spirit

[kenrch]

Some Organizations claim that man has no spirit. They claim that the word spirit means wind or breath, and indeed the definition of the word spirit means wind or breath. By scripture in Ecclesiastes that contain the word spirit and using the difinition wind or breath they say the evidence is conclusive.

Below I've substituted the definition of spirit in the scripture.

H7307
רוּח
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): – air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the [wind, breath] of man, whether it goeth upward, and the [wind, breath] of the beast, whether it goeth downward to the earth?

Ecc 7:8 Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof; and the patient in [wind, breath] is better than the proud in [wind, breath].

Ecc 7:9 Be not hasty in thy [wind, breath] to be angry; for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.

Ecc 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the [wind,breath] to retain the [wind, breath]; neither hath he power over the day of death; and there is no discharge in war: neither shall wickedness deliver him that is given to it.

Ecc 10:4 If the [wind,breath] of the ruler rise up against thee, leave not thy place; for gentleness allayeth great offences.

Ecc 12:7 and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the [wind,breath] returneth unto God who gave it.

Ecc. 3:21 is the verse that these organizations use to defend their doctrine that man has no spirit. And indeed in that scripture the definition does fit far better than in any other scripture. However given the definition of the word (spirit) in most if not all of scripture the definition wind, breath does not follow the flow of the scripture and indeed makes no sense in scripture. Keeping in context of the scriptures that use the word spirit in the book of Ecclesiastes the definition wind, breath should not be considered the meaning in Ecc.3:21.

Ecc. 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
The word breath here is one of the definitions of spirit and is used correctly for indeed man and animal breath the same air. When either man or animal fail to breath then their flesh will die. Their brain and all other organs will cease and the spirit not the breath as in this scripture will return to God who gave it .

Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Indeed, the flesh of animal or humans is made of dust and to dust it will return.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
The dead know not anything. No surprise here if your dead then your brain and all of your flesh is DEAD their is no blood flowing

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
If your dead then your flesh can't sin or love. Why do people think you have to be flesh to love or to know anything. God our Father is SPIRIT and surely is able to love! What doesn't our Father know? All these scriptures is speaking of the flesh that is in the dark kingdom of Satan where death reigns but we if Christ abide in us are of the Kingdom of Light. The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit (not our breath or wind) that we are the children of God!

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (not wind or breath).
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

These organzitions have a lot of truth but none of their truth has anything to do with salvation. Which is the MOST IMPORTANT thing of all!

If you don't have a spirit then how are you going to worship God who is Spirit.

Has anyone ever seen a person that glowed. It's like their flesh was trying to peel off. Like the caterpillar trying to come out of it's cocoon as a beautiful butterfly. Thing is if your spirit doesn't move (providing you have one) then I don't believe you can see with the spirit. Oh Yes the Lord is my Shepherd who shows me where is the green pasture. And I do not want!

[david]

To not commit the fallacy of oversimplification and for clarity, I think it should be mentioned that the Hebrew word ru´ach and the Greek pneu´ma, which are often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings.

All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion.

The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to
(1) wind,
(2) the active life-force in earthly creatures,
(3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and that causes him to say and do things in a certain way,
(4) inspired utterances originating with an invisible source,
(5) spirit persons, and
(6) God’s active force, or holy spirit.

The Greek pneu´ma (spirit) comes from pne´o, meaning “breathe or blow,” and the Hebrew ru´ach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru´ach and pneu´ma, then, basically mean “breath,” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. (Compare Hab 2:19; Re 13:15.) They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit. (Compare Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879; Brown, Driver, and Briggs’ Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Friedrich, translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. VI, pp. 332-451.)
All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.

david

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Jan. 22 2006,07:49)

To not commit the fallacy of oversimplification and for clarity, I think it should be mentioned that the Hebrew word ru´ach and the Greek pneu´ma, which are often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and that causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired utterances originating with an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit. The Greek pneu´ma (spirit) comes from pne´o, meaning “breathe or blow,” and the Hebrew ru´ach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru´ach and pneu´ma, then, basically mean “breath,” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. (Compare Hab 2:19; Re 13:15.) They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit. (Compare Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879; Brown, Driver, and Briggs’ Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Friedrich, translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. VI, pp. 332-451.) All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects. david

That's great David. After all those words of what this means and that means, there is only one question. Do you have a spirit? Do you have a means of telling if you are a child of God?

Does the Spirit bear witness with “YOUR spirit”, (whatever the word might mean) that you are a child of God. Tell me does this scripture mean anything else? All Jws are educated as to what the words mean but that won't give them salvation. The bible is a spiritual book, it's not written by men. The Word of God is written by God.
If you ask for the Holy Spirit God will give His Spirit to you.

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

[Woutlaw]

kenrch,

Acts 5:32, Peter says that God gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey him!!!!

If we obey the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, we will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit by faith.

[kenrch]

Quote (Woutlaw @ Jan. 22 2006,20:09)

kenrch, Acts 5:32, Peter says that God gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey him!!!! If we obey the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, we will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit by faith.

Thanks witoutlaw, certainly no matter how much you ask, God is not going to give His Spirit to one who disobeys. Jesus said ask (I would assume He's not talking to murders etc) and you would receive the Holy Spirit ( Luke 11:13 ).

[Sultan]

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 22 2006,19:07)

Quote (Woutlaw @ Jan. 22 2006,20:09) kenrch, Acts 5:32, Peter says that God gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey him!!!! If we obey the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, we will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit by faith. Thanks witoutlaw, certainly no matter how much you ask, God is not going to give His Spirit to one who disobeys. Jesus said ask (I would assume He's not talking to murders etc) and you would receive the Holy Spirit ( Luke 11:13 ).

Great points guys. The bible tells us that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. 1Cor. 6:19.

[Sultan]

David,
Do you have the Spirit of God living in you?

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Jan. 22 2006,07:49)

To not commit the fallacy of oversimplification and for clarity, I think it should be mentioned that the Hebrew word ru´ach and the Greek pneu´ma, which are often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and that causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired utterances originating with an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit. The Greek pneu´ma (spirit) comes from pne´o, meaning “breathe or blow,” and the Hebrew ru´ach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru´ach and pneu´ma, then, basically mean “breath,” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. (Compare Hab 2:19; Re 13:15.) They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit. (Compare Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879; Brown, Driver, and Briggs’ Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Friedrich, translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. VI, pp. 332-451.) All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects. david

Hi David,

This is the spirit I'm talking about.
(3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and that causes him to say and do things in a certain way,
I like that but what is the person's heart. The spirit is a force that issues from a person. The spirit comes from a person and causes' (allows) him to do things in his own way. What is this spirit and where does it come from? Oh! that's right it comes from the person. So could we say that this is the person's spirit. The part of the person that does things in his own “personal” way. In short his personality that is invisible. The innward man that paul talks about. The spirit of man! Is God's Spirit the force that causes the “certain” way God does things? Is God's Spirit His character, personality, His very being? Or just a force, like electricity as you say?
If man has a spirit as your definition states, (and that's what it does) then wouldn't Our Father's Spirit be the same. His Spirit bears witness with our spirit!
Isn't this fun?

[david]

The Bible makes clear that Jehovah “is a spirit,” and he also has a spirit. Several times the expression “Jehovah's spirit” appears in the Bible, and of course many more times we hear of Jehovah spirit or holy spirit.

So those are two meanings of the words spirit.
Then, theres another one you just mentioned: the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and that causes him to say and do things in a certain way.
I never said the spirit was “just a force” kenrch. But in the Bible, that is one of the ways that the word “spirit” is used quite often, as the active life force in earthly creatures, both humans and animals.

Trying to combine all the definitions into one meaning, or thinking they're the same, when the Bible uses them differently, or confusing one meaning with another is a mistake.

As I've said:
All of the meanings of the word “spirit” refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion.
But there are more than one use of that word in the Bible.

david.

[david]

What is the figurative heart, Kenrch?

Here are some thoughts:
Motivation, the impelling force behind our conduct, is a further vital aspect of the inner person, as represented by the “heart.” Thus, those making contributions for the construction of the tabernacle “came, everyone whose heart impelled him.” (Ex 35:21, 26, 29; 36:2) Wicked Haman “emboldened himself” (literally, filled him as to his heart) to scheme against the Jews. (Es 7:5, ftn; Ac 5:3) Hebrews 4:12 explains that God’s word of promise, like a sharp sword, is able to “discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.” Jesus, too, indicated that from the heart springs the motivating force behind our conduct, whether it is good or bad. (Mt 15:19; Lu 6:45) With a view to our cultivating right motivations, the Bible warns us against allowing our dealings with others to be tainted by a desire for selfish gain (Jude 16) or permitting love of money, a craving for riches, to determine our course of life. (1Ti 6:9, 10; Pr 23:4, 5) Rather, it encourages us to cultivate genuine love for God as a basis for our service to him (1Jo 5:3; De 11:13) and self-sacrificing love as a guide in dealing with fellow believers (Joh 15:12, 13); it also encourages us to make a practice of loving others of our fellowmen as we do ourselves (Lu 10:27-37; Ga 6:10). Obviously, the cultivating of such motivations involves use of the thinking faculties.—Ps 119:2, 24, 111.

The condition of our figurative heart is reflected in our disposition, our attitude, whether proud or humble. (Pr 16:5; Mt 11:29) Our feelings and emotions are also part of that inner man. These include love (De 6:5; 1Pe 1:22), joy (De 28:47; Joh 16:22), pain and sorrow (Ne 2:2; Ro 9:2), hate (Le 19:17). Thus the heart can be “anxious” (Isa 35:4), “pierced” by affliction (Ps 109:22), ‘melted’ by fear of distresses (De 20:8). In the Christian Greek Scriptures, when the mind is mentioned along with the heart, “mind” refers to the intellect while “heart” refers to the emotions, desires, and feelings of the inner person. For example, Jesus said: “You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.” (Mt 22:37) He thus showed that a person’s desires, feelings, and emotions must express his love for God, but he must also express that love by the way he uses his mental faculties, as by taking in knowledge of God and Christ.—Joh 17:3.

In the great majority of its occurrences in the Scriptures, the word “heart” is used figuratively. It is said to stand for “the central part in general, the inside, and so for the interior man as manifesting himself in all his various activities, in his desires, affections, emotions, passions, purposes, his thoughts, perceptions, imaginations, his wisdom, knowledge, skill, his beliefs and his reasonings, his memory and his consciousness.”—Journal of the Society of Biblical Literature and Exegesis, 1882, p. 67.

So, in the Scriptures the figurative heart is not confined to being the seat of affection and motivation, nor is it limited to the intellect. “Among the Semites . . . all that was peculiar to man, in the category of feelings as well as intellect and will, was attributed to the heart.” It is “the sum total of the interior man as opposed to the flesh, which is the exterior and tangible man.”—The Metaphorical Use of the Names of Parts of the Body in Hebrew and in Akkadian, by E. Dhorme, Paris, 1963, pp. 113, 114, 128 (in French).

Not mere outward appearances but what a person really is inside is what counts with God, who is an examiner of hearts. (Pr 17:3; 24:12; Ps 17:3; 1Sa 16:7) So the Scriptures counsel: “More than all else that is to be guarded, safeguard your heart [the whole inner man], for out of it are the sources of life.” (Pr 4:23) And Christian wives are urged to give primary attention, not to external adornment, but to “the secret person of the heart in the incorruptible apparel of the quiet and mild spirit, which is of great value in the eyes of God.”—1Pe 3:3, 4.

In a number of cases in the Bible where the term “heart” occurs, it evidently focuses attention on the thinking faculties, but not in a sense that would isolate such faculties from the rest of what makes up the inner person. Moses urged the Israelites, “You must call back to your heart [“must recall to your mind,” ftn] that Jehovah is the true God.” And later he told them, “Jehovah has not given you a heart [“mind,” ftn] to know.” (De 4:39; 29:4) Showing that at times the heart, as referred to in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Greek Scriptures, includes the intellect are instances where it is associated with “thinking” (Mt 9:4), “reasoning” (Mr 2:6), “understanding” (1Ki 3:12; Mr 6:52), and “knowledge” (Pr 15:14).

[david]

God’s Heart.

Jehovah reveals that he has affections and emotions, the Bible describing him as having a “heart.” At the time of the Flood “he felt hurt at his heart,” regretting that men had rejected his righteous rule, making it necessary for him to turn from being their benefactor to becoming their destroyer. (Ge 6:6) By contrast, God’s “heart” ‘rejoices’ when his servants are faithful. (Pr 27:11) Such a thing as the cruel offering up of humans as burnt sacrifices, practiced by some of the deviating Israelites, never had come up into God’s heart, showing also that he could not be a God of eternal torment.—Jer 7:31; 19:5.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Woutlaw @ Jan. 22 2006,20:09)

kenrch, Acts 5:32, Peter says that God gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey him!!!! If we obey the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, we will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit by faith.

Hi woutlaw,
Those who have obeyed God are those who have repented and believed in the Son of God and been baptised into Christ.

They have obeyed God including the instruction of Jesus that we”must be born again”.

They will receive the promised Spirit if they ask their new Father.

[NickHassan]

and another.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Num 16
” 22And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?”

All human spirits belong to God and return to Him.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
In another thread RM said man does not have a spirit.

[RokkaMan]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2010,08:27)

Hi, In another thread RM said man does not have a spirit.

I never said man doesn't have a spirit.
Re-read what I said.

I said man's spirit comes from God.

[NickHassan]

Hi RM,
Yes it is of the breath of God[Gen2.7] and that breath returns to God[Ecc3 19-21]

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2010,08:27)

Hi, In another thread RM said man does not have a spirit.

Wow nick what a cheap shot

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (RokkaMan @ June 21 2010,08:59)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2010,08:27) Hi, In another thread RM said man does not have a spirit. I never said man doesn't have a spirit. Re-read what I said. I said man's spirit comes from God.

Nick………Why do you seek to character assassinate people, what spirit (intellect) is driving you? Deal with the subject (not) the person . No one has made you a judge of anyone here Nick. IMO

peace and love………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 22 2010,02:11)

Quote (RokkaMan @ June 21 2010,08:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 21 2010,08:27) Hi, In another thread RM said man does not have a spirit. I never said man doesn't have a spirit. Re-read what I said. I said man's spirit comes from God. Nick………Why do you seek to character assassinate people, what spirit (intellect) is driving you? Deal with the subject (not) the person . No one has made you a judge of anyone here Nick. IMO peace and love………………gene

all

look what some off us think what SPIRIT means

Pierre

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