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You are right Nick, and I see what they saw.
I do not know beyond doubt. I just see that the glove fits and fits so well that it in my mind it more likely the case than it not being so.
This passage really struck me. I see that it also struck the early fathers. Before I knew what Iraneus wrote I had had this exact thought. Then I look back in time and see he thought it as well long before I was born.
“For if ye had believed Moses, ye would also have believed Me; for he wrote of Me;” [saying this,] no doubt, because the Son of God is implanted everywhere throughout his writings: at one time, indeed, speaking with Abraham, when about to eat with him; at another time with Noah, giving to him the dimensions [of the ark]; at another; inquiring after Adam; at another, bringing down judgment upon the Sodomites; and again, when He becomes visible, and directs Jacob on his journey, and speaks with Moses from the bush.
Are you completely closed to this idea, Nick? Is it possible Jesus was the angel of the Lord?
Is Hebrews chapter 1 the solitary hindrance to this idea?
Hebrews 1:9 (young's literal)
9thou didst love righteousness, and didst hate lawlessness; because of this did He anoint thee — God, thy God — with oil of gladness above thy partnersWho are Jesus's partners that he is anointed above? It could be the angels since the entire chapter is about Jesus relationship to angels.
Hebrews 1:4 (young's literal)
4having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they.So at once again he has inherited a more excellent name than whom? The angels.
Could this chapter being saying that Jesus is one of the angels only with a more perfect nature, anointing and inheritance?
Hi Mercy,
He is above the angels.
He was made for a time below the angels but now again is far above them, who are his servants.Quote (Mercy @ Sep. 28 2006,03:33) I see overwhelming evidence that Jesus existed prior to his incarnation. I see a some strong evidence that he was the angel of the Lord.
Hi Mercy, I agree with you….on both counts…Blessings
Hi Is 1.18,
If Jesus was the Angel of the Lord,
and is part of a trinity God you say you espouse,
how can you reconcile that an angel is part of God?Quote If Jesus was the Angel of the Lord, and is part of a trinity God you say you espouse, how can you reconcile that an angel is part of God? Genesis 16:7-13The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. And he said, “Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?” I’m running away from my mistress Sarai,” she answered. Then the angel of the LORD told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” The angel added, “I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count.” The angel of the LORD also said to her: You are now with child and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the LORD has heard of your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”Notice:
- The angel, speaking in the first person, says “I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count.””
- Hagar, in reference to the visitation of the angel of the Lord, utters:”You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”Genesis 22:15-1815 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.”Notice:
- The ‘angel of the Lord’ and ‘The Lord’ (YHWH) are used interchangeably in this passage.
- The ‘angel of the Lord’ assumes the divine prerogative of “promising” Israel great blessing and prosperity.
- The angel speaks ‘from heaven’–there is no need for an earthly messenger or ‘representative’ in this case.Exodus 3:1-141 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.” 4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.” 5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God. 7 The LORD said, “I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. 8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey—the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 9 And now the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 So now, go. I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt.” 11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I, that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the Israelites out of Egypt?” 12 And God said, “I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain.” 13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’Notice:
- The ‘angel of the Lord’ and ‘The Lord’ are used interchangeably in this passage.
- The Angel of God calls HIMSELF the “God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”
- The writer calls the Angel “God” Exodus 13:21-22 (with 14:19-20)By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people. Then the angel of God, who had been traveling in front of Israel’s army, withdrew and went behind them. The pillar of cloud also moved from in front and stood behind them, coming between the armies of Egypt and Israel. Throughout the night the cloud brought darkness to the one side and light to the other side; so neither went near the other all night long.Notice:
- The ‘angel of the Lord’ and ‘The Lord’ are used interchangeably in this passage.
- The same events are ascribed to both YHWH and the Angel of God Judges 6:11-2311 The angel of the LORD came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon, he said, “The LORD is with you, mighty warrior.” 13 “But sir,” Gideon replied, “if the LORD is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, ‘Did not the LORD bring us up out of Egypt?’ But now the LORD has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian.” 14 The LORD turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?” 15 “But Lord , ” Gideon asked, “how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family.” 16 The LORD answered, “I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together.” 17 Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you.” And the LORD said, “I will wait until you return.” 19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak. 0 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth.” And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the LORD touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the LORD disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the LORD, he exclaimed, “Ah, Sovereign LORD! I have
seen the angel of the LORD face to face!” 23 But the LORD said to him, “Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die.”Notice: - The ‘angel of the Lord’ and ‘The Lord’ (YHWH) are again used interchangeably in this passage.
- Gideon declares “Ah, Sovereign LORD! I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face!””
Hi Is 1.18,
Or alternatively and more simply the angel is the angel of the Lord who represents God.
Thus there is no confusion between God and his creation.Or it is Jesus, who is the very image of the invisible God yet is not God himself. The firstborn with a divine inheritence who was called the word of God in both the old and new testament. THE Son of God whom no other angel is like nor holds a simular authority.
Who speaks for the Father but the Word of God?
Jesus has been confused for God since the beginning. Jesus tells us no man has ever seen God. Jesus says he reveals God. Yet we are told they thought they saw God even when the passage states it was the angel of the Lord.
His name is in him.
The Angel of the Lord
“A Study of Theophanies in the Scriptures”
Callum BeckI
The Angel of the Lord (lit. Jehovah) oftentimes in the OT is equated with and yet distinct from Jehovah. The passage which may best describe their relation is Isaiah 63:8-9, wherein God is called Israel's Savior, but it is the Angel of His presence that saves Israel. This Angel of God was generally regarded by the early church Fathers as the Logos or Word of God (John 1:1), the one who declared God and whose glory we have beheld (John 1:14,18; cf John 12:45; 14:9; II Corinthians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15; 2:9; Hebrews 1:3). See E. W. Hengstenberg, Christology of the Old Testament, pp. 80-91, 1279-1312 for a thorough discussion of this issue. Below is a list of verses where this Angel/Logos appears:
Genesis 16:7-14; 21:17-19; 22:1-2,11-18; 31:11-13 with 28:13 & 35:1,3,7,15; 48:15-16
Exodus 3:1-6; 13:21-22 w/ 14:19 & Numbers 20:16; 23:20-23. Cf Acts 7:30-38
Numbers 22:21-35. Cf 22:9,20; 23:3-5,15-16; 24:2,4,16
Judges 2:1-5; 6:11-24; 13:2-23
Isaiah 63:8-9
Hosea 12:3-5. Cf Genesis 32:24-30
Zechariah 1:7-12: 2:3-5,8-11; 3:1-10; 12:8
Malachi 3:1 (messenger of the Covenant = angel of the covenant).This Angel/Logos is primarily called the Angel of Jehovah (Malak Yahweh), but is also referred to as the Angel of God (Elohim), the Angel, my Angel and an Angel. Sometimes, however, these expressions are used of other figures (Exodus 32:34-33:4; Ecclesiastes 5:6; Malachi 2:7; 3:1 ‘my messenger’), and sometimes it is uncertain whether the Logos or a normal angel is intended (Genesis 24:7,40; Judges 5:23; II Samuel 24:16-17; I Kings 19:5-7; II Kings 1:3,15; 19:35; I Chronicles 21:11-30; II Chronicles 32:21; Psalm 34:7; 35:5-6; Isaiah 37:36; Daniel 6:22).
II
The logos also appeared in the Old Testament in various human forms (Genesis 18:1-19:22; 21:1 with 18:10; 32:24-30; Joshua 5:13-6:2; Ezekiel 1:25-2:4; 8:1-4; Daniel 3:25,28; 8:15-16; 10:5-9,16-11:1; 12:6-9; Zechariah 11:4-17; 13:7). The man who wrestled with Jacob (Genesis 32:24-30) is specifically called “the Angel … even Jehovah” in Hosea 12:3-5, the commander of the Lord's army (Joshua 5:14) is almost certainly the angel of Exodus 23:20-23 & Numbers 22:21-35, and probably all of the other figures are likewise to be equated with the Angel of the Lord.
III
There are also other theophanies, or manifestations of God, in the Old Testament. These are not associated with any particular angelic or human forms. See, for example:
Genesis 12:7; 17:1-22; 26:2,24; 28:13-17; 35:1,9
Exodus 19:3,8-25; 20:18-22; 24:1-2,9-18; 29:42-46; 31:18; 32:30-34:11; 34:29-35; 40:34-35
Numbers 1:1; 9:15-23; 11:16-17,24-25; 12:4-10; 14:10-14; 16:42; 20:6-7
Deuteronomy 1:30-33; 4:10-15,32-37; 5:4-5,22-27; 33:2; 34:10
Job 38:1; 42:5
Isaiah 6:1 with Jn 12:39-41
Ezekiel 1:1; 3:23-24; 9:3-4; 10:1-4,18-20; 11:22-23; 43:1-7; 44:4; 48:35
Amos 9:1Again it would seem that in many, if not all, of these cases that God appeared in the form of His Angel. This is certainly the case in the theophany to Jacob at Bethel, for in Genesis 31:11-13 the Angel of God says that He is the God of Bethel to whom Jacob had made a vow in Genesis 28:18-22. It would also seem that the presence (lit. ‘face’) of Jehovah in Exodus 33:14-15 is another title for the Angel of Exodus 23:20-23, as both perform the same work of leading Israel into the promised land (cf Deuteronomy 4:37). Further evidence for this equation comes from the expression “Angel of His presence” (lit. ‘face’) in Isaiah 63:9. It seems to have been formed by conjoining the two names, and suggests that the inspired prophet equated “the face of Jehovah” with “the Angel in whom is the name of the Lord” (Exodus 23:21).
IV
The scripture declares that no man has seen or can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18; 5:37; I Timothy 6:16; I John 4:12,20), save, of course, for Jesus (John 6:46). Yet we have many appearances of God in the Old Testament as noted above, and the plain declaration of Jesus that he who has seen him has seen the Father (John 1:18; 12:45; 14:9). John 12:38-41 further expressly identifies God in Isaiah 6:1 with Jesus. The only logical conclusion to be drawn from all of this is that Jesus, in his pre-incarnate form as the Word = Logos, also performed the work of revealing God to man in Old Testament times. The Logos manifested himself sometime in the form of the Angel, sometime as a human figure, sometime in nature (Exodus 13:21; 20:18-22), and sometimes in an unidentified form (e.g., Genesis 17:1,22; 35:9). Because the Logos is both with God and is God (John 1:1), it can be true both that men in the Old Testament saw God and that no man has seen the Father at any time. The only other things worthy of note are that Moses alone of all the prophets seems to have seen the Father Himself, though not literally face to face (Exodus 33:18-23; 34:5-7,29; Numbers 12:6-8; Deuteronomy 34:10); and in the age to come we will see God even as He is (Job 19:25-27; Psalm 11:7; 17:15; Matthew 5:8; I John 3:2; Revelation 22:4).
Special Study in Daniel
The Angel/Word is manifested as:
One like a son of the gods = His angel – 3:25,28; 6:22.
The Prince (sar) of the Host – 8:11,25; cf Joshua 5:14.
A holy one speaking – 8:13-14; cf 12:6-7.
The appearance of a man = a man clothed in linen – 8:15-16; 10:5-9,16-19; 12:6-7; cf Ezekiel 9-10.
Daniel's greater Lord – 10:17 (see C. 4 below).
The Messiah –
a) One like a son of man – 7:13-14.
b) Prince (nagid) / Anointed – 9:24-25.Michael is manifested as:
Part of the faithful Host of Heaven – 8:10-12.
One of the chief Princes (sar) – 10:13.
Israel's Prince (sar) – 10:21; 12:1; cf Jude 9 & Rev 12:7.Gabriel is manifested as:
Part of the faithful Host of Heaven – 8:10-12.
A holy one who questioned the Angel – 8:13-14; cf 12:6-7.
The Angel of Interpretation – 7:16; 8:16-19; 9:21-22; 10:10-15,20-11:1; 12:8-9.
He delivered the revelations in 7:17-27; 8:19-26; 9:22-27; 11:2-12:4; 12:9-13.
Daniel's lesser Lord – 10:16b-17,19b; 12:8.
One of the angels by the river – 12:5-6.Note on spiritual warfare:
Israel's Prince, Michael, had been in battle with the Prince of Persia, in the first year of Darius the Mede (11:1). Gabriel was sent to “confirm and strengthen” Michael (11:1), in response to Daniel's prayer (see chapter 9, especially v. 23). His support, judging from 9:1 and 9:20-23, seemed primarily to be helping Daniel gain understanding of the vision, which in this case involved the delivery of a Messianic prophecy to mankind.Gabriel then seems to have been left alone battling the Kings of Persia (10:13,21). Daniel had prayed for help in understanding another vision (10:1-3,12), but the Prince of Persia was preventing Gabriel from getting through to Daniel (10:12-13). So this time Michael came to the aid of Gabriel (10:13), freeing him up so that he could again give Daniel understanding of what will happen to his people in the latter days (10:14).
Two points of interest. First, what happens on earth (prayer) moves heavenly forces in the battle against principalities and powers, and they in turn minister to men (in the book of Daniel primarily through giving understanding of future events connected to the people of God and their Messiah). Second, Gabriel who is one of God's main warriors against the demonic forces, is also given the knowledge of their future power and ultimate destruction. This must have been great consolation to him as he prepared for future battle against God's enemies.
Special Study in Ezekiel
The Angel/Word
Visions of God – 1:1; cf 8:3; 11:24; 40:2.
Glory of Jehovah – 3:23; 8:4; 9:3; 10:4, 18-20; 11:22-23; 43:1-7; 44:4.
A likeness as the appearance of a man – 1:25-2:4; 8:1-4; 10:20.
The Messiah (?) Prince (nasi) – 44:2-3, etc. (17 times in
Ezekiel 44-48); cf 34:24 & 37:25.
Note that, the Glory of Jehovah and the being who looked like a man, are in fact the same figure. Compare 10:20 with 1:26-28.Two Important Figures
The Man in White Linen – 9:2-4,6,11; 10:2-3,6-7.
The man whose appearance was like bronze, who guided Ezekiel on the tour of the Temple – 40:3-4; 42:6; 44:1,4; 46:19-47:12.Angels
The four Living Creatures = Cherubim – 1:5-25; 10:1-22.
The six destroying Angels – 9:1-7.The Angel in the New Testament
There is no mention of the Angel of the Lord in the Gospels or the Epistles, and only one historical reference in the Acts (7:38). One must ask why such a prominent Old Testament figure suddenly disappeared in the New. The answer, of course, is that he did not. He just took on a different form. For in the New Covenant the Angel of the Lord has been incarnated as Jesus the Messiah. And all the attributes and work ascribed to the Angel are now found in Christ. Through both God performs his tasks of redemption, judgement and revelation. And are not the persons of both fairly summed up in the Hebrew writer's expression ” the effulgence of His glory and the very image of His substance”?
The Angel/Logos, however, does reappear in the last book of the New Testament, and here is shown in his full glory (Revelation 1:10-4:1; 14:14-16(?); 19:11-21; 22:7,12-20). John clearly equates him with the figures in Ezekiel and Daniel who had the appearance of a man. He is further expressly designated as the Word of God (19:13), the Son of God (2:18), and as the one who was dead and is alive forevermore. If any further proof were needed that the Angel of the Lord is the Logos in pre-incarnate form, this should be sufficient. John's descriptions of the one “like unto a son of man” also makes it clear that the Angel is a divine person — for he, like the Father (1:8), is Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End (22:13).
Link to this article Here
Quote (Mercy @ Sep. 28 2006,13:42) Or it is Jesus, who is the very image of the invisible God yet is not God himself. The firstborn with a divine inheritence who was called the word of God in both the old and new testament. THE Son of God whom no other angel is like nor holds a simular authority. Who speaks for the Father but the Word of God?
Jesus has been confused for God since the beginning. Jesus tells us no man has ever seen God. Jesus says he reveals God. Yet we are told they thought they saw God even when the passage states it was the angel of the Lord.
His name is in him.
Hi mercy,
You have the choice to believe what you wish,
but to teach what you believe to others,
requires that what you believe is written,
and not just implied.Our Master demands that we abide in the Word of God.
See how often he said such words as
“It is written..”
Such is the teaching of God and not men.
Point taken.
What do you make of the vast numbes of circumstantial evidence?
Honestly, what do you think of it in more than one dismissive sentence. I would like to know if you think it has any credance.
Hi mercy,
No one should ever rely on circumstantial evidence and teach it as truth. Such ideas have led to monstrous fabrications like the trinity theory.Truth comes directly from the mouth of God and has witnesses.
2Cor 13
” 1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”Quote Could this chapter being saying that Jesus is one of the angels only with a more perfect nature, anointing and inheritance?
Yes Mercy. It could be saying that.Quote Hi Is 1.18,
If Jesus was the Angel of the Lord,
and is part of a trinity God you say you espouse,
how can you reconcile that an angel is part of God?Good question Nick. I thought most trinitarians rejected the possibility that Jesus could be the archangel or the angel of the lord, because for them, this would completely abolish the trinity theory. So they don't even consider it. Or so I thought.
david
Quote What do you make of the vast numbes of circumstantial evidence? Honestly, what do you think of it in more than one dismissive sentence. I would like to know if you think it has any credance.
Unless Nick sees it in writing Mercy, it doesn't exist.
Nick, does the Bible contain all possible knowledge? Have we been told everything? We've been told all we need to know. But just because something isn't directly stated, does not in itself make it untrue.
dave
In courtrooms, things are proved right or wrong based on evidence.
In your mind, the non-trinity belief is a “provable truth.” Yet to others, not so obvious. In fact, it's not provable. Yet, you speak of this belief quite a bit. You have no problem proclaiming it aloud.Which scripture says: “God is not a trinity” Nick?
Which one?
Evidence Nick.
Evidence.
Hooray.
Hi david,
The courts are not filled with people trying to prove something is not true
but people are there to defend what is alleged to be true.Only a brave man would teach someting as truth about spiritual matters without basing that teaching on what is clearly written and taught in the bible.
Do you agree?
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