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I was chatting to my friend to day about this subject and was interested to see afresh the passage in Daniel 10. I have always been taught to see this as a passage on Daniel's doing spiritual but as we studied it together i noticed a few things.
First of all nowhere does it say that Daniel was doing spiritual warfare. In fact prayer is not mentioned but i feel that it is implied through out but more clearly in verse 12.
I have read this chapter and even used it to speak about spiritual warfare, that is what Daniel was doing…I thought. Was it not his many days of fasting and prayer that caused the destruction of the King of Persia, actually on a closer look, Daniel was not doing spiritual warfare but he was fasting and praying and setting his mind to gain understanding of the revelation that had been given to him in verse one.
He had no clue, so it seems, as to what had been going on in the spiritual realm. All he knew was that something terrible had been shown to him and he was determined to find out the meaning of that thing he had seen.
In saying all this, I also note that the angels of God were fighting something and had been held up by the prince of Persia (Whoever he is), but this was not on behalf of Daniel's prayers, because that was not even in his mind. This it happened according to the will of God. God had given the dream to Nebuchadnezzar about the Kingdoms that would rise and fall and I believe that God was doing just as he said he would do.
He raises up Kings and disposes of them. Here we see just that – after the prince of Persia would come the prince of Greece. Some people say that they are the demonic principalities over a city… that we need to do prayer walks, climb mountains and pray over a city for God to destroy the strong man etc. But i do not see this as a part of Jesus’ prayer lessons or the apostles in that matter.
Phillip the Evangelist did not have a prayer vigil in Samaria, a prayer walk around the city… two week campain of storming heaven and shaking hell before he went into that city, he did not bind the Samarian strong man, nor did he loose the Hosts of heaven to work in that place. No, the scripture says he simple preached the Gospel of the Kingdom and all 'hell' broke loose so to speak. Stuff happened, the place was turned upside down. Lets consider this: How many hours do we spend in warfare meetings, paying money to have seminars on the stuff and all we seem to get is people coming out with nice feelings, but still not going out and preaching the gospel and still not seeing Satan's hold on peoples minds destroyed.
What are others thoughts…
Good points A7,
We are surely to stay within our designated authority. But there is an enemy who is organised and clever. No one can read Mark without seeing how much of the work of Jesus was in battling Satan. We are told we will crush him under our feet. One of our weapons against him is the shoes of the gospel. If we follow Jesus we will work as he worked surely ?Hey NH
I agree with you, in so far as I can see Jesus battling with Satan and daily destroying his works, but nowhere do I see him going up to the top of a mountain to bind the strongman, calling to the heavens to have the prince of the area state his name nor do I see him telling his disciples to go out and do prayer walks through the town, cursing Satan's power and releasing the power of God to fight for them – neither do I see the disciples in the NT doing this. For so long as Satan can keep us busy doing things like these and not being in contact with the people or speaking out the gospel the longer he can keep his grasp on humanity.
Surely these things (destruction of the kingdom of darkness) will simply follow a person who is obedient to the directing of God. Jesus could not be hurt so long as he did what his Father told him to do, went where he was meant to be, and he walked in the power of his God given authority.
Was it not out of a dedicated life of prayer to his Father that he was given authority to do the things he did? He did not have to spend hours in prayer, binding and loosing when the time came to do a miracle, confront a demon power or deal with the wrong mindset of those who followed and wanted to pull him down. Instead he spoke the word and it was done. No lengthy ordeals – but rather a short confrontation of a higher power destroying the power of a lesser authority. His strength lay in the fact that he was in communion with His Father daily and only did what he was told to do and what he saw his Father do.
He went on to tell us in John 14:12, that greater works shall we do because he is gone to the Father. The challenge to me is simple… will we believe and see firsthand the ways of God at work through our lives or only know of his miraculous dealing in the past yet see little evidence of lives set free today.
Do we believe that there is power in the Gospel of Jesus Christ to change and transform lives, physically, intellectually and spiritually? Therein lies all the warfare – I do not decry prayer one bit – I do not do enough, nor do I dismiss pleading our case before God as the disciples did when Peter was put into jail, but if we will be obedient and walk in what we are supposed to then I believe we will see that power to set free those who are under the ruler of this world and his kingdom and it won’t be hard work.
What do you think?
Hi A7,
You make some very good points. But the authority was totally given to Jesus and not reliant on his life of prayer. It was given anyway by his Father. I am sure he sought the help and guidance of the Spirit of God while seeking solitude in the desert and in prayer. He needed to grow in wisdom and knowledge to be able to face each new challenge in the kingdom of darkness and we can learn from him and follow him.
Even Michael, who is a far greater being than any natural man, treated Satan with great respect[Jude 9] but many fools now do not.Hi ,
Paul was given a messenger from Satan to buffet him and keep him from exalting himself.[2Cor 12.7]Yes, true indeed.
2 CORINTHIANS 10:3, 4:
“Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.”Quote (david @ May 14 2006,06:49) Yes, true indeed. 2 CORINTHIANS 10:3, 4:
“Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.”
Hi david
“strongly entrenched things”??
That has got to be NWT.
“Fortresses” 3794.from fortify, a stronghold. This relates, surely, to the spiritual defences of Satan and not natural worldly “things”Quote “strongly entrenched things”??
That has got to be NWT.Why does it have to be?
Are beliefs not strongly enternched things?
Romans 14 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that believes any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, then you do not charitably.
Destroy him not, with thy meat, Christ died for him.
Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serves Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.Hi TJS,
David will clarify, I hope, whether or not it came from the New World Translation or not.Any slight deviation from accuracy in scriptural translation can lead to an avalanche of false doctrine.
I use the NW translation, and when I use different Bibles, I have always tried to make it clear which translation I'm using.
Your NASB has “fortresses.” Most Bibles on the gateway Bible thingy have “strongholds” in this place.
My Bible has “strongly entrenched things.”
I looked up “entrenched” on my computer dictionary. The second defintion is:
“establish (a military force, camp, etc.) in trenches or other fortified positions.”So, the overturning “strongly entrenched things,” would mean to overturn “things” strongly ’established in fortified positions.’
NASB has “fortresses.”
Fortress means:
“a military stronghold, especially a strongly fortified town fit for a large garrison.”With this defintion in mind, look at the scripture again and what it is telling us:
2 CORINTHIANS 10:3, 4:
“Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things.”***
Anyway, as I was trying to say:
2 CORINTHIANS 10:3,4 (New International Version)
“For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.”(NASB)
“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,
for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.”How do we demolish these fortresses?
Quote Of course, The Holy Spirit is still working to cleanse as many as will believe.
Do you really think that this is refering to fortresses made of earth?oops wrong quote in last post.
Should have been;
Quote How do we demolish these fortresses?
Do you really think that this is refering to fortresses made of earth?I don't, I think it is refering to fighting beliefs.
Hi ,
Fortresses rise above the ground and are a good defensive position requiring careful planning to bring them down. The prince of this world has been defeated and we are to capture his false doctrinal strongholds in the minds of men.[2Cor 10.5]
A trench is a ditch.Quote oops wrong quote in last post. Should have been;
Quote
How do we demolish these fortresses?Do you really think that this is refering to fortresses made of earth?
I don't, I think it is refering to fighting beliefs.
Yes, of course I think it's refering to beliefs. Nick had made a point of taking us off track to attack the Bible I use and subtely attack or lessen anything I say. Nick is fond of using the NASB, if I am correct. And that Bible has “fortresses” in that spot. So, I was kind of trying to make the point that it is not literally “fortresses” that we are fighting, but yes, strongly entrenched things, or more specifically, strongly entrenched beliefs.
Yes, Nick a trench is a ditch. But the word “entrench” is not a ditch, is it? It means to establish a fortified position. And people do do this with their beliefs.
So it seems this scripture is not speaking of warefare with literal fortresses, but makes the point of saying that a Christians warefare is different. “For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.” (NIV) It makes a point of saying that our “weapons” are different, not the weapons of the world or of the flesh.Hi ,
Are our weapons meant to be used to tear down one bible translation to uphold another or is this not the work of carnal man?
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