The arian dissenters

Participant

Gene said:

Quote

Thinker , Jesus is my brother who OUR (His and MINE) FATHER placed over our Family,

So you can say that He is your brother who is OVER you but you can't come right out and say that He is your Lord? Say that He is Lord “to the glory of God the Father.” If you cannot say that Jesus is your Lord then God is not your Father.

thinker

January 8, 2010 at 10:22 pm#169273

GeneBalthrop

Participant

thinker……..When did i not say Jesus is not my Lord, there you go jumping off again, with out any proof of me saying such a thing, Jesus is Lord over all (TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER). I whole heartily believe that. Please don't take the word Lord and say that means He is a GOD thing again. Pure HOG WASH. King David Said “the LORD said unto MY Lord sit at my right hand until, (I) make your enemies your foot stool. So it even appears that when Jesus comes it still is going to be GOD the FATHER who will makes Jesus' enemies His foot stool. IMO

January 8, 2010 at 10:53 pm#169280

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 09 2010,09:22)

Gene,
You are quoting the Psalm out of context. In verse 5 David acknowledged that it was God at YHWH's right hand

“The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.”

Our English translations hide the fact that the word “Lord” in verses 1 & 5 are not the same Hebrew word. The word “Lord” in verse 5 is the Hebrew “Adonai” which is the proper name for God. David said, “God is at your right hand.”

Hebrews 1:8 concurs:

“But to the Son He says:

“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

So in Psalm 110:5 David says Messiah is “Adonai” (God) at YHWH's right hand. Then in Hebrews 1:8 the Father addresses the Son saying, “Thy throne O God“

Read it and repent Gene!

thinker

January 8, 2010 at 11:29 pm#169293

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2010,05:29)

Jack

I see what you mean. I have heard t8 say he worships Jesus but not as God!

I don't want to be a judge and say that they don't worship, but I will say it seems like a lot of lip service going on when they talk about Jesus as being Lord.

I am reminded of the words “They honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me”!

If they cannot even confess Jesus is their Only Master and Lord then it makes me wonder.

“So I want you to know how to discern what is truly from God“: No one speaking by the Spirit of God can curse Jesus, and no one is able to say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3

There is more to this verse than what meets the eye!

If this verse simply means calling Jesus Lord, then it doesn't make sense because Jesus said many will call him Lord, Lord in that day and he will tell them I never knew you or to paraphrase, had a relationship with you!

I think the verse has to do with “identity” and knowing who Jesus is…

So I want you to know how to discern what is truly from God: No one speaking by the Spirit of God can curse Jesus, and “no one is able to say, “Jesus is Lord (Jehovah),” except by the Holy Spirit.“ 1 Cor 12:3

Only those speaking by the Holy Spirit can confess that Jesus is YHWH Jehovah God, our “Only Master and Lord”, the one that saved his poeple out of Egypt! Jude 1:4, 5

Jesus is the head appointed by God. (The head of the man is Christ and the head of Christ is God). He is the lord and Christ appointed by God. He laid down his life and for this he is the lamb of God. Why would I not honour him? God appointed him, and to dishonour the son is to dishonour God.

I just do not honour Jesus as God but as what was confessed by Peter, taught by Paul, said by Jesus himself.

January 8, 2010 at 11:33 pm#169295

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 09 2010,01:54)

t8,

You say “in the same sense” we are one with the Father?

Hmmmmmm….. Jesus said that He was one with the Father in saving and guarding the sheep:

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.

You might want to re-think your inference that we are one with the Father in the same sense as Jesus. For in its immediate context it is CLEAR that Jesus was saying that the He and the Father are one in saving and guarding the sheep.

Let yourself be guided by context. John 17 is about unity of purpose while John 10 is about the Father and the Son's unity both in purpose and IN POWER.

Again, you might want to re-think your conclusion.

thinker

Whatever argument you make here is really made to Jesus or John. It was John who recorded that Jesus said he was one with the Father and that we could be one with them.

I just take these words for what they are.

One is obviously unity, just as a man and woman can be one. But Jesus included us. We can be one with God. We can be in unity with each other, Jesus, and God.

No special trinity verse here.

January 8, 2010 at 11:35 pm#169297

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 09 2010,02:34)

This is feeble man! The One who sits upon the throne and the Lamb are worshiped not for who they are but for the works they have done.

Then you have answered the question regarding both being worshipped as God. They are not, one is identified as God and another as the lamb, and they are honoured for what they have done.

Pretty simple isn't it.

No trinity here.

January 8, 2010 at 11:40 pm#169299

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2010,02:40)

I do not see any scriptures that say….

Let not your heart be troubled: “ye believe in God, believe also in me (t8)“. John 14:1

I do not see any scriptures that say….

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and “purify **unto himself** (t8) a peculiar people“, zealous of good works. Tit 2:14

Do you see any scripture saying that men are to call us their “Only Master and Lord”?

Jesus Oneness with the Father is not the same as our unity in them unless you can say that you are…

….”the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being“, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3

Can you say that you have life in yourself just as the Father has life in himself?

Can you say that you are “The Life”? John 14:6

So your point is moot.

Nevertheless, Jesus said we can be one with them, just as he said he was one with the Father. God was in Christ redeeming the world to himself and God can be in us too.

Sure Jesus is the exact representation of God's being, and therefore is the full radiance and expression of the invisible God.

But just as God is in Christ, so can God be in us.

It is just that God in Christ reveals the fullness of God and God in me reveals a very small part of God.

No trinity here WJ. That is the point. Saying that Jesus is one with God doesn't make Jesus God. It makes him in unity with God. And it certainly goes without saying that when you are one with someone, that you are not that person or being who you are one with.

January 8, 2010 at 11:45 pm#169302

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 08 2010,18:29)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2010,05:29)

Jack

I see what you mean. I have heard t8 say he worships Jesus but not as God!

I don't want to be a judge and say that they don't worship, but I will say it seems like a lot of lip service going on when they talk about Jesus as being Lord.

I am reminded of the words “They honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me”!

If they cannot even confess Jesus is their Only Master and Lord then it makes me wonder.

There is more to this verse than what meets the eye!

I think the verse has to do with “identity” and knowing who Jesus is…

Only those speaking by the Holy Spirit can confess that Jesus is YHWH Jehovah God, our “Only Master and Lord”, and the one that saved his people out of Egypt! Jude 1:4, 5

I just do not honour Jesus as God but as what was confessed by Peter, taught by Paul, said by Jesus himself.

As usual you always appeal to his post incarnate state as “Servant”. Phil 2″6-8

What was he before then t8? Where is he now? Was he not the Lord that came down from heaven and is now “Lord of Lords and King of Kings”?

We will have to disagree.

There is no amount of honor that you place on the Father that you should not place on Jesus. Revelation reveals this!

Jesus said we are to honor him “even as we honor the Father”.

Jesus statement has no limit to the amount of honor you give to him unless you believe there is a limit to the honor you give the Father.

So you draw the line at not honoring him as God, but I believe that doing that means you are limiting honor to him when he said “Even as” speaking of his equality with the Father, and therefore you are not giving him the same honor as the Father! IMO!

January 8, 2010 at 11:50 pm#169303

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 09 2010,09:53)

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 09 2010,09:22)

Gene,
You are quoting the Psalm out of context. In verse 5 David acknowledged that it was God at YHWH's right hand

“The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.”

Hebrews 1:8 concurs:

“But to the Son He says:

“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

So in Psalm 110:5 David says Messiah is “Adonai” (God) at YHWH's right hand. Then in Hebrews 1:8 the Father addresses the Son saying, “Thy throne O God“

Read it and repent Gene!

thinker

Thinker…..Thy throne O GOD is an everlasting Thorne Makes sense when you realize it is GOD'S Seven SPIRITS (IN) Jesus with Power that is going to establish that Kingdom. And in the end God receives it to HIMSELF. GOD is and WAS working (THROUGH) Jesus and that does not stop until the Kingdom is turned back to the FATHER. Jesus and the Saints will be using GOD'S Spirit to bring the Kingdom of God into the world and establish it for ever. Thinking that makes Jesus equal to GOD is nonsense. We are to honor Jesus to the glory of GOD the FATHER, That is the proper way to Honor Jesus and the FATHER both. IMO

January 8, 2010 at 11:51 pm#169305

Participant

t8 said:

Quote

I just do not honour Jesus as God but as what was confessed by Peter, taught by Paul, said by Jesus himself.

The Father honored His Son as God by calling Him God:

But to the Son He says:

“”Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.”

You should re-think the matter.

thinker

January 8, 2010 at 11:51 pm#169306

NickHassan

Participant

Hi TT,
So God honored His Son.
Why did you think the Son was that God again?

January 8, 2010 at 11:55 pm#169307

Participant

Gene said:

Quote

Thinker…..Thy throne O GOD is an everlasting Thorne Makes sense when you realize it is GOD'S Seven SPIRITS (IN) Jesus….

Gene's version: To the seven spirits He says, “Your throne O God….”

The Father's version: To the Son He says, “Your throne O God….”

thinker

January 8, 2010 at 11:57 pm#169308

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 08 2010,18:40)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2010,02:40)

I do not see any scriptures that say….

Let not your heart be troubled: “ye believe in God, believe also in me (t8)“. John 14:1

I do not see any scriptures that say….

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and “purify **unto himself** (t8) a peculiar people“, zealous of good works. Tit 2:14

Do you see any scripture saying that men are to call us their “Only Master and Lord”?

Jesus Oneness with the Father is not the same as our unity in them unless you can say that you are…

Can you say that you have life in yourself just as the Father has life in himself?

Can you say that you are “The Life”? John 14:6

So your point is moot.

Nevertheless, Jesus said we can be one with them, just as he said he was one with the Father. God was in Christ redeeming the world to himself and God can be in us too.

Sure Jesus is the exact representation of God's being, and therefore is the full radiance and expression of the invisible God.

But just as God is in Christ, so can God be in us.

It is just that God in Christ reveals the fullness of God and God in me reveals a very small part of God.

If all things are by him and through him and for him, then he is God!

John 1:1-3, Rom 11:36, 1 Cor 8:6,

Jesus is self-existent t8! And at this time is not yet subject to the Father. 1 Cor 15

By him all things consist. Col 1:17, and all things are upheld by the word of his power, Heb 1:3

He is our Great God and Savour, (2 Peter 1:1, Titus 2:13) and our “Only Master and Lord”, Jude 1:4, 5!

January 9, 2010 at 12:08 am#169315

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 08 2010,18:40)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 09 2010,02:40)

I do not see any scriptures that say….

Let not your heart be troubled: “ye believe in God, believe also in me (t8)“. John 14:1

I do not see any scriptures that say….

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and “purify **unto himself** (t8) a peculiar people“, zealous of good works. Tit 2:14

Do you see any scripture saying that men are to call us their “Only Master and Lord”?

Jesus Oneness with the Father is not the same as our unity in them unless you can say that you are…

Can you say that you have life in yourself just as the Father has life in himself?

Can you say that you are “The Life”? John 14:6

So your point is moot.

Nevertheless, Jesus said we can be one with them, just as he said he was one with the Father. God was in Christ redeeming the world to himself and God can be in us too.

Sure Jesus is the exact representation of God's being, and therefore is the full radiance and expression of the invisible God.

But just as God is in Christ, so can God be in us.

It is just that God in Christ reveals the fullness of God and God in me reveals a very small part of God.

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 08 2010,18:40)

No trinity here WJ. That is the point. Saying that Jesus is one with God doesn't make Jesus God.

Saying that Jesus is one with God doesn't mean he is not God either.

John wrote John 1:1 and John 17:3 and those who do not believe Jesus is God makes John into an idiot for using the Word “Theos” in refering to the Word that was with God and was God!

January 9, 2010 at 12:17 am#169316

GeneBalthrop

Participant

WJ……John 1:1 has not mention of the word Jesus there, so who gave anyone the right to change it . That is altering and forcing the text, It make perfect sense to me just like it is. So who's Idea was it to change it to mean Jesus, was John so dense He could not have written Jesus there if that is what he was trying to say. You see even simple common reason should have told you that. Forcing the text and trying to make it fit you TRINITARIAN Theology is Just another distortion of scriptures. It only work for the blind. IMO

January 9, 2010 at 12:20 am#169318

Participant

t8 said:

Quote

Then you have answered the question regarding both being worshipped as God. They are not, one is identified as God and another as the lamb, and they are honoured for what they have done.

Both are being worshiped for their work as Savior and God ALONE is the Savior.

thinker

January 9, 2010 at 12:28 am#169319

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Jan. 08 2010,19:17)

Gene

Who is changing it? The Word became flesh and was given the name Jesus for he shall save “His people” from their sins.

John had no reason in calling him Jesus until he took on the likeness of sinful flesh in following with the Story that the Angel gave the name!

But he did call him the “Word” which is true to his vision in Rev 1:13 that he saw before he penned John 1:1 amd 1 John 1:1-3.

You have shut your eyes to this truth and say the Father became flesh!

Anathema!

January 9, 2010 at 12:42 am#169321

Participant

t8 said;

Quote

Jesus is the head appointed by God. (The head of the man is Christ and the head of Christ is God).

Paul was speaking about an old covenant principle which no longer applies today. Under Moses the man was the head of the woman and God was the head of the Christ. Paul went on to say that “in the Lord” the man and the woman are EQUAL (vss. 11-12). So God and the Christ are now equal:

Now WHEN all things are made subject to Him, THEN the Son Himself also WILL BE subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.1 Corinthians 15:28

Note the key time indicators when, then & will be. It clearly says that WHEN all things are made subject to the Son THEN the Son WILL BE subject to the Father. Therefore, Jesus was not subject to the Father when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians.

Check it out.

thinker

January 9, 2010 at 12:49 am#169323

942767

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 08 2010,17:50)

Marty

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 07 2010,21:45)

The Spirit of our Father, is not a “third person of some tri-une God”

.
How about the Spirit of the Son, is he the personal Spirit of the Father?

How about the Spirit that takes from Jesus and gives to us, or the one that Jesus calls “another” that Jesus sent, or the one who only speaks what he hears, is that the personal Spirit of the Father?

Even so your statement is false when you say the Spirit is not a person or just Gods presence!

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

Paul disagrees with you doesn't he Marty?

But what does this have to do with Jesus being “self-existent”.

The name Jehovah means “The self existent one”.

Jesus name means “YHWH is salvation”.

And Jesus is given the name “Immanuel” which means “God with us” And Isaiah prophesied that he would be called “The mighty God (el gibbowr) and John said he is the Word that was with God and was God and Thomas called him his Lord and God and Paul called him his “Great God and Savour” and Peter called him his God and Savour and Jude said he was his “Only Master and Lord” and that he was the Lord that saved the children of Israel out of Egypt!

Now take that into consideration with the fact that Jesus has the Title “Lord of Lords and King of Kings” and that he is the “Alpha and Omega” and that he has all Authority and Power and that he at this time is not subject to the Father, (1 Cor 15) and that he is sitting in the throne with the Father recieving the same praise as the Father and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Jesus is God in the flesh, One with the Father and the Holy Spirit!

Hi WJ;

The spirit of the Son is the Word of God that God spoke to humanity through him and that he obeyed without sin even unto death on the cross.

And it is this Word, the written Word, that Jesus watches over to perform in his exalted state as head of the church. It is this Word that was with the Father in the beginning and is God. Through the life that Jesus lived in obedience to God our Father we have seen God's character manifested through his life.

The Spirit of God our Father leads us into all truths in the written Word. Jesus prays in John 17 to our Father saying, sanctify them through thy truth, thy Word is truth”.

It is through this spirit, the spirit of the Son, that we are one with the Son and the Father.

2 John 1:9 states:

Code Sample

[Color R] Whosoever transgresseth,and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son

Quote

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away : and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing . 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered ; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned . 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will , and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified , that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's

Love in Christ,
Marty

January 9, 2010 at 1:09 am#169325