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Hi DK,
Archangels are conspicuous by their absence in Revelation . Are they the elders?Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.Revelation 7:13
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?Any theory that they were just symbolic is tarnished by the fact that on two occasions individual elders are said to have spoken with John.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 18 2008,07:27) Hi DK,
Archangels are conspicuous by their absence in Revelation . Are they the elders?Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.Revelation 7:13
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?Any theory that they were just symbolic is tarnished by the fact that on two occasions individual elders are said to have spoken with John.
Ahh..I see what you are saying…Nick…so you think they are literal…would that not make everything literal that was also seen by John…and were not these 24 elders seen in heaven?
Hi DK,
John saw and heard many amazing things.
Some were in symbolic form and some not.
But symbols do not dialogue with men.DK…..the book of revelation was symbolized, read the first verses of it, the words Signified it, means he symbolized the book. Check out the word. The book of revelations (can not ) be understood without knowing the symbols. That why scholars for 2000 thousand years can't understand it. And make all kinds of guess as to what it says.
If you go the the Newton project you will find a good explanation of the symbols used in the book, Newton gave much of his life devoted to scripture and prophesy was one He did a lot of research on. Check it out i think you will like it.
peace to you and yours……..gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 18 2008,08:26) Hi DK,
John saw and heard many amazing things.
Some were in symbolic form and some not.
But symbols do not dialogue with men.
They did in revelation..i.e. the 24 elders, babylon the great, the merchants of the earthQuote (Gene Balthrop @ July 19 2008,05:14) DK…..the book of revelation was symbolized, read the first verses of it, the words Signified it, means he symbolized the book. Check out the word. The book of revelations (can not ) be understood without knowing the symbols. That why scholars for 2000 thousand years can't understand it. And make all kinds of guess as to what it says. If you go the the Newton project you will find a good explanation of the symbols used in the book, Newton gave much of his life devoted to scripture and prophesy was one He did a lot of research on. Check it out i think you will like it.
peace to you and yours……..gene
Will do brother GeneHi brothers Georg, Dk, Nick and Gene,
Excellent debate on 'Heaven' without any friction or judgment.
May God bless you all
AdamHi everyone.
There's a lot of “do people go to heaven” topics popping up. I was surprised to find that many on here don't believe anyone goes to heaven.I started a thread on it. Years ago. It's quite large.
Hi all,
Check this out…it will strengthen your faith!Quote (Lightenup @ July 21 2009,17:39) Hi all,
Check this out…it will strengthen your faith!
Greetings LU….. Interesting….I have no doubt his visions were real and his experience genuine….My question is how do we know it is of God ?Hi theodorej,
You ask a good question. I know that God can give us a wise and discerning heart. We are to test the spirits to see if they are from God, also look for the fruit from the person, take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
I don't recall anything that is in conflict with scripture in his story but maybe I missed something. You're right…it is interesting. Many people have SDE's and we need discernment because satan is a deceiver and confuses and presents us with the counterfeit. That is why we need discernment. I am not going to build a doctrine on someone's SDE experience but I do find it comforting and it does increase my faith. Here are some passages that speak of discernment and testing things:
Phil 1:9-11
9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment,
10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ;
11 having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
NASUPs 119:66-73
66 Teach me good discernment and knowledge, For I believe in Your commandments.
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray, But now I keep Your word.
68 You are good and do good; Teach me Your statutes.
69 The arrogant have forged a lie against me; With all my heart I will observe Your precepts.
70 Their heart is covered with fat, But I delight in Your law.
71 It is good for me that I was afflicted, That I may learn Your statutes.
72 The law of Your mouth is better to me Than thousands of gold and silver pieces.
Yodh. 73 Your hands made me and fashioned me; Give me understanding, that I may learn Your commandments.
NASUProv 2:3-13
3 For if you cry for discernment, Lift your voice for understanding;
4 If you seek her as silver And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will discern the fear of the Lord And discover the knowledge of God.
6 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk in integrity,
8 Guarding the paths of justice, And He preserves the way of His godly ones.
9 Then you will discern righteousness and justice And equity and every good course.
10 For wisdom will enter your heart And knowledge will be pleasant to your soul;
11 Discretion will guard you, Understanding will watch over you,
12 To deliver you from the way of evil, From the man who speaks perverse things;
13 From those who leave the paths of uprightness To walk in the ways of darkness;
NASU1 Kings 3:11-12
11 God said to him, “Because you have asked this thing and have not asked for yourself long life, nor have asked riches for yourself, nor have you asked for the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself discernment to understand justice,
12 behold, I have done according to your words. Behold, I have given you a wise and discerning heart, so that there has been no one like you before you, nor shall one like you arise after you.
NASU1 John 4:1-6
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
NASURev 2:2
2 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
NASU2 Cor 10:5
5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
NASUHave a great day theordorej,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ July 22 2009,04:25) Hi theodorej, You ask a good question. I know that God can give us a wise and discerning heart. We are to test the spirits to see if they are from God, also look for the fruit from the person, take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
I don't recall anything that is in conflict with scripture in his story but maybe I missed something. You're right…it is interesting. Many people have SDE's and we need discernment because satan is a deceiver and confuses and presents us with the counterfeit. That is why we need discernment. I am not going to build a doctrine on someone's SDE experience but I do find it comforting and it does increase my faith. Here are some passages that speak of discernment and testing things:
Phil 1:9-11
9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment,
10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ;
11 having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
NASUPs 119:66-73
66 Teach me good discernment and knowledge, For I believe in Your commandments.
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray, But now I keep Your word.
68 You are good and do good; Teach me Your statutes.
69 The arrogant have forged a lie against me; With all my heart I will observe Your precepts.
70 Their heart is covered with fat, But I delight in Your law.
71 It is good for me that I was afflicted, That I may learn Your statutes.
72 The law of Your mouth is better to me Than thousands of gold and silver pieces.
Yodh. 73 Your hands made me and fashioned me; Give me understanding, that I may learn Your commandments.
NASUProv 2:3-13
3 For if you cry for discernment, Lift your voice for understanding;
4 If you seek her as silver And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will discern the fear of the Lord And discover the knowledge of God.
6 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk in integrity,
8 Guarding the paths of justice, And He preserves the way of His godly ones.
9 Then you will discern righteousness and justice And equity and every good course.
10 For wisdom will enter your heart And knowledge will be pleasant to your soul;
11 Discretion will guard you, Understanding will watch over you,
12 To deliver you from the way of evil, From the man who speaks perverse things;
13 From those who leave the paths of uprightness To walk in the ways of darkness;
NASU1 Kings 3:11-12
11 God said to him, “Because you have asked this thing and have not asked for yourself long life, nor have asked riches for yourself, nor have you asked for the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself discernment to understand justice,
12 behold, I have done according to your words. Behold, I have given you a wise and discerning heart, so that there has been no one like you before you, nor shall one like you arise after you.
NASU1 John 4:1-6
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
NASURev 2:2
2 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
NASU2 Cor 10:5
5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
NASUHave a great day theordorej,
Kathi
Thanks Kathi……. The scriptures lend themselves to the validity of an experience ,however,they make no reference to a presense in the heavenly realm of any flesh with exception for Jesus who sits at the right hand of the father….The mind of man is at enmity with God and who could know his heart….We are blessed with an imagination that is fully capable of trancending reality and in a lot of cases it does just that….. The heaven I would think that is going to be our reward will be here on earth with a goverment that will be of God and adminstered by the called out ones (eg.144,000)Jesus will be our king of kings and Lord of Lords and for 1000 years satan will be bound….At the end of thousand years he will be loosed for a short season and all those who have died and not known God will be raised from the dead and given an opportunity to live again in Gods government….sad to say there will be those who refuse…the consequences for that will be they experience death and cease to exist for eternity.
I don't see any Harps or clouds for me or any euphoric experiences only a manesfestation of a perfect plan that will afford us all an experience of the love and mercy of a great and powerfull God…He Kathi! Thank you for bringing that to us. A wonderful testimony. If we believe in the Bible, then we can see that nobody has ascended to Heaven except He that came from Heaven, Jesus Christ. So can I then believe what He said? I do question it? I do not think that we will get the answer right now, though. We do not know about what the Spiritual Life is like. So I will say this, I will take it with a grain of salt and we will see ONE DAY SOON, for me probably sooner then I think, since I am 71 years young. I will not come back though to tell you about it. Time is just a vapor. I truly hope that He is right, because we would all like to experience such wonderful Life. God does tell us that eye has not seen and ear has not heard the things prepared for them who loves Him. There is even a Song with those lyrics. I practiced to sing to do a Solo, I never got to sing it.
Peace and Love IreneHi guys and gals,
If you think that video was interesting listen to these interviews of Richard Sigmund who went on a tour of heaven while he was dead for 8 hours. There are many stories on the internet about SDE's and all with a slightly different experience. Listening to this made me want to be very careful about what I think about. Just start listening on the “Monday” broadcast and you probably want to listen to each day's broadcast. Wouldn't it be interesting for these people that claim this experience to get together. I wonder if there is a support forum for them…hmmm?http://www.sidroth.org/site….br=rad_
Enjoy,
KathiQuote (theodorej @ July 28 2009,04:23) however,they make no reference to a presense in the heavenly realm of any flesh with exception for Jesus who sits at the right hand of the father.
Revelation 1:10
On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet…2 Corinthians 12.1-7
1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—
4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.
5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.
6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.
7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.Matthew 17:3
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with JesusQuote (t8 @ July 29 2009,00:06) Quote (theodorej @ July 28 2009,04:23) however,they make no reference to a presense in the heavenly realm of any flesh with exception for Jesus who sits at the right hand of the father.
Revelation 1:10
On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet…2 Corinthians 12.1-7
1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—
4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.
5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.
6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.
7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.Matthew 17:3
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus
Greetings t8……OK! which one of those scriptures puts a fleshly carnal man in the presense of God….Visions are a product of our imagination and so are voices….God deals with the spirit of man an communicates through voices and visions as well as conscience…I would think….what do you think??P.S. Through Television one can be all over the world and experience a culture or an event while sitting on the couch…
Quote (theodorej @ July 28 2009,09:13) Quote (t8 @ July 29 2009,00:06) Quote (theodorej @ July 28 2009,04:23) however,they make no reference to a presense in the heavenly realm of any flesh with exception for Jesus who sits at the right hand of the father.
Revelation 1:10
On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet…2 Corinthians 12.1-7
1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—
4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.
5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.
6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.
7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.Matthew 17:3
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus
Greetings t8……OK! which one of those scriptures puts a fleshly carnal man in the presense of God….Visions are a product of our imagination and so are voices….God deals with the spirit of man an communicates through voices and visions as well as conscience…I would think….what do you think??P.S. Through Television one can be all over the world and experience a culture or an event while sitting on the couch…
Hi Theodorej,The scripture does say:
Quote whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows What seems to be consistent to NDE's is that people leave their body of flesh and blood during their experience and see their body as being separated from their current state.
Do you understand that there is an inner man within our outer man? The outer man is our flesh and blood body, the inner man is what is missing when you see the outer man lying in the casket.
It seems that our present condition is very limiting to our inner man but it is all we know. We are restricted to those limits now but won't be after we die. It is going to be A-mazing!
God bless,
KathiKathi and others! Since I am so sensitive, I too have experienced several Spirits that belonged to my Friends. I was very close to my closest Friend that died. We had discussed may times what would happen when we die. Neither one of us, like pain, (who does) so after she died, and I did not even know right the way. I was sitting in my Room and I was thinking of Her. I have never experienced that much love before. The whole room seemed to be filled with it. I felt Her Spirit. Later that day they called me and told me that She had died. When I asked Her in my mind, how was it when you died, She said not to bad. Then She left and never returned.
The same thing happened with a priest friend of ours. He seems to ask for forgiveness from me. Since I know that there is a Spirit world, even in the Atmosphere of the earth. We do know that Satan is the God of this world. So I believe it can happen with all Spirit. God will protect those that are His. And all is possible with God. And I believe that all will be possible if God wants it, with Humans that have died, that belong to God. Don't you feel a lot of Love when you pray to our Heavenly Father? I do, sometimes more then other. What do you believe and do you have any experience like this too? Would really appreciate your comments.
Peace and Love Irene
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