Proclaimer can’t win the debates

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 22 2011,01:46)

TO All, I marvel that t8 has involved himself in two debates with WJ. t8 has said numerous times here that Jesus is God qualitatively. This means that Jesus is God! t8 will need to give up his “qualitative” explanation if he is going to be consistent and have a chance against WJ. If he doesn't then he has already defeated himself. KJ

According to Isaiah the other member of the Trinitarians (WJ, KJ, IS) The Word was definately not qualitatively God

From your comment KJ, you appear to undermine him by admitting that 'theos' can be used in a qualitative sense.

Thanks for the indirect support.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 15 2011,04:30)

Another straw man being burnt to the ground. t8 Do you believe the Bible is the scriptures? That Bible that you claim so much as being Gods word was copied translated and preserved by the RCC since the early first century. Not to mention you believe in a lot of the Catholic doctrine yourself lile the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus, so I guess that makes them the Father of your faith also. The more you look at it the more you realize that Arius and his followers have rejected the truth for centuries. Your doctrine liines with the JWs which stinks of Arianism. Actually they are the modern day “Arians”. WJ

WJ, I believe what scripture says.
You then label this Catholic and that Arian.

But I just believe that there is one God the Father, that he sent his son into the world. He died, was resurrected and and as a result the price for our sins was paid, if we are willing to accept it.

I suppose next I am a Mormon because I believe in the existence of apostles? Or I am a Jew because like them, I believe in one God and not a Triune one.

I have to say that your posts are getting quite humorous. They show that you are getting desperate and will try anything to dent my armour.

All I hear is tink tink tink. The sound of your arrows bouncing of my shield of faith. I just need to wear the full armour of God and I will be safe.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 15 2011,20:41)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 15 2011,04:24) Yes t8 But no Trinitarian says that he is “less God” qualitatively do they? “Those that are “honest” would admit that the word “God” in John 1:1c qualitatively says the Word is everything that God is?” “The “DISHONEST” make the claim that the Word in John 1:1c is “less qualitatively” than God” You can't dispute that point. For US, there is one God the Father. For YOU, there is one God the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.

t8

And you can't dispute the point that The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are qualitatively in nature, equally “God”.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2011,04:16)

The sons of God are mentioned two or three times in Job. Who are they? NIV One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. NLT One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the LORD, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them. ESV Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. NASB Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

Hi t8

Well the Hebrew text you quote does not read they are “angels” ( mal'ak) but rather the are “sons of God” (ben)

The Hebrew word for “angels” is mal'ak and the Hebrew word for “sons of God” is ben.

Please present a scripture that says “ben” is “mal'ak”!

You can do better than this can't you. Are you going to continue teaching what is not in the scriptures by continuing to promote your false doctrine?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2011,04:23)

I suppose next I am a Mormon because I believe in the existence of apostles? Or I am a Jew because like them, I believe in one God and not a Triune one.

Hi t8

Exactly, so then your statement…

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 08 2011,18:35)

The more you look at it WJ, the more that the Trinity Doctrine looks and smells like a Catholic doctrine that is designed to get you aligned to it, thereby making the Catholic Church the father of your faith, if indeed the Trinity Doctrine is your faith and creed.

Is entirely circular isn’t it.

I could say that your doctrine smells like the JWs the Catholics and the Mormons and it looks like they are the Father of your faith, couldn’t I?  

WJ

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 17 2011,04:20)

t8 And you can't dispute the point that The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are qualitatively in nature, equally “God”. WJ

Yes God and Jesus can be called theos/elohim qualitatively as can man, angel, even Satan.

Your point?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 17 2011,04:32)

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2011,04:16) The sons of God are mentioned two or three times in Job. Who are they? NIV One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. NLT One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the LORD, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them. ESV Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. NASB Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. Hi t8 Well the Hebrew text you quote does not read they are “angels” ( mal'ak) but rather the are “sons of God” (ben) The Hebrew word for “angels” is mal'ak and the Hebrew word for “sons of God” is ben. Please present a scripture that says “ben” is “mal'ak”! You can do better than this can't you. Are you going to continue teaching what is not in the scriptures by continuing to promote your false doctrine? WJ

I doubt that there exists a sentence in scripture that says “ben is malak”. That aside, I am not sure where you want to go with this, but I will play along and see where we end up.

We both believe that Malachi was a man right?
I think we can both agree that he must be a son of God because those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God according to John and that Malachi wrote scripture thereby proving that he was being led or guided by the Spirit as all scripture is inspired by God.

Yet the name Malachi is the Hebrew word for angel.
Is this a paradox for you?

So here is a clear demonstration that a son is also referred to as an angel.

I can give you more examples. Do you wish to pursue this further?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 17 2011,04:38)

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2011,04:23) I suppose next I am a Mormon because I believe in the existence of apostles? Or I am a Jew because like them, I believe in one God and not a Triune one. Hi t8 Exactly, so then your statement… Quote (t8 @ Mar. 08 2011,18:35) The more you look at it WJ, the more that the Trinity Doctrine looks and smells like a Catholic doctrine that is designed to get you aligned to it, thereby making the Catholic Church the father of your faith, if indeed the Trinity Doctrine is your faith and creed. Is entirely circular isn’t it. I could say that your doctrine smells like the JWs the Catholics and the Mormons and it looks like they are the Father of your faith, couldn’t I?   WJ

The difference is WJ, that I can show you from scripture what I believe i.e., a bunch of direct quotes from scripture. I do not have to add anything to them. This doesn't qualify me to be of any denomination because I do not adhere to any of their creeds to the letter.

Whereas you believe a creed which is not written in scripture thereby qualifying you as an adherent to that creed and a pupil of those who wrote it and administer it.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 16 2011,11:32)

Hi t8 Well the Hebrew text you quote does not read they are “angels” ( mal'ak) but rather the are “sons of God” (ben) The Hebrew word for “angels” is mal'ak and the Hebrew word for “sons of God” is ben.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
  Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
  Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
  or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
  and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Keith, do you suppose there existed mankind before the earth was even founded?  Who else would these “sons of God” be if not angels?  I'm not even following you and Jack's line of reasoning here because it seems SOOOOOO obvious.

Add in the “sons of God” which INCLUDED Satan, and I'm at a complete loss what you guys are even thinking.

Add in the “sons of God” who thought HUMAN WOMEN were good looking, and I'm simply bewildered.  If Genesis 6 speaks of the sons of Seth, who were also HUMAN, then why make a point of distinguishing sons of GOD from daughters of MANKIND?

I just don't get you sometimes.  

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2011,17:21)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 17 2011,04:20) t8 And you can't dispute the point that The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are qualitatively in nature, equally “God”. WJ Yes God and Jesus can be called theos/elohim qualitatively as can man, angel, even Satan. Your point?

t8

Once again you are evading the question and point.

You have admitted Jesus “Alone” is the Only Begotten Son yet you keep throwing Jesus in with the rest.

Are men, angels, and even Satan “qualitatively” equal to God in nature?

Are men, angels, and even Satan the “exact representation of Gods being”?

These are yes or no questions t8. Everyone here can clearly see you are diverting answering the questions

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2011,18:07)

Whereas you believe a creed which is not written in scripture thereby qualifying you as an adherent to that creed and a pupil of those who wrote it and administer it.

t8

Ha ha. You have your own creeds written on this sight. A creed is “a system of religious belief; a faith: people of many creeds and cultures”.

Your system of beliefs is right out of the JWs textbook who is the modern day church to the Arians.  

You also have creeds t8 for I have yet to see you change any of your tightly held onto beliefs that stem from your own “creed”.

WJ

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

TO ALL,

The translation of the second 'theos' as 'a god' is NOT a possibility. I am convinced that the second “theos” is DEFINITE and not qualitaitive. The Logos is “the God” in His IDENTITY in the sense that Eve is “the Adam” in her IDENTITY.

Quote

If both nominatives are articular, or if one is articular and the other is a proper name or a pronoun, then both are definite, and are interchangeable. Consider: Mt. 16:16: σὺ εἶ ὁ χριστός. It makes no difference whether σὺ (you) or ὁ χριστός (the Christ) is treated as the subject. The sentence is equally true either way.

http://www.ntgreek.net/lesson14.htm

The ONLY other possibility is that the second 'theos' is qualitative which means that the Logos is the same UNCREATED essence as His own Father.

Quote

An Orthodox Bible Commentary notes: “This second theos could also be translated ‘divine’ as the construction indicates a qualitative sense for theos. The Word is not God in the sense that he is the same person as the theos mentioned in 1:1a; he is not God the Father (God absolutely as in common NT usage) or the Trinity. The point being made is that the Logos is of the same uncreated nature or essence as God the Father, with whom he eternally exists. This verse is echoed in the Nicene Creed: 'God (qualitative or derivative) from God (personal, the Father), Light from Light, True God from True God… homoousion with the Father.'”[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_1:1

This is why t8 can't win the debates with WJ for when t8 says that Jesus is God qualitatively he is saying that Jesus is the same UNCREATED essence as His Father.

“Who being the RADIANCE of His glory and the EXACT representation of His ESSENCE (homoousion).”

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 18 2011,05:02)

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2011,17:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 17 2011,04:20) t8 And you can't dispute the point that The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are qualitatively in nature, equally “God”. WJ Yes God and Jesus can be called theos/elohim qualitatively as can man, angel, even Satan. Your point? t8 Once again you are evading the question and point. You have admitted Jesus “Alone” is the Only Begotten Son yet you keep throwing Jesus in with the rest. Are men, angels, and even Satan “qualitatively” equal to God in nature? Are men, angels, and even Satan the “exact representation of Gods being”? These are yes or no questions t8. Everyone here can clearly see you are diverting answering the questions WJ

Hi Keith,

t8 can't win. You got him. He should give it up.

Jack

[Proclaimer]

Oh yeah KJ, I should give up.

That is funny. Really it is.

Just apply advice that you should take and pass it onto others instead.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 18 2011,05:14)

t8 Ha ha. You have your own creeds written on this sight. A creed is “a system of religious belief; a faith: people of many creeds and cultures”. Your system of beliefs is right out of the JWs textbook who is the modern day church to the Arians.   You also have creeds t8 for I have yet to see you change any of your tightly held onto beliefs that stem from your own “creed”. WJ

Quote my creed WJ?
Is it different to the points below?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 18 2011,06:55)

The translation of the second 'theos' as 'a god' is NOT a possibility. I am convinced that the second “theos” is DEFINITE and not qualitaitive. The Logos is “the God” in His IDENTITY in the sense that Eve is “the Adam” in her IDENTITY.

If you believe that, then you are saying that to the detriment of the Father because it excludes him and says that the Logos is THE God.

Scholars admit that if you add the definite article to John 1:1c (even though it is not plainly there) then you exclude the Father.

It's a bit like saying that Obama is THE president of the USA. It excludes others from being president at the time you make that statement.

Have another go KJ.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 18 2011,05:02)

Are men, angels, and even Satan “qualitatively” equal to God in nature?

Depends on the context or situation WJ.
Theos is not always applied to someone because of nature. It could also be authority from what I can tell.
Those who held the seat of Moses for example had that authority, I am not sure that this refers to divine nature at all.

Satan is identified as the theos of this age. Does that make him qualitatively equal to the Father. Only in the sense that they are both the God of something. Of course we know that the Father is supreme and above all and Satan is no match for him whatsoever.

Are sons of the Most High who are called theos equal to God in nature? Qualitatively speaking if they represent God, then I would have thought that God is greater.

Is a being who partakes in divine nature equal to God when you measure God's divine nature against that of the being? Don't know. In one sense yes if it is the same nature. In another sense no, when you recognise that divine nature comes from God and that he is the source of that nature.

You could ask yourself if Eve is equal to Adam? In the sense that they both share human nature, then that nature is the same and perhaps they are equal in that sense. Is Adam greater because that nature came from him? Well in that sense perhaps, and hence the reason why all humanity fell once he fell.

As you can see WJ, to answer your question you need to again apply context as with most things

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 18 2011,05:02)

Are men, angels, and even Satan the “exact representation of Gods being”?

I would have to say no they are not exact representations. There is no scripture that says any man for example is the exact representation of God.

Men can only reflect in part, that is what I think. Whereas Jesus Christ represents God in fullness, not in part. Perhaps the glorified body of Christ as a whole may represent God in full, but my guess is that she probably reflects Jesus in full and Jesus reflects God in full.

If we were the exact representation of God, then we could probably sit at his right hand side and reign with him on his throne. Instead we are seated with Christ and reign with him.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 18 2011,06:55)

This is why t8 can't win the debates with WJ for when t8 says that Jesus is God qualitatively he is saying that Jesus is the same UNCREATED essence as His Father.

KJ, you lack understanding.

Eve is the same essence as Adam, yet Adam was first not Eve.
Eve came from him.

Jesus said, “if God was your Father, then you would believe that I came from him”.

You obviously do not believe what Jesus said because you believe that Jesus is God instead.

But scripture says that he is the image of God and God is his head.

But you say that he is God himself. Your doctrine is alien to scripture.

[mikeboll64]

Good solid points, t8.

[Author]

Posts