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Hi Mercy,
You said
“No man hath seen God at any time;”
And that means to you that when men have thought they saw God they must have seen Jesus?
Why?Quote Hi Mercy,
You said
“No man hath seen God at any time;”
And that means to you that when men have thought they saw God they must have seen Jesus?
Why?Perhaps, its the rest of that verse, that explains why he believes that:
JOHN 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.”It has not been necessary for the great Creator of the universe to come down from his lofty place in the heavens in order to deliver messages to certain humans. Aside from the three recorded instances when God’s own voice was heard while his Son was on the earth, Jehovah has always used angels to transmit His messages. (Matthew 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28) Even the Law that God gave to the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai was transmitted by angels, although Moses was represented as talking directly with God himself. Regarding this, the apostle Paul wrote: “Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.”—Galatians 3:19.
That Moses actually spoke with an angel who was personally representing God is also indicated at Acts 7:38, which states: “This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers.” That angel was the personal spokesman for Jehovah God, the Creator, and so he spoke to Moses as if God himself were speaking.
The angel who delivered God’s message to Moses at the burning thornbush was also a spokesman. He is identified as Jehovah’s angel at Exodus 3:2, where we are told: “Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush.” Verse 4 says: “When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush.” In verse 6, this angelic spokesman for God said: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” So when speaking with this personal representative of God, Moses spoke as if he were speaking to Jehovah himself.—Exodus 4:10.
In the 6th chapter of Judges, we find another example of a man speaking to God through an angelic representative. Verse 11 identifies the message bearer as “Jehovah’s angel.” There we read: “Later Jehovah’s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian.” This messenger, “Jehovah’s angel,” is thereafter represented as if he were Jehovah God himself. In verses 14 and 15, we read: “Upon that Jehovah faced [Gideon] and said: ‘Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian’s palm. Do I not send you?’ In turn he said to him: ‘Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel?’” So the materialized angel seen by Gideon and with whom he spoke is represented in the Biblical account as if he were God himself. In verse 22, Gideon says: “I have seen Jehovah’s angel face to face!” The angel spoke precisely what God told him to speak. Therefore, Gideon spoke with God through this angelic spokesman.
Consider, too, the case of Manoah and his wife, the parents of Samson. This account also speaks of the angelic messenger as “Jehovah’s angel” and “the angel of the true God.” (Judges 13:2-18) In verse 22, Manoah says to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.” Although he did not actually see Jehovah God, Manoah felt that way because he had seen the materialized personal spokesman for God.
“No Man Has Seen God”
Now it is possible to understand why Abraham addressed the materialized angelic spokesman of God as if he were talking to Jehovah God himself. Since this angel spoke precisely what God wanted to have said to Abraham and was there personally representing Him, the Biblical record could say that “Jehovah appeared to him.”—Genesis 18:1.
Remember that an angelic spokesman for God could transmit His messages just as precisely as a telephone or a radio can transmit our words to another person. Hence, it can be understood how Abraham, Moses, Manoah, and others could speak with a materialized angel as if they were talking to God. While such individuals were able to see these angels and the glory of Jehovah reflected by them, they were not able to see God. Therefore, this in no way contradicts the apostle John’s statement: “No man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18) What these men saw were angelic representatives and not God himself.
Hi Mercy.
Quote (Mercy @ Sep. 30 2006,03:09) - He was the firstborn unique son of God. (out of all the others)
- He is the fullness and radiance of God's image and glory.
- He had authority as Prince of Princes.
- He was the word of the Lord (OT) and the word of God (NT)
- He was the messenger of both covenants.
- He revealed the invisible God in both the new and old testaments.
- In the New testament he incarnates as our Messiah.
- He is now the King of Kings with superior name exalted above his fellows.
That's pretty much how I see it too.1 Corinthians 10:4
and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.Hi,
Some see in scripture that Jesus must be an angel, the angel of the Lord. Heb 1-2 makes plain he is not any form of angel in my view.Hi t8,
You quote
“1 Corinthians 10:4
and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. “So the physical event is described in Numbers 20
” 2And there was no water for the congregation: and they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron.3And the people chode with Moses, and spake, saying, Would God that we had died when our brethren died before the LORD!
4And why have ye brought up the congregation of the LORD into this wilderness, that we and our cattle should die there?
5And wherefore have ye made us to come up out of Egypt, to bring us in unto this evil place? it is no place of seed, or of figs, or of vines, or of pomegranates; neither is there any water to drink.
6And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them.
7And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
8Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
9And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him.
10And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?
11And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.
12And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
13This is the water of Meribah; because the children of Israel strove with the LORD, and he was sanctified in them.”
God supplied their needs according to their requests.
But 1Cor 10 refers to a spiritual event. There was no being called Christ shown with the jews in the desert. So the Spirit was with Moses and the Israelites and that Spirit is called here prophetically the Spirit of Christ. That Spirit had yet to be poured into Christ so it is a prophetic word. Christ was a being with God so had life in himself, but it was not himself but the Spirit of God spoken of here.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2006,05:14) Hi,
Some see in scripture that Jesus must be an angel, the angel of the Lord. Heb 1-2 makes plain he is not any form of angel in my view.
But he is a messenger.t8 According to other scriptures the Son of God was not an Angel. He was created before everybody else. He is the first born of all creation. The Father gave the Son the power to create all. By the power of the Father. Of course this would have to go under the preexisting tread. There are several Scriptures given there. So I have to agree with Nick here.
Peace and Love Mrs.
I agree that he is not an angel in the Cherub or Seraph sense, but he is a messenger, just as John B was.
Malachi 3:1
“See, I will send my messenger (mal'ak), who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger (mal'ak) of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.Matthew 11:10
“This is the one about whom it is written,
'BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.'The first messenger/angel/mal'ak is John the Baptist. Who is the second?
Jesus? Melchizedek?I am not sure, but if it is Jesus, then he is that messenger/angel/mal'ak.
mal'ak is the word used for angel in the Old Testament.
E.g., Genesis 19:1
The two angels (mal'ak) arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.I also wonder about the following verse too. Is it talking of godly men messengers or Cherubs and Seraphs, or both?
Hebrews 13:2
Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.I agree that most perhaps even all messengers who come from heaven are Cherubs/Seraphs/ but Jesus came from heaven too and he came as a messenger for God and as a man. So if he wasn't a Cherub, Seraph, but a man, then angel can be applied to men too.
Perhaps almost all messengers we read about are Cherubs/Seraphs and in turn we think that all angels are that. But we can at least say that John the Baptist was a messenger/angel and yet he was a man.
Jesus came as a man too, and he was sent from heaven.
John 6:42
They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?”John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.t8 But the difference is that Jesus is the Son of God and came forth from the Father, He was the first in all. He was first to be created
Rev. 3:14 and first to be resurrected. So in all He may have preeminence.
Colossians 1:15 ” Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATURE.”
verse 16 “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible…..
verse 17 ” And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”
Now notice He is also the firstborn of the dead in
verse 18 ” And He is the head of the church, who is the beginning, the first born of the dead, that in all He may have preeminence.For this I believe Jesus was not an Angel, they are a step below Him always have and always will be.
Hebrew 1: 5 For whom of the Angels did He ever say: ” You are my Son, today I have begotten you and again: ” I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son.”
Was He a messanger? Yes, He brought us the Good News. We are no longer under a death sentence.
Peace and Love Mrs.
The coming NEW gospel is that Jesus is not the Messiah but one who came down to “unite” Israel and make Israel ready for the real Messiah.
Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel–
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.1Th 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.The coming NEW gospel is that Jesus is not the Messiah but one who came down to “unite” Israel and make Israel ready for the real Messiah.
Ken Who is saying that? Did I miss something?
Peace and Love Mrs.
Hebrew 1: 5 For whom of the Angels did He ever say: ” You are my Son, today I have begotten you and again: ” I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son.”
Was Jesus the Firstborn and First begotten? Was Jesus begotten in the beginning as spirit. Then Begotten later as man?
If Jesus was the only son of God begotten. Then of course God would never have said to any angel “I have begotten you.”
If Jesus was begotten then Jesus “technically” wasn't created. Rather he was begotten. (like birth)
So then Jesus did create all things. Because everything apart from the Father and Son were created.
However, Jesus had companions (i.e. other sons of God) who are they?
I suspect their is a divine order of the family in heaven. the Following is an educated guess from my studies.
Father
Morningstars (sons of God)
Archangels (Princes)
Angels (Principalities)
Elements (Powers)
We are to become part of the family by being lifted above the angels and made sons of God.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 30 2007,06:18) The coming NEW gospel is that Jesus is not the Messiah but one who came down to “unite” Israel and make Israel ready for the real Messiah. Ken Who is saying that? Did I miss something?
Peace and Love Mrs.
John Hagee, that's what I believe he says in that video.But this is a wrong thread to talk about prophecy.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 30 2007,05:05) t8 But the difference is that Jesus is the Son of God and came forth from the Father, He was the first in all. He was first to be created
Rev. 3:14 and first to be resurrected. So in all He may have preeminence.
Colossians 1:15 ” Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATURE.”
verse 16 “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible…..
verse 17 ” And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”
Now notice He is also the firstborn of the dead in
verse 18 ” And He is the head of the church, who is the beginning, the first born of the dead, that in all He may have preeminence.For this I believe Jesus was not an Angel, they are a step below Him always have and always will be.
Hebrew 1: 5 For whom of the Angels did He ever say: ” You are my Son, today I have begotten you and again: ” I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son.”
Was He a messanger? Yes, He brought us the Good News. We are no longer under a death sentence.
Peace and Love Mrs.
I agree IM4Truth, although I am not sure about the created bit.But my point is not to argue that Jesus is a mere angelic being like a Cherub, but to say that the word Angel in the Old Testament can equally mean messenger.
If that is so, then Christ could be mentioned or disguised as an angel (messenger) in the Old Testament by us understanding that word to only apply to an angelic being and instead of seeing that it could be Christ.
Judges 13:18
And the angel of Jehovah said unto him, Wherefore askest thou after my name, seeing it is wonderful?Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.John 5:39
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,Perhaps a pre-existent Christ is in scripture, it just that we see the word angel and that stops us from seeing by reason of the narrow understanding most have of that word?
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 01 2007,00:16) Perhaps a pre-existent Christ is in scripture, it just that we see the word angel and that stops us from seeing by reason of the narrow understanding most have of that word?
Hi brother T8,
Do you mean angel of the Lord was preexistent-Christ if so then why the angel of the Lord appearing to Mary, Joseph, shepahards, Peter, Paul etc. in New testament even after Jesus the Christ was born?
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