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Hi jm,
Christ brought the Father to earth to visit His people. He had before dwelled with His Israelite people and at the end He again will dwell with His people on earth, but heaven will still be His Throne.In Christ now we are sitting at the right hand of God. The head of the body is there while the rest of the body is earthbound.
So nothing changes.
The Kingdom of God is in heaven and on earth.
We came to know of the knowledge of good and evil.”
Eating of that fruit produced a change in man as evidenced by his new awareness, the words of his mouth and his abnormal behaviours which God noticed and commented upon. Now he acted by his understandings.
uh-huh because..Genesis 4:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Hi jm,
You say
“Nick, where does it say in the bible that the Word is simple? Do you not take in what you read? Peter said of Paul, 'of which some things are hard to understand', not simple”Jesus did.
Matt 11
” 25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.26Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight”.
Matt 18
” 2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.”
and try 2Cor 11
” 1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. “
Dear Jahman,
In your post you wrote this line.
I would also dare say, that the struggle Jesus went through, was a division between his soul and spirit. He commend his spirit back to the Father, but his soul went down the other way.
Do you believe that there is a difference between the soul and the spirit within a man?
Hi H,
Heb 4
” 12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. “Hi jm,
You say
“uh-huh because..Genesis 4:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: '
So knowledge of good and evil makes it possible to consciously sin.” 25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight”.
Matt 18
” 2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.”
Likewise:1Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
The difference between the wisdom of this world and the wisdom of God, is the difference between head and heart knowledge. Head-knowledge stands in reference to self and exterior world..even the bible can be abused by this stance. Heart knowledge is to become as a little child, as in not knowing anything as one ought. Equally said elsewhere: ” He that thinks he is something, while he is nothing, he deceives himself.”
The kingdom of God is indeed within, Christ, our hope of glory is within. Inwardness implies the letting go of self in reference to the external world. Through partaking of his divine nature within (through faith, it is essential that you believe this is so) we are able to escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Only a innocence child of a non preconceived child is able to develope these inward perceptions.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Again, this scripture is talking about interior simplicity in Christ who is live in the spirit-man. Elsewhere said that “you be not soon removed from the simplicity (singleness) that is in Christ”.
Problem is, most of us are already removed from that simplicity, because we are more in love with ourselves and steeped in a soul-physical stance. Perhaps it could be said that we would rather spend our time here making verbage. than stay in that simplicity in is in Christ:)
Hi Jm,
You say
“The difference between the wisdom of this world and the wisdom of God, is the difference between head and heart knowledge. Head-knowledge stands in reference to self and exterior world..even the bible can be abused by this stance. Heart knowledge is to become as a little child, as in not knowing anything as one ought. Equally said elsewhere: ” He that thinks he is something, while he is nothing, he deceives himself.”But it is not head versus heart. Scripture says both our heart and mind must be renewed with the mind reeducated by the bread of life unto the mind of Christ.
Rom 12
” 1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
Eph 4
” 17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20But ye have not so learned Christ;
21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; “
1Cor 2
” 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.”
We do not feed on the mysticism and myths of men but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.
Hi jm,
2Cor 11
” 1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. ”
You say
“Again, this scripture is talking about interior simplicity in Christ who is live in the spirit-man. Elsewhere said that “you be not soon removed from the simplicity (singleness) that is in Christ”.I disagree.
It is speaking to those already established in Christ,
as all the books of Paul are,
and yet these are gullible
and hearing and
accepting from outsideAnother Jesus
Another spirit
Another gospelIn your post you wrote this line.
I would also dare say, that the struggle Jesus went through, was a division between his soul and spirit. He commend his spirit back to the Father, but his soul went down the other way.
Do you believe that there is a difference between the soul and the spirit within a man?
comingin, this may sound like a stretch but I'll tell you how I came to what I came too:)
In bible school, a professor who learned under Walter Martin and J.I. Packer (if your familiar) ..was telling me how (did not retain it verbatim) the soul and the spirit were fused as one and the same. The meaning behind “and man became a living soul”. Also confirmed in the N.T. “The first man Adam was made a living soul”
The garden epic, is said to be the age of innocence. Maybe we can say, the age of non-choice. Then the last man Adam was made a life-quickening spirit.
So in trying to rectify and estimate how, as nick point to one scripture..dividing soul and spirit..and elsewhere Paul prays that you may be preserved spirit, soul and body..how these things can be…
in that the last man Adam 'was made' a life-quickening spirit, became about through what I said earilier. So my judgement is that the soul and spirit are distinctively different, yet indivisibly the same. James says:
21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
And: Hebrews39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Our spirits are saved if we are born of Christ. Our souls are in a process of sanctification, or being saved. It is that which is in our new natures (spirit-man) that is able to save and sanctify our souls.
So James says w are to receive with meekness the engrafted, or already implanted Word, that is able to save our souls. And likewise are to believe to the saving of our souls.
So these things are different, but the present state of our soul, is in fact how we are spiritually. Our souls are to learn how to immerse itself in receiving with meekness the life of Christ in our born again creatures, so that we may become more and more conformed into the image of Christ.
When people say they want to go save souls, what they really mean is that they want to go save spirits, then the new creation can begin to work on saving the soul. In my biblical opinion.
Yes nick, there is actually a balance between inward and outward perceptions. Paul said that the inward man is renewed day by day…while we look not at the things which are seen, but at those things which are unseen. Knowledge of the written Word speaks of the Living Word. It's truth is the truth of the unseen Christ. Hence faith that works by love is crucial.
“that your faith may become effectual, through the acknowledgment of every good thing that is in you, in Christ Jesus” Philemon 1:6?
Hi jm,
The inner man is invisible and the state of his development will only be revealed at the return of the Master. We do well to be found busy working in the vineyard at that time, or giving his children the right food at the right time.
Our real life is hidden in Christ but we still live in the natural world as salt, or as a light on a hill for Christ and the eternal life available to all reborn in him.Quote (jahman @ Oct. 01 2006,22:49) You say
“He errored in his choice and the mixed fruit of good and evil entered him.”But scripture says
Gen 2
” 17But of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE OF good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. “There is a difference surely.
Nick, when I read the body of scripture, I do employ reasoning. Many say, as a result of this scripture that Adam died spiritually. It is certain he did not die physically right? I am more inclined to think that this 'fall' fell into the hardening of physicality and the physical senses began to dominate his spiritual senses. It appears to me that this is more in line with what actually happened. For reason says to me, if Adam died spiritually, he could have no more contact with a Spiritual God. No. God even communicated with Cain after the killing of his brother Abel.
We came to know of the knowledge of good and evil. Things are not of a nature of pure evil. Nor are things of a nature of pure good. Things are of a nature where these two influenciary powers are present. Just like life and death forces are present and at work throughout all that we call nature.
Dear Jahman,Here is the problem with your thinking. When Adam sinned, scripture plainly says that in the day he would surely die. It does not say after for before. When Adam sinned, he did become spiritually dead. He sold his soul unto sin. So when it speaks of being spiritually dead, it is speaking of the soul being sold unto sin. As for God being able to speak to mankind, there is only one way man can speak to God and that is through is Son. It is for this reason, the Father begat the Son, in the beginning, even before the heavens and the earth, the Father, begat his Son, the Word, the quickening Spirit.
Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
I put a link on the page where you can go and get scripture to post.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 17 2006,19:44) “He was borrowing this statement, it did not origin from him via the Holy Spirit.” Is anything written by Paul without the unction of the Spirit?
Every word is tested and pure and we should not fall into the trap of theology that we are greater than those words but need to submit to them in fear of the Awesome Creator Who is their source.
Every word Nick? Are you sure?Then how about being baptised into the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in Matthew… why then did the disciples blatantly disobey Christ's command and only baptise into Jesus Name and do you obey this passage and use the Trinitarian formula. Does anyone know the NAME of the Holy Spirit?
If 1 John 5:7-8 can be changed over time, what about other scriptures?
What about seeming incomplete verses like: Mark 14:51-52? Is this divinely inspired… if so can you apply its meaning to our life, what is it in the Bible for, does it mean anything, teach anything, reveal anything, does it make sense stuck in between the betrayal of Jesus and the trial of Jesus… please tell me if you know. If it was Mark – what was he doing almost naked when his Master was being led to be betrayed?
Seems like something is missing and what we have left is a part of the whole dialogue – cause it is certainly out of place. (are these divinely inspired words?)
What about the story of the Woman caught in the act of Adultery? Was that inspired by God, did John even pen those words? It is one of the passaged that the grace teachers get their doctrine from. Yet it is not even in the earlier manuscripts… is it God's word?
What about the great commission in totallity in Mark. That too is not in the early manuscripts – tell me how it got there if not in the original copies we have?
Paul sometimes said this is what I say, not the Lord, is that divinely inspired or personally inspired? and as stated prior, he uses poets from other religions and philosophies to come up with his philosophy of God and to deliver his Gospel message. Is this not what the Catholics do by using tradition and philosophy of the time, or the penetocostals do by quoting, via loose translation – without full context, what God has spoken. If I did that in this forum, would you cry… wolf, come out from her, unbeliever. Yet Paul can get away with it… because he is a so called Apostle. Why do we impose rules of study on ourselves when Paul and other simply did not use these rules – we make excuse for them in ways you would never excuse a student today. They new better and probably they did, but the rule must apply to all or it is not a rule that can apply.
One last thing and probably there is a simple answer but one I can't seem to work out: Peter cut off the ear of the servant of High Priest – to me it is strange that when they were looking for ways to accuse Peter or the Apostles, why this was never an issue. Like it was cleanly forgotten by all – wiped clean. Those that hated Jesus, and took every opportunity to cause trouble, and who disliked the disciples so much yet no mention of this incident is ever brought up – it is simply forgotten.
Gosh if my ear was taken off, what more would I need to accuse a person of being a sinner, an evil doer or an upstart. Does anyone have insight into this?
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Oct. 03 2006,01:35) As for God being able to speak to mankind, there is only one way man can speak to God and that is through is Son. It is for this reason, the Father begat the Son, in the beginning, even before the heavens and the earth, the Father, begat his Son, the Word, the quickening Spirit.
So God begat the Son in the beginning??? Gosh not only the Son but now the Logos, and the Quickening Spirit? Where does it say this in scripture?If we can only speak to God through the Son, how did Moses speak with God or Abraham for that matter. He revealed himself to them as Yawheh. Was that the Son or was it God revealing himself?
So God still does not have relationship with us then in person? And never talks to us except through through the Son? Why do we pray to the Father then – only as a formality, should we not pray to Jesus instead. If this is the case, then what good has Jesus done for humanity. If now we only have access to the Father through his Son when before the priest and prophets could speak to God directly? Was not what Jesus did for us, the very thing that gives us access to the throne of God. Is it what Christ did and revealed that give us access to God and relationship to “know” him who is true – The One True God. It says that God spoke through the prophets but in the last days he has spoken through his Son… is that to say He now no longer speak to us because it says “spoken” and that is in the past tense.
Great were all doomed!
Quote (Artizan007 @ Oct. 04 2006,06:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 17 2006,19:44) “He was borrowing this statement, it did not origin from him via the Holy Spirit.” Is anything written by Paul without the unction of the Spirit?
Every word is tested and pure and we should not fall into the trap of theology that we are greater than those words but need to submit to them in fear of the Awesome Creator Who is their source.
Every word Nick? Are you sure?Then how about being baptised into the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in Matthew… why then did the disciples blatantly disobey Christ's command and only baptise into Jesus Name and do you obey this passage and use the Trinitarian formula. Does anyone know the NAME of the Holy Spirit?
If 1 John 5:7-8 can be changed over time, what about other scriptures?
What about seeming incomplete verses like: Mark 14:51-52? Is this divinely inspired… if so can you apply its meaning to our life, what is it in the Bible for, does it mean anything, teach anything, reveal anything, does it make sense stuck in between the betrayal of Jesus and the trial of Jesus… please tell me if you know. If it was Mark – what was he doing almost naked when his Master was being led to be betrayed?
Seems like something is missing and what we have left is a part of the whole dialogue – cause it is certainly out of place. (are these divinely inspired words?)
What about the story of the Woman caught in the act of Adultery? Was that inspired by God, did John even pen those words? It is one of the passaged that the grace teachers get their doctrine from. Yet it is not even in the earlier manuscripts… is it God's word?
What about the great commission in totallity in Mark. That too is not in the early manuscripts – tell me how it got there if not in the original copies we have?
Paul sometimes said this is what I say, not the Lord, is that divinely inspired or personally inspired? and as stated prior, he uses poets from other religions and philosophies to come up with his philosophy of God and to deliver his Gospel message. Is this not what the Catholics do by using tradition and philosophy of the time, or the penetocostals do by quoting, via loose translation – without full context, what God has spoken. If I did that in this forum, would you cry… wolf, come out from her, unbeliever. Yet Paul can get away with it… because he is a so called Apostle. Why do we impose rules of study on ourselves when Paul and other simply did not use these rules – we make excuse for them in ways you would never excuse a student today. They new better and probably they did, but the rule must apply to all or it is not a rule that can apply.
One last thing and probably there is a simple answer but one I can't seem to work out: Peter cut off the ear of the servant of High Priest – to me it is strange that when they were looking for ways to accuse Peter or the Apostles, why this was never an issue. Like it was cleanly forgotten by all – wiped clean. Those that hated Jesus, and took every opportunity to cause trouble, and who disliked the disciples so much yet no mention of this incident is ever brought up – it is simply forgotten.
Gosh if my ear was taken off, what more would I need to accuse a person of being a sinner, an evil doer or an upstart. Does anyone have insight into this?
Hi A7,
I am not saying you cannot find the occasional fault in translation or even the rare addition but with the help of the Spirit who wrote those words through men we can sort them out.
What else compares?
Ps 12
” 6The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.”
Ps 119
” 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path”Jn 17
“17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.”Psalms 19:8
The law of the LORD [is perfect], reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;Hebrews 7:18
18 On the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 [for the law made nothing perfect]; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.Gal 3:13
13 Christ redeemed us from the [curse of the law], having become a curse for us–for it is written, “Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree”How then can a perfect Law be a curse?
Hi A7,
I am troubled that you are seemingly having doubts about scripture and the men who wrote it and finding fault now with the bible.Looking at your last post
“Psalms 19:8
The law of the LORD [is perfect], reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;Hebrews 7:18
18 On the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 [for the law made nothing perfect]; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.Gal 3:13
13 Christ redeemed us from the [curse of the law], having become a curse for us–for it is written, “Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree”How then can a perfect Law be a curse?”
The law is perfect and is full of the wisdom of God.
Man is not and can never be in his own strength.
The law could never make man perfect by obedience to the letter.
It showed men they were incapable of reaching godly standards.
They were burdened with trying to fulfill an impossible task.
And they had no ability to satisfy it's demands for perfection.
And they mostly missed the Spirit of that law.
God had to show men their helplessness without grace.
Thus instead of a blessing it was as a curse.
But the answer to the curse too was written in the law.
Salvation came through a new covenant written in blood.
A scapegoat, one of our race, a perfect lamb was given to us.
And we can be reborn into his triumph over the Law.
All now have the choice to accept or reject this free offer.
The law remains as a historical standard and reference point.
The new positive Law of the Spirit is now written on our hearts.
Condemnation and death resulting from failure are taken away.
And the grace to fulfill the new easy demands is freely given.
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