The Angel of the LORD

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
Please stay within scriptural proofs as that is what we share.
The rest is one and one makes three.

Going beyond scripture and saying that Jesus
acts like a messenger and
messengers are angels and
so we should conclude he must be an angel
does you know favours in a biblical forum where we show light on what IS REVEALED in scripture.

Bold type makes such vain speculations no more true either.

[NickHassan]

HI,
Much of the speculations about Theophanies and Christophanies in the OT can be put aside when we grasp the concept of the “Angel of the Lord” in my view.

He is given the authority of God to speak and act for God and even as God. In my view it is he who appears to Abraham and in the other situations where it seems God or Christ visits earth.

We are told that God gives the tablets of the laws to Moses but Hebrews clarifies that they too came through angels.

My view is that God is so supreme that He does all His work through servants, angelic and human mainly in the OT, and in the New through Jesus and then the apostles and even us.

This is a mighty angelic being and we need to know more about him. Yes it is my speculation too that it is he who appears but he is revealed to have special abilities given him as perhaps the leading “civil servant” angel. Michael is shown, however as a leading warrior angel.

By the way in 2Thess 4 .16, which the JWs read as Christ actually being THE archangel Michael, the word “the” is added by the translators for clarity so it does not define it as relating to any sole archangel, and of course it is gross and offensive presumption to say it is Christ.

[seminarian]

Really excellent posts guys!  Nick, I agree with your analysis regarding Christ not being an angel.
Monogenes means what is says, one of a kind, only begotton.  No angel can claim that.

I have a question:  I got into a discussion with the “Pastor of Education” at the church where I serve. I really never cease to be amazed at the wierdness of trinitarian beliefs and HE has a Masters of Divinity!

O.k. here it is.  Remember the three strangers who were angels who appeared to Sarah and Abraham who fortold the birth of Isaac in Genesis?  Two “angels” went their way to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and one so named the LORD stayed as Abraham entreated for the city to be spared at the last, for the sake of 10 righteous men.  

This pastor was trying to convince me that the “LORD” which is the tetragrammaton or Yahweh cied there was really Jesus!  So there are two Yahwehs now according to him?  I told him that the Bible does not say nor infer that at all and is full of instances where it says the LORD spoke to so and so but it was later shown it was by means of an angel.  

I cited the burning bush, pillar of fire,(Deut 4:33) etc.  This was no diffferent.  It was an angel speaking FOR God in first person singular, for Jesus said, no man has seen his face or heard his voice at anytime. However individuals such as Paul and Peter have heard the Lord Jesus' voice after he ascended to heaven.

I am assisting in the Minister Certification classes at church so I have to attend.  However, I can not wait until it is over because of mindless drivel like this!  If I were not getting credit for auditing this course as extra stars on my chart for seminary school, I would leave.  Well, what do you think?  The other two are clearly identified as angels while the third was called the LORD.  I still say it was an angel and obviously NOT Jesus.  He says it was God the Son, (this phrase is not even in the Bible), as the second Yahweh (my Bible says there is only ONE God.)  Your thoughts?

Trying to keep my sanity here,

Semmy

[NickHassan]

Hi s,
Would you believe some even say it is an appearance of the trinity!!
That is the verse I was referring to when I said I believed was the angel of the Lord. As you said he was with two others who are later said [Gen 19.1]and shown to be angels. There is no apparent differences between them suggesting they are all of the similar angelic nature, except one seemed to be in authority over the other two, though he consulted with them too[Gen 18.17].Would God need to consult??

[seminarian]

Thanks Nick!

Excellent, yes I did see that in your post after I wrote my question. Yeah, HE SAID THAT TOO!  Were you there somehow Nick?  “Well, I believe it was the appearance of the Holy Trinity” he says smugly.  Oh brother.  He knew I wasn't going to believe what he said so that's why he prefaced it with, “Well, I believe…” (like I really care).

Once again I told him the Bible doesn't say that.  He knew he had no scriptural proof to back this up and I wasn't going to buy this fairy tale with out it.  You are right.  Why would God need to consult with anyone?  I agree this was the Angel of the LORD speaking for Him as if he were God,(first person singular) even as he had in the burning bush.  These seem to be intelligent, educated people. Is the spirit of deception so strong that it makes them believe non-Biblical nonsense over the truth?

Thanks,

Semmy

[Proclaimer]

We know that no one has seen God. God sends his servants/messengers. Christ, Angelic beings, men, etc.

1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; ….

1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.

1 Timothy 6:15-16
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Haven't countless people seen Jesus?

The word “God” in these verses are of course referring to the Father as the following scriptures prove.

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.

[NickHassan]

Quote (seminarian @ July 04 2006,01:29)

Thanks Nick! Excellent, yes I did see that in your post after I wrote my question. Yeah, HE SAID THAT TOO!  Were you there somehow Nick?  “Well, I believe it was the appearance of the Holy Trinity” he says smugly.  Oh brother.  He knew I wasn't going to believe what he said so that's why he prefaced it with, “Well, I believe…” (like I really care). Once again I told him the Bible doesn't say that.  He knew he had no scriptural proof to back this up and I wasn't going to buy this fairy tale with out it.  You are right.  Why would God need to consult with anyone?  I agree this was the Angel of the LORD speaking for Him as if he were God,(first person singular) even as he had in the burning bush.  These seem to be intelligent, educated people. Is the spirit of deception so strong that it makes them believe non-Biblical nonsense over the truth? Thanks, Semmy

Hi S,
The being also spoke of what the Lord would do.
“Is anything too difficult for the Lord?”
and again vv 19
Would God speak about Himself in this way?

I cannot grasp that some can think God is so small to be complete within one of his tiniest creations[men]

[seminarian]

Amen T8 & Nick,

I really think people, even those with advanced theological degrees, fail to grasp the awsomeness of our Heavenly Father.  They mistakenly see his as being humbled, beaten, spit upon and crucified when he “became a man” as Jesus. Hello. God is not a man nor the son of man as quoted in Hosea 11:9 and Numbers 23:19.  They completely miss the “otherness” of God.  There is NO match, NO comparison, NO equal to El Shaddai or God Almighty!

I think Nick or someone made a good point that even Christ is too high to be sent as a messenger which is what angel means.  He came as a man for a specific task.  I can't see God wasting Jesus' time before then when He has legions of angels at his disposal as well as archangels Micheal and Gabriel to do this.  I believe in Acts Paul speaks of the spirit of Jesus, (perhaps the angel of Jesus), preventing him from entering a territory.  I'll look up the scripture.

The trend is to want to bring God down to their level and that's why our Lord said in John 5:37:
“And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.”

They were standing right there, looking at and listening to Jesus!  So they were looking at God here? The Bible says no one can see Him and live. Give me a break. Obviously they do not know who God is.  

Great posts.  Keep em' coming.

Semmy

[Cubes]

Hi Semmy:

In addition to what has been said, if Trinitarians take Genesis 18 to mean proof of a Trinity, then shouldn't they also admit that members of the Trinity are men and angels? Genesis 18:2, 22; Genesis 19:1.

What is known for a fact is that YHWH does send angels and men. But we have not been told that he is an angel or a man.

[seminarian]

Absolutely Cubes!

So they are saying members of the holy Trinity are actually angels?
You know it just keeps getting more and more absurd. I don't even
think they really believe all this stuff. They just keep up these lies
to keep their positions as pastors.

Most of the members are getting wise and leaving after having their
intelligence insulted over and over. I'm seeing this in the church I
serve and soon I will be among the exiting ranks myself!

Thanks again Cubes!

Semmy
again.

[ronday888]

I am new to this forum, and although I have read many of the posts in this thread, I haven't read all of them.

I thought I would post an excerpt from what I have written for the RL website concerning the “angel of Yahweh”, and maybe post more later.

Quote

from the online study: The Angel of Yahweh The angel of Yahweh who speaks for Yahweh is often referred to as Yahweh. Many who believe the trinitarian philosophy have claimed that this is two different persons of the trinity: the Father and his Son. It is true that certain scriptures seem to imply that Yahweh was speaking directly to humans, but a comparison of scriptures shows that Yahweh was actually speaking through or by means of his angel(s). — Exodus 3:2-4 [see Acts 7:30,35; Galatians 3:19]; Genesis 16:7-11,13; 22:1,11,12,15-18. We have to assume something in reference to the scriptures that speak of the “angel of Yahweh”, for the Bible gives no direct answer to this, except the statements in Acts 7:30,35 and Galatians 3:19. Trinitarians assume that Yahweh was an angel and yet that the angel was the angel — messenger “of” Yahweh, sent by Yahweh. Therefore they view the appearances of the angel of Yahweh as so-called theophanies. They seem to see no inconsistency in this whatsoever. Indeed, their reasoning is that Yahweh is the angel sent by Yahweh, claiming that Yahweh as the Son was sent by Yahweh as the Father. Yet the trinitarians seem to pride themselves that they are seeing things “spiritually” in this apparent contradiction. There are trinitarians that claim that there is only one angel of Yahweh, whom they claim is the Son of God. We do not actually know that there is only one angel of Yahweh, as both the Hebrew and the Greek are indefinite, so that it could be rendered “an angel of Yahweh”. In Luke 1:11,19,26 an angel of Yahweh is identified as Gabriel. If there is only one “angel of Yahweh”, then the angel is thus identified as Gabriel, not Jesus. As far as Jesus in the Old Testament, it very well could have been that the same chain of communication was employed in the Old Testament days as was employed in Revelation: From Yahweh to the Logos to the angel of Yahweh. (Revelation 1:1; Genesis 16:7-11; 22:11; 31:11; Exodus 3:2-5; 23:20-23; Judges 2:1-4; 6:11,12; 13:3) We can read that Jesus was there with his God and Father before the world of mankind was made, and that it was through the pre-human Jesus, spoken of as the Logos, that the world of mankind was made. — John 1:1,3,10; 17:5. Although we do leave open the possibility that Jesus could have made appearances in the OT as an angel of Yahweh, the only angel actually identified by name as an angel of Yahweh is Gabriel. (Luke 1:11,19) Nevertheless, we are not given any hint in the scriptures that any of the scriptures that refer an “angel of Yahweh” has any reference to Jesus in his pre-human existence, although many Bible Students have stated that this angel was Jesus in his pre-human existence. Nevertheless, even if this angel was the prehuman Jesus, it does not follow that this means that Jesus is a supposed person of a triune God. We have mentioned Galatians 3:19. In this scripture the apostle Paul speaks of “angels” [plural] used in the setting up the law. “Why, then, the law? on account of the transgressions it was added, till the seed might come to which the promise hath been made, having been set in order through messengers [angels] in the hand of a mediator.” (New American Standard) The word translated “ordain” (Strong's 1299) in the KJV here means: “to arrange, appoint, ordain, prescribe, give order.” The mediator referred to is Moses, who thus received the law from God through the angels, who set these laws in order to Moses so that he could write them down. We conclude that there were “angels” that spoke for and represented the Word of Yahweh, and thus quoted Yahweh in the first person as they spoke the words of Yahweh. Likewise, they were on occasion responded to by the term “Yahweh”, since Yahweh was speaking through them. Another point is that many trinitarians will deny that Jesus was an angel before coming to the earth (in opposing the idea that Jesus is Michael the archangel), yet paradoxically want the angel of Yahweh spoken of here to be the prehuman Jesus. Nevertheless, there are some trinitarians who do believe that Jesus is the Michael the archangel, although these claim that Michael was uncreated. Jesus never made any claims to be Yahweh. He claimed Yahweh as his God and Father, the one who sent him, anointed him, and gave him his authority. The holy spirit reveals through the scriptures that Yahweh (Jehovah) is the only true God, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus. Yahweh (Jehovah) is the God and Father of the Lord Jesus. Jesus has one who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not his Supreme Being whom he worships, prays to, and who sent him, and whose will he carried out in willful obedience. — Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12. The holy spirit reveals through the scriptures that Jesus was sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh, represents Yahweh. Jesus is not Yahweh whom he represents and speaks for. — Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17,32-35; 4:34; 5:19,30,36,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 8:6; 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.

[NickHassan]

Hi Ronald,
Good points.
Angels are clearly differentiated from the Son of God in Hebrews 1-2

“but to which of the angels has He ever said
'Sit at My right hand until I make thine enemies a footstool for your feet'?
Are they not ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?”

Jesus did not have such menial tasks.

[seminarian]

Hey Ronald,

Welcome and thanks for sharing that gem of a paper. I like
your citations of scriptures to back up your thoughts. Nick and me
basically made similar points that even though Yah is quoted in first
person singular, it was always an angel or messenger speaking for
Him. That does NOT of course make the angel, Yahweh in human
flesh or an angel!

I thought I had heard it all until a pastor tried to prove there were
TWO Yahwehs, just so he could make Jesus equal to the Father!
I've never heard anything so ridiculous. “Hear O Isreal, the LORD
our God, the LORD (Yahweh) is ONE.” Deut. 6:4

The Lord Jesus quoted this very verse to teach the first and
foremost of all commandments. That is to love the LORD (Yahweh)
your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. (Mark 12:29)

Now if we are to love this ONE God will all we have, what can be
left to love the other two members of the so called trinity with?
Its nonsense.

“Another point is that many trinitarians will deny that Jesus was an angel before coming to the earth (in opposing the idea that Jesus is Michael the archangel), yet paradoxically want the angel of Yahweh spoken of here to be the prehuman Jesus. Nevertheless, there are some trinitarians who do believe that Jesus is the Michael the archangel, although these claim that Michael was uncreated.”

Nick provided an answer to this too. It is impossible because Jesus was NEVER an angel
as he is a one of a kind or monogenes, only begotten of the Father:

Angels are clearly differentiated from the Son of God in Hebrews 1-2

“but to which of the angels has He ever said
'Sit at My right hand until I make thine enemies a footstool for your feet'?

God has also told the angels to worship Jesus. Angels do not receive worship
from each other or from men. They are fellow servants.

“And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God's angels worship him.” (Heb 1:6)

That's why we have to read the WHOLE of scripture and not just parts we
want to cut and paste into our personal theology. Good job!

Bless you and welcome again,

Semmy

[Cubes]

Just thought to throw this scripture in for good measure as relates to appearances of Christ in the OT, before he came in the flesh.  

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
Is that KJV?
NASB says instead
“….and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of [the] gods”['the' added for understanding by translator]
It was spoken by some of the pagan high officials of Nebuchadnezzer who cannot be relied on to recognise THE son of God, but might know angels?.

[seminarian]

Quote (Cubes @ July 08 2006,02:44)

Just thought to throw this scripture in for good measure as relates to appearances of Christ in the OT, before he came in the flesh.   Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Hey Cubes!

I think Nick has a good thought on this scripture your quoted. Remember, most Bible versions are written by trinitarians who often take all sorts of liberties when doing translations.

Just as Nick said, Nebby was a pagan idol worshipper so I doubt if he'd even recognize God's Son if he kicked him! The proper translation is a more literal one “son of the gods” taken from the Hebrew, “bene elohim”. The NIV is a trinitarian translation too but is updated in it uses older manuscripts than were available for the KJV.

The NIV renders that verse as saying, ” and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” [Dan. 3:25]

I think our Lord was too good to come down for a furnace job. Thinking he was seeing “a son of the gods” would be about right for a pagan king who believed in multiple dieties.

Which leads to my current seminary course on Comparitive World Religions. So many false gods, so little time. Ugh. Anyone got a Tylenol?

Semmy

[NickHassan]

Hi semmy,
Religions of the world can put their icons on their wall and worship them. They do not know our God. Only we enjoy life in the family of God. We are hidden in His Son, share in His own Spirit and call Him “Abba. Father”

[seminarian]

Hey Nick,

Absolutely! We know the God whom we worship but tell me, how intimate can you become with a multiple Godhead or trinity of gods? Really this is no god at all. This is too why the true power for living righteously is so diminished among those who do not know the One true God and His Son Christ Jesus.

Yours posts are like a healing balm Nick,

Semmy

[NickHassan]

Hi semmy,
Another small and temporary victory for Satan, to change the apparent nature of God and cause the distance to enlarge between man and the love of that Father God.

[Cubes]

Quote (seminarian @ July 08 2006,10:06)

Which leads to my current seminary course on Comparitive World Religions.  So many false gods, so little time.  Ugh.  Anyone got a Tylenol? Semmy

Ha ha!  How's about a nice cup of black coffee?  

Better you than me!

Guys, I have to run off for the evening shift.  May be a double.  Hope to comment more on this later.

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