- This topic has 713 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 11 months ago by
.
- Posts
@t8
you said:If Jesus is Wisdom, then he was brought forth and previous to that, wisdom resided in God as an attribute of God. But just as important is that when wisdom was brought forth, it did not take away from the wisdom that God has. The same line of thinking was espoused by a number of early church fathers with respect to logos. One fire starting another fire.
I am aware of the ‘one fire starting another fire’ thought to express a multiplication instead of a division of substance. I believe that there always was another fire within the fire, so to speak…another life within the Father as an offspring (a living attribute if you will). In other words, another living being wasn’t started, another living being was simply brought forth.
It is possible to use a word normally understood as a non-sentient attribute to refer to the sentient offspring within a person, such as a woman who has a “life” growing within her or an offspring being the ‘strength’ of the parent.
For example:
Gen 49:3
Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:Do you see how the offspring is called his father’s might and the beginning of his father’s strength? So, my point is, just because we think of ‘wisdom’ as an attribute or ‘strength’ as an attribute, doesn’t mean that it can’t represent an offspring.
Furthermore, you said:
People say that Jesus is not Wisdom because it is described as feminine. My point was to simply say that after being brought forth, Wisdom is the workMAN at God’s side.
I know that you think that a feminine noun becoming a masculine noun is somehow significant here to indicate a change in substance but I believe that ‘wisdom’ becoming a workMAN is STILL the wisdom of God as the only begotten God, who once was within the Father/unbegotten God, and then brought forth to work alongside the Father.
His ‘begetting’ brought the Son out to work alongside the Father, so to speak, it didn’t ‘create’ a son.
@t8
I have to call this one out. You do not believe that the Father is the only true God. You believe that he along with Jesus is.
But this one true God spoken of here sent his son.
You clearly do not believe this important scripture and truth that is eternal life.
I believe the Father is the only true unbegotten God and the Son is the only true begotten God. So, in that sense, I believe the Father is the only true God.
But do you believe that he is the only God as the text says?
Yes / No
Be honest, your answer is no.
If it is yes, then you lose the debate right.
You need to add in a word to make it fit your view. Satan could add in one word too, such as False. That one word changes everything. So please answer the question using the verse as it is written, not as you would want it to be.
@t8
My answer stands as is. If you think that there is only one true unbegotten God who we call the Father and only one true begotten God whom we call the Son, then just say that you agree to that. If not, then show me how you disagree and why.
@t8
Would you please delete the comments of bodhitharta and terraricca as they are not allowed here according to the specifications of a private discussion such as this, thanks.
Bodhitharta and terraricca please respect the guidelines.
@t8
Once again:
If you think that there is only one true unbegotten God who we call the Father and only one true begotten God whom we call the Son, then just say that you agree to that. If not, then show me how you disagree and why.Kathi, you are asking me to delete their comments because it is against the rules, yet you break the rules by not answering yes or no to my question which by the way can be answered with a yes or no.
By this I know your answer is of the evil one.
Matthew 5:37
All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.Yes or no Kathi, please comply with the rules in the same way you have asked terr and bod.
@t8
Yes, the Father that Jesus speaks about and knows and has always been a part of, is the one true God. The Father that you teach about is different than the one that Jesus speaks about though.Now about those who break the rules of a debate and post anyway, are you afraid to act as the moderator of your own forum?
@t8
Interesting read…Chap. XXIX.—Of the Christian Religion, and of the Union of Jesus with the Father.
Some one may perhaps ask how, when we say that we worship one God only, we nevertheless assert that there are two, God the Father and God the Son: which assertion has driven many into the greatest error. For when the things which we say seem to them probable, they consider that we fail in this one point alone, that we confess that there is another God, and that He is mortal. We have already spoken of His mortality: now let us teach concerning His unity. When we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate each: because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father, since the name of Father886 cannot be given without the Son, nor can the Son be begotten without the Father. Since, therefore, the Father makes the Son, and the Son the Father, they both have one mind, one spirit, one substance; but the former887 is as it were an overflowing fountain, the latter888 as a stream flowing forth from it: the former as the sun, the latter as it were a ray889 extended from the sun. And since He is both faithful to the Most High Father, and beloved by Him, He is not separated from Him; just as the stream is not separated from the fountain, nor the ray from the sun: for the water of the fountain is in the stream, and the light of the sun is in the ray: just as the voice cannot be separated from the mouth, nor the strength or hand from the body. When, therefore, He is also spoken of by the prophets as the hand, and strength, and word of God, there is plainly no separation; for the tongue, which is the minister of speech, and the hand, in which the strength is situated, are inseparable portions of the body.
We may use an example more closely connected with us. When any one has a son whom he especially loves, who is still in the house, and in the power890 of his father, although he concede to him the name and power of a master, yet by the civil law the house is one, and one person is called master. So this world891 is the one house of God; and the Son and the Father, who unanimously inhabit the world, are one God, for the one is as two, and the two are as one. Nor is that wonderful, since the Son is in the Father, for the Father loves the Son, and the Father is in the Son; for He faithfully obeys the will of the Father, nor does He ever do nor has done anything except what the Father either willed or commanded. Lastly, that the Father and the Son are but one God, Isaiah showed in that passage which we have brought forward before,892 when he said:893 “They shall fall down unto Thee, and make supplication unto Thee, since God is in Thee, and there is no other God besides Thee.” And he also speaks to the same purport in another place:894 “Thus saith God the King of Israel, and His Redeemer, the everlasting God; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” When he had set forth two persons, one of God the King, that is, Christ, and the other of God the Father, who after His passion raised Him from the dead, as we have said895 that the prophet Hosea showed,896 who said, “I will redeem Him from the power of the grave:” nevertheless, with reference to each person, he introduced the words, “and beside me there is no God,” when he might have said “beside us;” but it was not right that a separation of so close a relationship should be made by the use of the plural number. For there is one God alone, free, most high, without any origin; for He Himself is the origin of all things, and in Him at once both the Son and all things are contained. Wherefore, since the mind and will of the one is in the other, or rather, since there is one in both, 133both are justly called one God; for whatever is in the Father897 flows on to the Son, and whatever is in the Son descends from the Father. Therefore that highest and matchless God cannot be worshipped except through the Son. He who thinks that he worships the Father only, as he does not worship the Son, so he does not worship even the Father. But he who receives the Son, and bears His name, he truly together with the Son worships the Father also, since the Son is the ambassador, and messenger, and priest of the Most High Father. He is the door of the greatest temple, He the way of light, He the guide to salvation, He the gate of life.
found here http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.iii.ii.iv.xxix.html
Interesting that I have been saying essentially the same thing but never read this before tonight.
@t8
This understanding, I also share with the writer who lived during the time of the early church:O Christ, Thou Saviour of the world, merciful Creator and Redeemer, the only offspring from the Godhead of the Father, flowing in an indescribable2123 manner from the heart of Thy Parent, Thou self-existing Word, and powerful from the mouth of Thy Father, equal to Him, of one mind with Him, His fellow, coeval with the Father, from whom at first2124 the world derived its origin! Thou 330dost suspend the firmament,2125 Thou heapest together the soil, Thou dost pour forth the seas, by whose2126 government all things which are fixed in their places flourish. Who seeing that the human race was plunged in the depth2127of misery, that Thou mightest rescue man, didst Thyself also become man: nor wert Thou willing only to be born with a body,2128 but Thou becamest flesh, which endured to be born and to die. Thou dost undergo2129 funeral obsequies, Thyself the author of life and framer of the world, Thou dost enter2130 the path of death, in giving the aid of salvation.
from here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.iv.i.html
You do not share this belief, t8…this Christ, you do not know. His Father that is written about who is ‘coeval’ with the Son, you do not know. If those who are written about in the quote are the ones that must be known for eternal salvation, then you do not know them and therefore do not have eternal salvation. It is not that you wonder about them, no, you actually deny them this identity. There is a difference in not being sure that these things are so with actually denying that they are so. It is your denial that will defeat you. That is my concern…for your salvation.
@t8
Here is just one of the many mentions of Jesus as the only begotten God in the writings of the early church fathers. This is found in the Constitutions of the Holy Apostles:XVII. This baptism, therefore, is given into the death of Jesus:2923 the water is instead of the burial, and the oil instead of the Holy Ghost; the seal instead of the cross; the ointment is the confirmation of the confession; the mention of the Father as of the Author and Sender; the joint mention of the Holy Ghost as of the witness; the descent into the water the dying together with Christ; the ascent out of the water the rising again with Him. The Father is the God over all; Christ is the only-begotten God, the beloved Son, the Lord of glory; the Holy Ghost is the Comforter, who is sent by Christ, land taught by Him, and proclaims Him.
from here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.ix.iv.ii.html
This is good too, @t8 :
Chap. VI.—Almighty God Begat His Son; And the Testimonies of the Sibyls and of Trismegistus Concerning Him.
God, therefore, the contriver and founder of all things, as we have said in the second book, before He commenced this excellent work of the world, begat a pure and incorruptible Spirit, whom He called His Son. And although He had afterwards created by Himself innumerable other beings, whom we call angels, this first-begotten, however, was the only one whom He considered worthy of being called by the divine name, as being powerful in His Father’s excellence and majesty. But that there is a Son of the Most High God, who is possessed of the greatest power, is shown not only by the unanimous utterances of the prophets, but also by the declaration of Trismegistus and the predictions of the Sibyls. Hermes, in the book which is entitled The Perfect Word, made use of these words: “The Lord and Creator of all things, whom we have thought right to call God, since He made the second God visible and sensible. But I use the term sensible, not because He Himself perceives (for the question is not whether He Himself perceives), but because He leads519 to perception and to intelligence. Since, therefore, He made Him first, and alone, and one only, He appeared to Him beautiful, and most full of all good things; and He hallowed Him, and altogether loved Him as His own Son.” The Erythræan Sibyl, in the beginning of her poem, which she commenced with the Supreme God, proclaims the Son of God as the leader and commander of all, in these verses:—
“The nourisher and creator of all things, who placed the sweet breath in all, and made God the leader of all.”
And again, at the end of the same poem:—
“But whom God gave for faithful men to honour.”
And another Sibyl enjoins that He ought to be known:—
“Know Him as your God, who is the Son of God.”
Assuredly He is the very Son of God, who by that most wise King Solomon, full of divine inspiration, spake these things which we have added:520, “God founded521 me in the beginning of His ways, in His work before the ages. He set me up in the beginning, before He made the earth, and before He established the depths, before the fountains of waters came forth: the Lord begat me before all the hills; He made the regions, and the uninhabitable522 boundaries under the heaven. When He prepared the heaven, I was by Him: and when He separated His own seat, when He made the strong clouds above the winds, and when He strengthened the mountains, and placed them under heaven; when He laid the strong foundations of the earth, I was with Him arranging all things. I was He in whom He delighted: I was daily delighted, when He rejoiced, the world being completed.” But on this account Trismegistus spoke of Him as “the artificer of God,” and the Sibyl calls Him “Counsellor,” because He is endowed by God the Father with such wisdom and strength, that God employed both His wisdom and hands in the creation of the world.
From here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.iii.ii.iv.vi.html?highlight=only,begotten,god#highlight
@t8
a must answer question:
Will you please moderate your own forum by deleting the two comments of bodhitharta and terarricca since they went against your own rules for a “by invitation only” debate? Btw, I have asked you more than once to do so.@t8
you said:
An Antichrist is one who denies that the one true God is the Father of his son Jesus Christ.
The one true God is a Father who always had a Son, Jesus Christ. Therefore, the Son has always been a part of the one true God. The one true God includes the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Now, once again I post your must answer question:
@t8
a must answer question:
Will you please moderate your own forum by deleting the two comments of bodhitharta and terarricca since they went against your own rules for a “by invitation only” debate? Btw, I have asked you more than once to do so.Kathi, it is not like I am the only disagreeing with you. It is pretty much everyone that knows your doctrine is false. Here are some examples:
I have already went through this T8 but Lightenup simply cannot betray her senses even if they are wrong
kathi,is confused with God almighty and the son that is a god for being the son of the almighty God the father,
just as if your father is king you are only a prince as a son ;cannot be king for the job is taken got it, but Kathi will never get that for her live depend on it ,that God the father and God the son are twinsDenying that Jesus is the son of God is done blatantly by some religions such as Islam, and subtly by some doctrines such as the Trinity and your doctrine.
A son is the offspring of a father. We are explicitly taught that there is one true God the Father, and his son who is truly begotten of the one true God.
What you have done is merge the son into God as well, thus denying his status as son, and also denying that the Father is the one true God.
Simple as that. You teach false doctrine.
@t8
you said:
Kathi, it is not like I am the only disagreeing with you. It is pretty much everyone that knows your doctrine is false. Here are some examples:
I have already went through this T8 but Lightenup simply cannot betray her senses even if they are wrong
kathi,is confused with God almighty and the son that is a god for being the son of the almighty God the father,
just as if your father is king you are only a prince as a son ;cannot be king for the job is taken got it, but Kathi will never get that for her live depend on it ,that God the father and God the son are twinsYes, I understand that a muslim disagrees with me in regards to who is Christ. If he agrees with your doctrine, wouldn’t that worry you? I also understand that another member disagrees with me. That doesn’t concern me one bit because I have tested his desire to receive truth in the simple matter of the proper and simple use of some commonly used English words. It was like it went in one side of his brain and out the other. The fact that I can find much evidence of like-mindedness in the early church father’s teaching is what I am supported by and the fact that I cannot find evidence of like-mindedness in the early church father’s teaching on what you proclaim (i.e. John 1:1) should be what concerns you. I would think that it is a red flag for you to get the support of a muslim. I am thankful to not receive the support of muslims in regards to my Christology. Thank you for removing their interruptions and for quoting their words so that I can explain why their lack of support is really a good thing for what I understand. It shows that their beliefs are from a different spirit. When I receive the support of a muslim towards my Christology, I will then start to re-examine my understanding. Do you agree with the muslim understanding of Christ? If not, then why do you use a muslim’s disagreement with my understanding as something that should be a sign for me to reconsider my understanding? Oh, you probably didn’t think about that…
@t8
you said:Denying that Jesus is the son of God is done blatantly by some religions such as Islam, and subtly by some doctrines such as the Trinity and your doctrine.
It is kinda funny that you are now mentioning the denial of Jesus as the Son of God by the Islam religion considering you are quoting a muslim as if you are getting support by one. That is just a side note…something to think about. I wonder if he will interrupt here again and speak against you? I doubt you are much of a threat to him though.
Anyway, I fully believe that Jesus has always been the Son of the one true God and thus an eternal part of Him…an offspring part. You on the other hand seem to believe that Jesus was once a non-sentient attribute of the only true God. That, is not a true son…an attribute evolves to be a son??? Is that what a true son is? Jesus was never just an attribute. How many of your sons were attributes of yours before they evolved into sons? You see, I am claiming that God always had within Him, His own son…a sentient person. I have had 4 sons, from the moment they were within me, they were sons, not non-sentient attributes.
Therefore, it is you that doesn’t believe that Jesus is really a true son. No sons were merely non-sentient attributes before they became sentient sons. Please rethink your Christology.
Yes, I understand that a muslim disagrees with me in regards to who is Christ. If he agrees with your doctrine, wouldn’t that worry you?
If a muslim says that there is one true God, then I agree. If he says the one true God does not have a son, then I disagree that his God is YHWH.
If a Christian says that there is one true God, then I agree. If she says that the one true God comprises of two persons, then I also disagree for the same reason above because I believe that God has a son.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Learn this verse and believe it. It will help you immensely. It is eternal life to know this God and his son.
If anyone says or implies that God has not a son, then they are antichrist.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
