The Angel of the LORD

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2012,08:52)

John the Baptist does not PREPARE Jesus Christ. This is the only time Jesus is called the MESSENGER so any witnesses do not exist for developing theories he was an ANGEL.

What part of messenger and angel being the exact same word in the Greek do you not understand. Is this fact really that hard to grasp? For most it is something that can be understood immediately.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
Messenger=Angel.

So to you the words are entirely interchangeable.
So any witnessing verses that could call Jesus an angel?

Perhaps heb 1?

[kerwin]

Quote (t8 @ June 02 2012,05:52)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2012,08:52) John the Baptist does not PREPARE Jesus Christ. This is the only time Jesus is called the MESSENGER so any witnesses do not exist for developing theories he was an ANGEL. What part of messenger and angel being the exact same word in the Greek do you not understand. Is this fact really that hard to grasp? For most it is something that can be understood immediately.

T8;

Are you making the point that even if Scripture calls Jesus a messenger(angel) it does not mean he is a being composed of spirit?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2012,13:56)

Hi t8, Messenger=Angel. So to you the words are entirely interchangeable. So any witnessing verses that could call Jesus an angel? Perhaps heb 1?

Nick. Scripture uses one word. That is what I am saying.

This has a number of connotations that few have thought about.

Just as a young girl was to conceive and we think virgin, yet scripture says a young girl.

What does this mean, that Mary was the young girl and likely a virgin given her age and what we read.

Similarly, Jesus is not an angel as in the Seraph or Cherub sense, but was certainly one in the  messenger sense.

So instead of being blinded by the possibility that Jesus is a Cherub which I don't see anyone saying here, have you thought that the Angel of the LORD may not be a Cherub or Seraph either. When you read about the Angel of the LORD, he is always described as different to the angels that accompany him. He is different to them and is special and wonderful.

Scripture uses the same word that we use for messenger and angel. Get use to it. Jesus, John, Men, Cherub, and Seraph are called angels in scripture. Ignoring that doesn't make it go away.

It is not true when men say that Jesus is not an angel. Scripture differs to this view plain and simple. If a man differs to scripture, then it is not scripture that should change is it?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ June 02 2012,14:41)

T8; Are you making the point that even if Scripture calls Jesus a messenger(angel) it does not mean he is a being composed of spirit?

Hi Kerwin. No I wasn't making that point.

[Ed J]

Quote (t8 @ June 02 2012,10:50)

Quote (Ed J @ May 31 2012,01:12) Hi T8, you got the story confused. The messenger of the covenant is Jesus. Malachi 3:1 mentions both, John the Baptist: the messenger that shall prepare the way, for the messenger of the covenant which is Jesus Christ the Lord. Edj. Are you joking with me? If not, then you are the one who is confused. This is exactly what I was saying all a long. Because you disagreed with what I was saying, I assumed that you denied that Jesus was called a messenger in this scripture because you said it was about John the Baptist and not Jesus at all, when I was saying that both Jesus and John were being referenced. It appears you are now saying that indeed Jesus was a messenger too which is the same as saying that Jesus was an angel as the English words messenger and angel are the same Greek word. Why does everything take so long to establish here. If we read what others are actually saying then it would be much easier for all.

Hi T8, perhaps it was only a matter of miscommunication then.

It least my post was clear enough for you to see we were agreeing all along.  

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2012,05:52)

Hi Ed, Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger (John the Baptist), and he shall prepare the way before me(God): and the Lord (God ), whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple(God as Spirit in Jesus Christ), even the messenger of the covenant (Jesus Christ), whom ye delight in: behold, he(My Spirit) shall come, saith (God) the “LORD of Hosts”[Hosts of angels]. John the Baptist does not PREPARE Jesus Christ. This is the only time Jesus is called the MESSENGER so any witnesses do not exist for developing theories he was an ANGEL.

Hi Nick,

I guess I was mistaken thinking that T8 was disagreeing with us.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

Quote (t8 @ June 03 2012,18:20)

Quote (kerwin @ June 02 2012,14:41) T8; Are you making the point that even if Scripture calls Jesus a messenger(angel) it does not mean he is a being composed of spirit? Hi Kerwin. No I wasn't making that point.

T8;

It seemed like you were.

What do you believe is meant when Scripture declares that World to come is not subject to angels?

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
Jesus is called once a messenger [?angel] and that is enough for you to build on?
You really think he is the ANGEL of the Lord despite Heb 1?

[Wakeup]

Quote (t8 @ June 03 2012,23:18)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2012,13:56) Hi t8, Messenger=Angel. So to you the words are entirely interchangeable. So any witnessing verses that could call Jesus an angel? Perhaps heb 1? Nick. Scripture uses one word. That is what I am saying. This has a number of connotations that few have thought about. Just as a young girl was to conceive and we think virgin, yet scripture says a young girl. What does this mean, that Mary was the young girl and likely a virgin given her age and what we read. Similarly, Jesus is not an angel as in the Seraph or Cherub sense, but was certainly one in the  messenger sense. So instead of being blinded by the possibility that Jesus is a Cherub which I don't see anyone saying here, have you thought that the Angel of the LORD may not be a Cherub or Seraph either. When you read about the Angel of the LORD, he is always described as different to the angels that accompany him. He is different to them and is special and wonderful. Scripture uses the same word that we use for messenger and angel. Get use to it. Jesus, John, Men, Cherub, and Seraph are called angels in scripture. Ignoring that doesn't make it go away. It is not true when men say that Jesus is not an angel. Scripture differs to this view plain and simple. If a man differs to scripture, then it is not scripture that should change is it?

T8.

I agree with what you are saying here:
jesus was send to earth with a message,he was called the messenger.
John the babtist was also send with a message,he also is a messenger.

Angels sometimes are send with a message,they also are messengers.
We also have a message to our brothers and sisters,we are also messengers.And so are the prophets.

wakeup.

[NickHassan]

Hi WU,
But not angels.

[Wakeup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2012,20:47)

Hi WU, But not angels.

Nick.

Whomsoever is send by God with a message is the messenger of God.
The angel that spoke to Moses is a messenger,send by God,with a message.

wakeup.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2012,10:00)

Hi t8, Jesus is called once a messenger [?angel] and that is enough for you to build on? You really think he is the ANGEL of the Lord despite Heb 1?

Nick if Jesus is called a messenger and the Messenger of the LORD is described as being different to the accompanying angels that are with him, then if you can't work that out, then I can't help you.

You are blinded by the racial meaning of angel such as cherub or seraph which blocks your view that if Jesus is a legitimate messenger and so is the Messenger of the LORD, then that makes it at least possible. But your view that it is impossible is not supported at least in scripture. There is nothing that I know of in scripture that demonstrates that Jesus was not the Messenger of the LORD. This remains open.

If you say it is impossible that Jesus cannot be the Messenger of YHWH while acknowledging that Jesus was certainly called a messenger in the OT, then again, I can't help you any further if your thinking process breaks down here.

Also, if you say that Jesus is not a messenger/angel while even one scripture says that he is, then you are either wrong or scripture is. How can it be otherwise?

[NickHassan]

Hi T8,
One verse is sufficient for you?
2Cor 13.1

[Proclaimer]

If you read carefully you will see that my stance is that it remains a possibility. So that would mean that one verse is not good enough for me would it not?

The comparison between the Messenger of the LORD and Jesus is quite striking and the fact that the Messenger of the LORD is special and commands angels more so. And the fact that men thought they saw YHWH when they saw this messenger ties in with the Image of the Invisible God.

So more than one verse is the description and we all know that Jesus was not called Jesus pre his partaking of the flesh.

I remain open to the possibility so that I am teachable and can take evidence for or against. It is part of the search for truth that I am on.

So one verse is not good enough for me. But if you are referring to Jesus being a Messenger as spoken in scripture, then yes one scripture is good enough to say that Jesus is the Messenger. To do otherwise is to reject that scripture which is what it appears you are doing. You are rejecting it or ignoring it. How else do you explain that you seem to be making this scripture a stumbling block. Is not ALL scripture inspired?

[NickHassan]

Hi T8,
Mighty angels have become to those in Christ ministering spirits.[heb1]
How could he be a mere angel?

[NickHassan]

hi t8,
2 Peter 2:11
Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

There are ministering spirits to those in Christ

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2012,11:24)

Hi T8, Mighty angels have become to those in Christ ministering spirits.[heb1] How could he be a mere angel?

That is for you to figure out Nick.

I know he is called a messenger and I have no conflicts with that one scripture and all others.

You appear to have a conflict with your theology in this matter. I tried to explain it, but you cannot understand for some reason.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2012,12:35)

hi t8, 2 Peter 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. There are ministering spirits to those in Christ

You still don't understand given this answer from you.

You have a conflict. One scripture calls him an angel, and these appear to say otherwise. How you reconcile that I do not know. I know how I reconcile it.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
Called an angel?
Are all messengers angels?
Is one verse enough for you to speculate from?

[Author]

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