and the plan of the Father. Yet God said, “Besides me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11). Either Christ is God or He is not our “only” Savior as Jodi Lee said.
Paul said,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for HIMSELF a people for HIS OWN possession, zealous for good works. Titus 2:13-14
Paul CLEARLY said that Jesus Christ is our “God and Savior” and that He is purifying for “HIMSELF” a people for “HIS OWN” possession.
Jodi Lee:
Quote In his suffering Jesus denied his will and followed the will of His Father. Jesus is our savior because God's will MADE him be our savior, thus ultimately making God our savior through Jesus.
It's funny how Jodi Lee can hold to “two Saviors” but not two Gods. God said, “Besides me there is no Savior.” See Paul's statement above. Jesus Christ is our “God and Savior” and He is purifying for “HIMSELF” a people for “HIS OWN” possession.”Jodi Lee:
Quote Once again it was the plan and will of the Father that we have eternal life. Could God have made a different plan to bring us eternal life without Jesus, who is to say, but it is besides the point.
Wow! What confusion! Jodi Lee says that it is “besides the point” if God could have brought us eternal life without Jesus. Wow! The anti-christian mind set here never ceases to amaze me. The whole point is that without Jesus there could have been no salvation at all!The scripture says that Jesus is the “RADIANCE” of God's glory (Hebrews 1). So the idea that God could have possibly given us life without Jesus is like saying that the sun can give life without its radiance.
So here we go again with being put through Jodi Lee's double speak and confusion. She is saying that Jesus is our “ONLY” Savior and she is right. At the same time she denies that He is God who said, “Besides Me there is no Savior.”
thinker
YHWH our Heavenly Father before time began MADE a plan to bring salvation through a MAN. Could He have MADE a different plan?….. possibly, who is to say? That is not what matters. What matters IS the PLAN that He did in fact lay out. That plan consisted of Him one day sending a man into the world that would be anointed with His Spirit and through that gift the man would remain holy, setting himself apart from the world of sin, not following the flesh but the will of the Father.Besides YHWH our Elohyim, our God who exists with Powers, there IS no one else. There is NO ONE else who can create a man and make a man righteous, and then have that man according to His will pay for the sins of others.
YHWH is ONE, and He ALONE exists with Powers, and through those powers CHRIST was MADE. In that CONTEXT there exists NO other Savior then He, there is no other person who creates men and makes him righteous so that he may have eternal life. There is NO other person out there that is a savior to man to the extent that YHWH is our Savior.
As Isaiah 43:11 states, NO there is NO one else who is a Savior as YHWH is a Savior. There is no one else who creates man and gives His righteous Spirit to man that man shall live.
There is NO confusion, there is ONE person who MADE Jesus our master and our Christ, and that was NOT Jesus but the God and Father of Jesus YHWH.
Because Jesus was MADE BY his GOD into a savior and a master to his brethren, that would not make him the One True God
The creature is NOT in the same league as his Creator!
Hi Jack
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 21 2010,20:14) Yet God said, “Besides me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11). Either Christ is God or He is not our “only” Savior as Jodi Lee said. Paul said,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for HIMSELF a people for HIS OWN possession, zealous for good works. Titus 2:13-14
Paul CLEARLY said that Jesus Christ is our “God and Savior” and that He is purifying for “HIMSELF” a people for “HIS OWN” possession.
Exactly! Paul was a highly trained Hebrew and knew the Hebrew scriptures.It is obvious the language that Paul uses of Jesus for those who can hear him is that Jesus is YHWH, the one that every knee shall bow to and confess that he is our “Only Master and Lord”.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Isa 45:22, 23
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Rom 14:11
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10, 11
For the Hebrew, if Jesus isn't God then that would be idolatry and blasphemy!
Thats exactly why Paul calls him his “Great God and Savour“! Phil 2:13
WJ
Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I gave Egypt for your ransom,
Ethiopia and Seba in your place.
4 Since you were precious in My sight,
You have been honored,
And I have loved you;
Therefore I will give men for you,
And people for your life.
5 Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your descendants from the east,
And gather you from the west;
6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’
Bring My sons from afar,
And My daughters from the ends of the earth—
7 Everyone who is called by My name,
Whom I have created for My glory;
I have formed him, yes, I have made him.”
8 Bring out the blind people who have eyes,
And the deaf who have ears.
9 Let all the nations be gathered together,
And let the people be assembled.
Who among them can declare this,
And show us former things?
Let them bring out their witnesses, that they maybe
justified;Or let them hear and say, “It is truth.”
10 “ You are My witnesses,” says the LORD,“ And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior.
12 I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the LORD, “that I am God.
13 Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”
14 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:Acts 5:31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 13:23 From this man’s seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior—Jesus—
Acts 2:36“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
BESIDES the God of Jesus who MADE Jesus our Christ and our Master, truly there is NO other God besides Him, and truly there is NO Savior who is our Savior as He is, bringing Jesus to die on the cross for us.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2010,17:05) Hi Jack Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 21 2010,20:14) Yet God said, “Besides me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11). Either Christ is God or He is not our “only” Savior as Jodi Lee said. Paul said,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for HIMSELF a people for HIS OWN possession, zealous for good works. Titus 2:13-14
Paul CLEARLY said that Jesus Christ is our “God and Savior” and that He is purifying for “HIMSELF” a people for “HIS OWN” possession.
Exactly! Paul was a highly trained Hebrew and knew the Hebrew scriptures.It is obvious the language that Paul uses of Jesus for those who can hear him is that Jesus is YHWH, the one that every knee shall bow to and confess that he is our “Only Master and Lord”.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Isa 45:22, 23
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Rom 14:11
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10, 11
For the Hebrew, if Jesus isn't God then that would be idolatry and blasphemy!
Thats exactly why Paul calls him his “Great God and Savour“! Phil 2:13
WJ
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10, 11EVERY tongue should CONFESS that Jesus the anointed MAN with the Holy Spirit is our master to the GLORY of the FATHER.
We bow to Jesus, not in manner that he is the one true God but in the manner that he is the MAN who followed the Will of the Father, dying for us, and was MADE to the GLORY of the FATHER into our Christ and master.
Jesus is the MAN who has been APPOINTED master over all other men, and with that authority his purpose is to fulfill not his own will but that of his God's.
Marty
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 21 2010,20:47) When the church has completed the mission that God has given us, then we will be subject to God. That is what the following scriptures are stating:
Huh? So the we are not subject to God now?
Look again Marty, those scriptures do not mention the Church.
“For he (Jesus) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet“. The last enemy that shall be destroyed [s death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Jesus)“, **THEN** shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:25-28
Jesus alone will recieve the glory for subjecting all things to himself and all enemys are put under his feet, and then he will subject himself to the Father that God may be all in all, in other words there will no longer be a need for a Savour because the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit will be all in all!
WJ
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Jan. 22 2010,01:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2010,17:05) Hi Jack Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 21 2010,20:14) Yet God said, “Besides me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11). Either Christ is God or He is not our “only” Savior as Jodi Lee said. Paul said,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for HIMSELF a people for HIS OWN possession, zealous for good works. Titus 2:13-14
Paul CLEARLY said that Jesus Christ is our “God and Savior” and that He is purifying for “HIMSELF” a people for “HIS OWN” possession.
Exactly! Paul was a highly trained Hebrew and knew the Hebrew scriptures.It is obvious the language that Paul uses of Jesus for those who can hear him is that Jesus is YHWH, the one that every knee shall bow to and confess that he is our “Only Master and Lord”.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Isa 45:22, 23
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Rom 14:11
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10, 11
For the Hebrew, if Jesus isn't God then that would be idolatry and blasphemy!
Thats exactly why Paul calls him his “Great God and Savour“! Phil 2:13
WJ
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10, 11EVERY tongue should CONFESS that Jesus the anointed MAN with the Holy Spirit is our master to the GLORY of the FATHER.
We bow to Jesus, not in manner that he is the one true God but in the manner that he is the MAN who followed the Will of the Father, dying for us, and was MADE to the GLORY of the FATHER into our Christ and master.
Jesus is the MAN who has been APPOINTED master over all other men, and with that authority his purpose is to fulfill not his own will but that of his God's.
JodiBut that doesn't explain Pauls use of the Hebrew scriptures that claim YHWH “Alone” By himself” shall recieve the honour of every knee bowing to him and “NONE ELSE”!
HE SWORE AN OATH **BY HIMSELF** THAT EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO HIM!
Also it doesn't explain that the Hebrew scriptures claim there is only “One Savour” and none else!
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; “a just God and a SAVIOUR; **THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME**. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: “FOR I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE. ***I HAVE SWORN BY MYSELF***, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, “That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear”. Isa 45:22, 23
Yet the Apostles say look unto Jesus the Great God and Savour. Titus 2:13
They explicitly call Jesus their personal Savour!
YHWH says…
- A just God and a SAVIOUR; **THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME**
- FOR I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE. ***I HAVE SWORN BY MYSELF***
- THAT **UNTO ME** EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR
Paul knew this, and so do those who have ears to hear IMO.
Blessings WJ
How pathetic it is the same N.T scriptures are used to prove divinity of Jesus as well as to disprove bcause they are so ambigous. So whom to be blamed my friends?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2010,17:05) Thats exactly why Paul calls him his “Great God and Savour”! Phil 2:13
Your interpretation of this verse must mean in your understanding that Paul is double-minded because Paul clearly states that there is one God the Father who is over all and through all.Your interpretation also must lead to the conclusion that the one who said “that the Father is the one true God and that God sent Jesus.” is wrong. That man was John.
Your interpretation also goes against a book that says no man shall add or take away from the words of that prophecy. That book is called The Apocalypse/Revelation. It states that the revelation of Jesus Christ, was given to him by God to show his servants what must soon take place.
So WJ, perhaps that clears up why you are not gaining followers in your argument that Jesus is the Almighty God and that this God who is a HIM is actually 3 people.
It really boils down to you competing with the biblical writers as to who God is and who Jesus is. I think it is safe to say that many would rather believe what Paul and John said and taught, than believe your interpretation of Phil 2:13 and by doing so, having to throw away much scripture as it contradicts it.
Either you are right, the biblical writers are, or none are. Logically speaking that is the reality of choices you offer us.
Quote (gollamudi @ Jan. 22 2010,19:07) How pathetic it is the same N.T scriptures are used to prove divinity of Jesus as well as to disprove bcause they are so ambigous. So whom to be blamed my friends?
Hi Adam,Notice how all who claim 'i am' to be the their god are in constant state of war against each other?
That is because 'i am'=23 is the false god of religion! The 'Fake'=23 god is Lucifer known as satan!The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.2Thess.2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above (Isaiah 14:12-17) all that is “called God”=63(YHVH=63),
or that is worshipped; so that he(Lucifer) as (i am)God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.Glad you can see the futility in their battle!
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybibleecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2010,17:45) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Jan. 22 2010,01:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2010,17:05) Hi Jack Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 21 2010,20:14) Yet God said, “Besides me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11). Either Christ is God or He is not our “only” Savior as Jodi Lee said. Paul said,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for HIMSELF a people for HIS OWN possession, zealous for good works. Titus 2:13-14
Paul CLEARLY said that Jesus Christ is our “God and Savior” and that He is purifying for “HIMSELF” a people for “HIS OWN” possession.
Exactly! Paul was a highly trained Hebrew and knew the Hebrew scriptures.It is obvious the language that Paul uses of Jesus for those who can hear him is that Jesus is YHWH, the one that every knee shall bow to and confess that he is our “Only Master and Lord”.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Isa 45:22, 23
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Rom 14:11
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10, 11
For the Hebrew, if Jesus isn't God then that would be idolatry and blasphemy!
Thats exactly why Paul calls him his “Great God and Savour“! Phil 2:13
WJ
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10, 11EVERY tongue should CONFESS that Jesus the anointed MAN with the Holy Spirit is our master to the GLORY of the FATHER.
We bow to Jesus, not in manner that he is the one true God but in the manner that he is the MAN who followed the Will of the Father, dying for us, and was MADE to the GLORY of the FATHER into our Christ and master.
Jesus is the MAN who has been APPOINTED master over all other men, and with that authority his purpose is to fulfill not his own will but that of his God's.
JodiBut that doesn't explain Pauls use of the Hebrew scriptures that claim YHWH “Alone” By himself” shall recieve the honour of every knee bowing to him and “NONE ELSE”!
HE SWORE AN OATH **BY HIMSELF** THAT EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO HIM!
Also it doesn't explain that the Hebrew scriptures claim there is only “One Savour” and none else!
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; “a just God and a SAVIOUR; **THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME**. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: “FOR I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE. ***I HAVE SWORN BY MYSELF***, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, “That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear”. Isa 45:22, 23
Yet the Apostles say look unto Jesus the Great God and Savour. Titus 2:13
They explicitly call Jesus their personal Savour!
YHWH says…
- A just God and a SAVIOUR; **THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME**
- FOR I AM GOD, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE. ***I HAVE SWORN BY MYSELF***
- THAT **UNTO ME** EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR
Paul knew this, and so do those who have ears to hear IMO.
Blessings WJ
WJ,What Paul NEW was that the One True God the Father promised before time began eternal life and that this eternal life would one day come through Him sending the MAN Jesus of whom He would anoint with His Spirit. What Paul new is that the Father YHWH revealed unto Israel that this person whom He would raise up as savior would be of the seed of David.
Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.”
Acts 2:31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Acts 13:22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.' 23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–
Jesus is MADE a savior by the One True God. The work that the Father accomplished in Jesus, brought the words of which He spoke unto Israel to be true, for by His will and His planning in taking a MAN keeping him Holy through His Spirit, and then having him pay for our sins on the cross, TRULY MAKES YHWH's words that besides Him there is no other savior ring true.
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.
WJ, is there ANYONE else who can save Israel and do so through sending a man? The Spirit that was given to Jesus that caused Jesus to be our savior was that of the Father. Do
es that MEAN anything to you WJ? The MAN Jesus is what the God of Israel USED to save them, it was the way in which He chose to KEEP His word that He had given them.We should NOT forget WHY it is and HOW it is that Jesus is our savior. When YHWH declares besides Me there is NO savior should we just FORGET how exactly that speaks it's truth? Your narrow minded thinking WJ causes you to disregard the substance of scripture IMO.
Numbers 21:8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.“
John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
As the people betrayed God and worshiped the the brass object of which YHWH had MADE for them to save them, You also WJ are defiling the One True God, making that which He created as your One True God.
Isaiah 45:22 “Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. 24 He shall say, 'Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him. 25 In the Lord all the descendants of Israel Shall be justified, and shall glory.' “
1 John 4:13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
When we bow and confess that Jesus is our master, we are doing so to the Glory of the One True God the Father, as scripture says.
WJ, you don't seem to understand what that means “to the Glory of God the Father”.
At the NAME of Jesus our knees should bow confessing that Jesus the anointed is our master TO the glory of God the Father.
We bow to Jesus for we believe that he is in fact the MAN of the Father's PROMISE. When we bow to Jesus we RECOGNIZE that he is the MAN of through whom the Father saved His people. We bow to Jesus to GIVE the Father His rightful glory for we recognize that the Father is able to fulfill His promises.
We confess that Jesus is indeed the man of God's promise, we are NOT confessing that Jesus is himself the One True God. We are to confess that Jesus is in fact the man YHWH said He would send. When we bow to Jesus it is in recognizing that he is the fulfillment of Will and Plan of the One True God the Father……IT IS ALL TO THE GLORY of the FATHER
You IMO WJ have turned God's GLORY into shame, you worship the creature of whom the Creator made for us, as the Creator. You and Thinker need to turn from your idolatry.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live
It is truly amazing how even with clear cut scripture you still have no clue as to WHO Jesus is and who he is not.
You do not believe in his NAME and his anointing, you believe in complete false worship IMO.
Hi Jodi
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Jan. 22 2010,10:57)
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.WJ, is there ANYONE else who can save Israel and do so through sending a man?
I just believe the scripture you quote just as it is written!Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord, And “***BESIDES ME*** there is NO savior“.
Jesus is not “a Savour” by proxy, Jesus is “The Savour”!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2010,03:42) Hi Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ Jan. 22 2010,10:57)
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.WJ, is there ANYONE else who can save Israel and do so through sending a man?
I just believe the scripture you quote just as it is written!Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord, And “***BESIDES ME*** there is NO savior“.
Jesus is not “a Savour” by proxy, Jesus is “The Savour”!
WJ
Keith,Right on brother! The apostle John said that Jesus HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins:
And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
This is clear! Jesus is no Savior by proxy. He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins.
Hebrews says that Jesus is the SOURCE of eternal salvation:
And being made perfect, he became the SOURCE of eternal salvation to all who obey him, Hebrews 5:9, ESV
1. He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins
2. He is the SOURCE of eternal salvationIt appears as if God was a bit confused when He said, “Besides Me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11).
Jodi Lee is deep in the quagmire of confusion!
thinker
WJ………Brother you are so wrong, Jodi has explained it perfectly right. You and thnker are both committing IDOLATRY by trying to make Jesus into Very GOD. What Jesus does and did is and will always be to the GLORY of THE FATHER, Who is the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD.
WJ if you harden your heart to these truths it will have a dire consequence to you brother please repent and worship GOD The FATHER as The ONLY TRUE GOD, and NO other, not even Jesus is His equal.peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 23 2010,04:25) WJ………Brother you are so wrong, Jodi has explained it perfectly right. You and thnker are both committing IDOLATRY by trying to make Jesus into Very GOD. What Jesus does and did is and will always be to the GLORY of THE FATHER, Who is the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD.
WJ if you harden your heart to these truths it will have a dire consequence to you brother please repent and worship GOD The FATHER as The ONLY TRUE GOD, and NO other, not even Jesus is His equal.peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Gene,The apostle John said that Jesus HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins:
And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
This is clear! Jesus is no Savior by proxy. He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins.
Hebrews says that Jesus is the SOURCE of eternal salvation:
And being made perfect, he became the SOURCE of eternal salvation to all who obey him, Hebrews 5:9, ESV
1. He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins
2. He is the SOURCE of eternal salvationIt appears as if God was a bit confused when He said, “Besides Me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11).
What's your beef Gene?
thinker
thinker…….I doubt if anyone here is more confused as you, on this Subject. Your squirrelly images only are refelcting how your own mind works, because you can't prove Jodi or any other NON TRINITARIANS intelligently wrong, so you revert to stupid images that are produced by the real spirit within you. IMO
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 22 2010,12:25) WJ………Brother you are so wrong, Jodi has explained it perfectly right. You and thnker are both committing IDOLATRY by trying to make Jesus into Very GOD. What Jesus does and did is and will always be to the GLORY of THE FATHER, Who is the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD.
WJ if you harden your heart to these truths it will have a dire consequence to you brother please repent and worship GOD The FATHER as The ONLY TRUE GOD, and NO other, not even Jesus is His equal.peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
GeneWhy do you accuse me of a hard heart and idolatry?
Jesus said judge not that you be not judged!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 23 2010,04:33) Quote (Gene @ Jan. 23 2010,04:25) WJ………Brother you are so wrong, Jodi has explained it perfectly right. You and thnker are both committing IDOLATRY by trying to make Jesus into Very GOD. What Jesus does and did is and will always be to the GLORY of THE FATHER, Who is the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD.
WJ if you harden your heart to these truths it will have a dire consequence to you brother please repent and worship GOD The FATHER as The ONLY TRUE GOD, and NO other, not even Jesus is His equal.peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Gene,The apostle John said that Jesus HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins:
And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
This is clear! Jesus is no Savior by proxy. He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins.
Hebrews says that Jesus is the SOURCE of eternal salvation:
And being made perfect, he became the SOURCE of eternal salvation to all who obey him, Hebrews 5:9, ESV
1. He HIMSELF is the propitiation for our sins
2. He is the SOURCE of eternal salvationIt appears as if God was a bit confused when He said, “Besides Me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11).
What's your beef Gene?
thinker
Thinker………You say Jesus is not our Savior by Proxy is sear non sense. He most certainly is our savior by Proxy. GOD used him for the very purpose, It was GOD (IN) Christ Jesus that was reconciling the world unto (HIMSELF). It was (NOT) Jesus (IN) Jesus that was reconciling the world to Jesus. God used the MAN Jesus to RECONCILE The world to HIMSELF (GOD).Jesus is the propitiation for our sins because GOD THE FATHER HAS (EXCEPTED) HIS SACRIFICE as FULL PAYMENT FOR EVER, FOR the SINS of THE WORLD. SO the Sacrifice is a Propitiating ONE. He is what GOD the FATHER used as the PAYMENT> for sin. Taht does not make Jesus the GOD who accepted that payment as you deluded Trinitarians preach and teach. IMO
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